Dr. Cheryl D. Miller

What can I say about Dr. Cheryl D. Miller that hasn’t already been said? Her groundbreaking work as a designer in the 1980s and 1990s has paved the way for Black designers in this industry. Her first-hand knowledge and experience is sought after by colleges and universities all over the country. And now, in this season of her life, she is being celebrated and awarded as a pioneering figure in the field of contemporary graphic design by AIGA, The One Club, Cooper Hewitt, IBM, and many others. Honestly, I couldn’t think of a better guest to have for this episode!

Cheryl and I talked about her recent work as a design educator, and she shared her newfound dedication to writing and why it’s so important to transition from oral tradition to scholarship. She also shared her interest in new tech, and spoke about mentoring younger designers who are blazing their own trails in the industry. Lastly, we explored what success looks like for her now, and she talked about what’s coming up next as her passions for art, writing, and design intersect. Sit back and enjoy this thought-provoking conversation with a true design legend.

(And thank you all for 500 episodes of the podcast!)

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Maurice, I am Cheryl D. Miller.

Maurice Cherry:
No introduction needed.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
No. No, I barely have a website, and now it’s come down to just, “Google that, okay? And I’m not the basketball player.” There are three of us, and I think there’s a psychologist and a basketball player. “Just put in Cheryl D. Miller, and that’s it.” That’s it in a nutshell. “Just Google, Cheryl D. Miller.”

Maurice Cherry:
How is 2023 going so far?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
2023 is going really, really well. And I say that I’ve been granted much favor and grace through the pandemic, and it’s continuing. And 2023 has just expanded with new platforms, new vision, new sharing, that really all has been birthed from our pandemic season. It’s going really well. My projects… I’ve been a professor at several universities, I’m now with three. And that’s a unique experience, because everyone that’s working with me is developing this hybrid pedagogy. And I say the only thing that’s left for me to explore with this is that I’ll hologram into my classrooms next. So somebody has that figured out next. I’ll be lecturing via hologram in the Metaverse. I don’t… I would say soon.

Maurice Cherry:
So you’re at Howard, you’re at UT Austin, ad ArtCenter, right? ArtCenter College of Design in Pasadena?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yes. All three.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah. And I’m crossing my fingers. I’ve been talking with University of Connecticut UConn, because it’s in my geography. I’ve wanted to do something locally. I might be with them in the fall as well. Since pandemic, I have carried four universities at a time.

Maurice Cherry:
Light work for Cheryl Miller.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, outside of that, do you have any big goals or projects that you are working on now?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Well, yeah. I’ve dedicated myself to writing the rest of way out. I have a lot of things to write, Maurice. And I don’t want to talk too much about the writing, but I’m writing crazy. And one of the things that I do pride myself on, I do pride myself on a few things, that is, I don’t compile footnotes. My work, I make footnotes. So my revelation, my development of scholarship, I am creating conversation that I’m hoping they will be, my footnotes and the things I write, finding proof for my revelations, I’m leaving a trail of breadcrumbs. I will never write as many books as footnotes that I will leave to my scholarship.

That’s one of the things that I really, really believe in that our community, which I represent the BIPOC, indigenous community with being African-American, but a woman of many, many colors. And we must write, we must publish, but we can’t do that if we don’t have content. So my work is, I want to make sure that I leave as many footnotes and content as possible. And that doesn’t always mean that it’s in the form of a book. So I’m putting up my YouTubes, my lectures, recordings, all these things that if you study the things that I’m leaving behind, those that are really writing and researching have footnotes that they can create and compile for their books and so forth. We can’t write if we don’t have content.

And one of the things that I always contend is that I think Bond House is a hundred and a few years old. I’ve lived two thirds of that history. So my lived experience must be documented, which is much different than compiling footnotes out of the library. But you can’t do that if you don’t have content. I’m leaving content. Valuable, I know what’s in the card catalogs, I know what I’ve experienced, I know what I’ve lived through. I don’t compile footnotes in my work. I create them. So my lived experience, my lived history, I’ve been an eyewitness to a lot of things, I’ve known a lot of people. So writing that out in different forms, which is really my scholarship and revelation, I’m creating footnotes. And then I’m documenting those notes in places where if you’re going to really going to do the work, you’ll find Cheryl Miller. You’ll find Cheryl Miller found this out. You’re going to find Cheryl Miller’s research.

So I’ll be lucky if I get maybe three books out. But making sure the ingredients for you all to write, that’s been a big part of my work, which is… I’m in a sacred project of collecting Black graphic design history that’s in collections with Stanford University and Cooper Union Herb Lubalin Center. It’s sacred work, because I find deceased Black designers and estates. I’m working with families that know that their loved one had some crazy kind of career, and it’s all in a box in the attic or in the basement, and they don’t know what to do with that ephemeral. And usually, I show up giving them a place to have their work preserved and cataloged. So with that, that’s really important, because we can’t write a history if it’s all oral tradition and lost and dry rotting in somebody’s attic or basement.

And I’m meeting so many families. I have a daughter, I won’t call her name. I have one I’m meeting this afternoon. I’ve worked with Sheldon Dixon’s daughter, I’ve worked with Dorothy Hayes’s niece. They all tell me these incredible stories and trust these sacred boxes that I will take care of them. And thus far, Stanford has received the concept of this without charge. That’s what they do. They bring in collections, they preserve art. I think they have MLK papers. This is what they do. And some people say, “Well, why didn’t you take it to HBCU,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Stanford will preserve the work freely for us.

So I’ve given everyone an invitation. Some people have wondered my motive. My motive is, “Okay. Well, you keep that stuff in your attic if you want. Or you have an opportunity for somebody to come by, pick it up, and you have a name and a catalog annotation. You have your own numbers. You don’t come underneath Cheryl Miller. This is not the umbrella. You have your own note. You have your own archive. You have your own collection. And it’s being preserved.” So we started with, I don’t know, somewhere between 40 and 60 invitations. And it is sincere, and it’s real. And I think the ones that are really moving me are the ones of estates where the designer is dead.

And I can’t tell you. Like my conversation with Dorothy Hayes’s niece, she says, “Thank God for you. I inherited everything. My aunt left me everything. And I haven’t had a clue what to do with it.” It’s sacred, because I listened to estate members, those who have inherited. I hear the stories of, “my dad,” “my aunt,” “Thank God it’s not going to be lost. I don’t have to toss it out. I have no idea what I was going to do with this.”

So it’s really an honor to work with the families who tell me their oral traditions and give me their boxes of goodies. And there’s all kinds of things. There are all kinds of things that we have a culture of. See, I’ve been at this since I was 17. And we have this culture of saving things in case something big happens. Okay?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
In case somebody gets discovered, or it’s hidden or lost. Who knew footnote on the back of a match cover, right? And these boxes are full of these things for a rainy day. Oh my God, you talking about the Black designers, they’re full of, “Oh my God, I got to save this for a rainy day in case… Just in case.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I’ve had the privilege of talking to families, working with Stanford to pick up the collections, sampling the collections. They come in, they come into a holding area, they have special buildings, and it’s a process to bring these boxes in from everybody’s attic. And I’ve been telling you all, the ones that I’ve invited down to land of the living, “Open your file, open your collection.” Maurice, open your collection. You have an invitation. Open it.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
So that means fill out the papers, go through it, and start it. Meaning you’ve got transcripts, you’ve got all kinds of notes from when you started this, and you remain an archivist to your collection. You don’t have to put anything new in it. You own all your rights and all of that. So it’s an honor. I’m telling all of my younger scholars, “If I’ve invited you, fill out the papers and start. You don’t have to put your current work in, because you’re working with it. Put your stuff in from college. Put your thoughts in. What did you write? Where are your diaries? That kind of thing. It’s not for me, and it’s not for you. It’s for the next generation that’ll come and needs to write about Revision Path.” Well, if Revision Path doesn’t have a record of that and hasn’t left footnotes, or you don’t pay the website bill, it’s all gone.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
It’s gone. So preserving our stories so that we have content for the next future generations to do the scholarship that’s required, that’s really important before I die. And if you get a book or two out of me, well, good. Good. You’ll get a book or two out of me. All right? They’re forthcoming. But collecting content so that we move this out of oral traditions and storytelling into scholarship and into history books, you can’t do it if you don’t have the ingredients, Maurice. So that’s a big portion of my work. And writing the most intriguing research I discover, and don’t ask me, just wait, but I have found some intriguing research that answers my primary questions for us all. So I’m writing that and working out where that will be published and how that will be published. I’m not anxious for publishing. I’m anxious to make sure that we have what’s necessary to publish.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
There’s no agenda to that. And nobody’s making any money on that, so we don’t worry about that. Yeah. Look, yeah, I have friends and foes, and friends and foes worry, “Is Cheryl Miller making anything?” Cheryl Miller… Listen, I’m waiting for the MacArthur, man.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, I hear you. Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I haven’t received a dime, you hear me? Not a dime for over 50 years of work.

Maurice Cherry:
Waiting on that Genius Grant.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah, I’m waiting on the… I pray on it every day. I do, because… And these things are for the young at heart, all these awards and things. It’s like, “Oh, well, we are going to get this award, because it’s like art collecting.” I’ve learned some stuff about fine art too. “Well, we’ll collect, buy low.” When they’re young, they’ve got performance. We collect and buy cheap now, because we know that they’re going to be producing for 30, 40 years. We are not going to give her that. She’s going to be good for 10 years. This should be going to glory.

No, but I haven’t monetized. There isn’t anything. There isn’t anything. Monetization, if you will, of this advocacy, man, I don’t even have a T-shirt. I don’t have a baseball hat, no merch, no nothing. Okay? It’s been 100% advocacy, because scholarship, I’ve learned, and in your work, statistics, the two together, the two signs of a coin, just marching and picketing, and I’m a civil rights girl. All of that brings awareness. But what has moved the needle in my life is one thesis, one document of footnotes.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Cheryl Miller’s a footnote lady. And I wrote one piece, and here we are. So I believe in designers who write, I believe in scholarship. And there were years that I wondered how and why I went to seminary. I’m a theologian. And I was running the studio in New York, and Union Theological became my client. And I started part-time, and oh, that’s a whole nother story. Me in seminary is a whole nother story. But I got led into theological work. And when I got led… Theological work is not religious work.

So when I got into the process, I learned things that I use now. And I would say that I’ve created a genre of design social justice. Oh, you study with Delores Williams and the works and likes of Cornel West in and out of the alcoves, and James Cohen. You walk through some liberation theology, you walk through some social justice and change, pedagogy. Your tools will sharpen to slay the dragon. And then Union does not pride itself on making ministers. I mean, you can walk out and be a minister if you want with an MDF, but you are trained in dynamic levels of critical thinking, research development of scholarship in the recording of history.

And I got led in to be trained. And I did not need… When I wanted to go to grad school again, I went. Of course it makes sense, so you got a Master’s, go get a PhD. Well, PhD in art, unless you’re doing art history, the Master’s from Pratt was terminal for anything I needed to do, even to teach. And Union wouldn’t let me get a PhD in any form of any branch of what they had theologically, because I didn’t come up that route of a BA, a graduate degree, all of that.

So getting a Master’s of Divinity yet put me into what it is that is dynamic for me now. I see things that people don’t see. I answer questions that people don’t even think to answer. And that comes, and I document create footnotes and scholarship. My work is sound. And that came from being theologically trained. They train you, sharpen your knife to be able to cut prime rib with your eyes closed. And there were days like, “Why in the world am I doing this?” I’m running Cheryl Miller Design downtown, “What am I doing up here with all these intellects?” But I had learned the importance. I had leaned into my academic coach with the thesis.

Leslie King-Hammond, she was a PhD from Johns Hopkins. And I met her when… You know my life story, my dad died, I couldn’t go back to RSID, and I ended up with MICA. She was an adjunct African history, what, if not the first Black professor at MICA 50 some odd years ago. I was grieving, and the Dean put her in my care, put me in her care. “Here, take care of this child. She’s supposed to be in Providence. Her father died, and now she’s in Baltimore. Take care of her.” And she was a newly minted PhD, and now claimed emeritus in her own right, of course.

Dr. Leslie King-Hammond, she was my coach. Everybody asked me, “Cheryl, you got a mentor?” No, I had no design mentor. Nobody took interest. I’ve always had Leslie, I’ve had writing coaches. I’ve had some of the best editors to take care of my work, to take care of my writing. Leslie inspired me to be a scrum. I said, “Oh, this is more than doing a book report.” She guided me. It was rigorous. And she guided me through the infamous Pratt thesis. And we all know what that thesis has done in our lives. I was charged with Cheryl, the chair of the design department of Pratt says, “You can’t do a design project to graduate out of this program.” I don’t know what he told anybody else. All I know is Anton Minasi had a studio in Lincoln Plaza, and we all had senior reviews. “What are you doing for your thesis?” We all had appointments.

I’ll never forget it. I went upstairs. He was in a loft across the street from Lincoln Center. And God rest his soul, he said, “Cheryl, we’ve talked about you. You can’t do a design project for your thesis.” I said, “I’m in design school, I’m in graduate school, and I can’t do a thesis. Come on.” “No.” And he gave me a charge. He said, “We want you to make a contribution to the industry.” Well, I just took a deep breath, and I knew what it meant. I knew exactly what it meant. I left his office. I got down, and this is back in the day, there was no cell phone. I went over to the… And he used to have little calling cards. I went over to the payphone on the corner, and I called Leslie. I said, “Dr. King. Pratt’s not letting me graduate with a design project. I got to write my way through this. Will you be my coach?” Thus, brought Transcending the Problems of the Black Graphic Designer to Success in the Marketplace, starting with Cheryl Miller. How about that? Starting with Cheryl Miller.

So I’ve always been a writer. People don’t know I was recruited to RISD, and I was also invited to Wellesley. So I had a choice go to RISD… When I graduated high school, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, we were in a season of reparation, and all the Ivy League schools and New England schools came down to all of the urban towns. And they came to New York, they came to Philadelphia, they came to DC. They scooped up most likely to succeed SAT scores. We all got… Everybody got invited to go to college, or at least to apply. So I was invited to RISD, and I was invited to Wellesley, English Lit and writing.

And I always say now, “Well, I went to RISD, ended up a writer, I got something to write about.” So I got trained. I got trained in scholarship and design and art and design, and its equalities and inequalities is my topic of conversation. So graduate degree number one gives me me something to write about. And graduate degree number two has given me the skillset to do it.

So we lean into that, and that’s how this has happened. Because I will tell you, what I’m doing now, the only thing that being a designer and having gone to all the design schools and all of that, just Google it. The only thing that has done for me in my work has identified a problem and gives me my content for my purpose, for what I write for. So I lean theological work as being trained as a scholar. It has equipped me in ways that design school could never.

And I just think about those years of, “Oh my God, what am I doing? Why am I here? Why am I here? Why am I in seminary?” And I got Cheryl Miller downtown going, I got AIGA, I got all this stuff that’s now in articles, and so forth and so on. And I’m like, “Why I was there was to prepare me for this moment that keeps me relevant and pertinent. I write the solutions to the injustices that I see, and I create scholarship.” And the only other thing that turns the needle like that is statistics. When you back it up with your type of work, well, 2% of this and 3% of this and 4% of this, and oh, back that up with some footnotes, this, that, and the other, then it’s like you got your deposition for your court case. Short of that, it’s like a whole bunch of people complaining and making noise.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, first of all, you mentioned a couple of things I’d love to touch on. One thing that you said about Stanford and Cooper Union, which I thought was interesting, because I got a similar criticism when some of the Revision Path episodes got inducted into the Smithsonian. People were writing, and they were like, “Well, why didn’t you go to HBCU? You went to Morehouse. Why did Morehouse take it?” I was like, “Well, Morehouse, first of all, I don’t think they even have an archive or something like that with design. And I already had a relationship with one of the curators at the Smithsonian.” It was a four-year sort of thing. That’s interesting though that you would get that sort of criticism about that. I mean, when you first came on Revision Path, I remember, I saw the pictures of you boxing up the stuff, and the folks from Stanford coming over and taking pictures and everything.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a weird criticism to have gotten.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
But it’s not a lot, but it sits in the back of people’s like, “Do I dare ask her?” Well, the thing about it is, preserving art costs money. It costs money, the archival process. So if someone is going to say, “We’re going to care in perpetuity for all the artwork that you bring in and make sure it’s annotated and credited and made available,” listen, you go work with that. I’m grateful. I’m grateful.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, speaking of those five years or so, since you were first on Revision Path, a lot has happened. I mean, you’ve had… I don’t think I’ve ever seen a designer have such an award tour, a victory lap, I don’t know what to call it. But you have had a number of accolades since then. Of course, you mentioned your professorships. You mentioned the collections at Stanford, at Cooper Union. There’s also your AIGA medal, your honorary doctorates, one from VCFA in 2021, one from MICA and RISD, from both of those in 2022. I mean, this has to be a tremendous validation of your work and your career. How does that make you feel?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I’m humbled, and I’m honored. And honestly, I’m grateful that I’m alive to see it happen. Like the gospel song, I’m alive to see it happen, Maurice. And to have achieved three design awards of our industry, the Cooper Hewitt, Visionary, the AIGA. And the one that touched me in an interesting spot, and maybe it’s because I’m a New York designer, was being inducted into, it’s the one club, but it’s the old school advertising Madison Avenue Club, being inducted into the Hall of Fame.

I’m like, I have delayed, but not denied. And God’s been faithful that in the midnight hour how much work I’ve done for our community that no one knows. I’m appreciative that I’m alive, Maurice. And I’m still vibrant, so that I can use it. So all of these awards and things, I’m not retiring and I’m not expiring. I’m on the other side of this history, but it’s opening up doors for me to continue to do my work and to correct the wrongs that I see. And it’s opening doors that otherwise would’ve remained shut. So they’re honors hard, hard-earned. Someone posted that on a LinkedIn. I was just being peppered with acknowledgements and well-deserved, long overdue, but somebody said hard-earned on LinkedIn, and I said, “Glory.”

And the first one, I was with [inaudible 00:29:21] Debbie Allen. And if you heard my reflection remarks, receiving AIGA, the night before, she’d earned the revered award, and she was wearing red, and I decided I was going to wear red to stand with her. And these are lifetime hard-earned acknowledgements. And I always tell folks, “Don’t get it twisted. I’m not an overnight success.” Overnight success that took 50 years, Maurice. And I’m not above the law. I don’t want anybody to go through what I’ve been through. So you can’t do this if you haven’t had your own measure. You can’t work like I work if you haven’t had your own measure of challenge, pain, suffering, disappointment at the hand of this industry. And I couldn’t lay my life down like this if it hadn’t touched my door, that’s ridiculous.

I’ve had my measure, I’m not above the law, and it’s been hard earned. And what it does now is, it gives me for those who want me. I’m on invitation only now. Invitation only is, there are a lot of things that are going on now that I’m not invited to the table. Well, I don’t have to be invited to everything, but the ones who invite me really want transformation and not performance. You don’t call me if you really don’t want to change your situation. So that’s a design model, less is more. I don’t have to be everywhere because I don’t trust everywhere to take care of my heart.

And with that said, every place that’s acknowledging, everyone that’s inviting me, they really want me. And for what I’ve been through, all of the horror of disappointment and rejection, why would I want to beat my head against performative projects where you just want my name? I don’t need that, Maurice. And especially on this side of history, I can get more done, I can get more done with people that want me, that really want transformation. I can get more done in one year than most people can get done in 10. You call Cheryl Miller. You want to get it done? Call Cheryl Miller. You want to look like you’re getting it done, she’s not the one. Because I’m really going to do it. So don’t call me unless you really want to hear it, you really want to do it, because I’ve always been truthful to this.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I would wager your years of experience definitely has given you a sharp eye for discerning that.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Oh God, yes. I can tell performative requests a mile away. It starts with the ones that don’t ask me. I’m like, “Oh, I see you. I see you. I’m not even on that distribution list. Okay. All right.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I feel like we’re sharing an inside joke with that, but I know exactly what you mean.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah. So it doesn’t mean I have to be everywhere, it doesn’t, it’s just that where I am are in genuine places that want growth. I shout out University of Texas Austin Design. Listen, I have to shout out to them. They had just three alumni write a letter, just three. And they’ve been transforming. They didn’t have to have board meetings, and this, that, and the other. I came for a residency and they invited me to stay and, “Would you like to create a class?” And I said, “Yep, I would be honored.” You’ll have to ask them what’s it been like inviting Cheryl Miller to the faculty? Same thing. And I honor that, they really mean business. It’s a good school, it’s a great design school, heading up the ranks. And a part of it is, it’s reaching, and embracing, and being sincere to a diverse design community. And they said, Cheryl Miller, you got something you’d like to share?” And I said, “You better believe it.” And I got this crazy class that keeps me crazy busy.

Decolonizing graphic design from a Black perspective. It’s not Black history, Cheryl Miller’s not doing Black history, not like that. This is, I have decolonized the entire canon. And I’m like, “Oh my God.” And the point of the class is that a Black perspective is my perspective. I set the example of how to do it, how to take a one, number one, week one, and the basic canonical history goes all the way down until you get to Christmas, depending on your school. I go through each era and I show you how I decolonize the modernist perspective, but the prompts and the rehearsal back is, well, where do you come from? What’s beyond this modernist canon?

So this one class, I won an award from Howard with it. I’ve taught it at Roger Williams, I teach it at Howard, I teach it at University of Texas. And it’s the platform. I say platform because it’s the lectures that undergird two classes that I’m teaching at ArtCenter. And so ArtCenter, I teach communication design, I’m a co-professor, we teach publication design. But the prompts for the course, I’m a publication designer, so we’re teaching the craft of publication design, but the books that are being produced are not modernist solutions. It’s like, “Okay, so where do you come from? What are you bringing to the conversation of the book you’re designing?” And it’s intriguing. And I’ve been co-teacher, I also teach grad school there. And what I’m finding, I teach the capstone thesis graduate course, I’m a co-professor there, and I did that also at Leslie. People are asking me to teach capstone thesis. Well, who better knows how to write a thesis than Cheryl Miller? So to be a professor of thesis capstone books.

And I come and partner with those professors that are well oiled machines. The crit that we go through, it’s my training, how to do a thesis. I’m like, “I’ve got to renowned thesis, it’s crazy. One thesis, and here we are. Cheryl Miller can do a thesis, and so Cheryl Miller can teach you how to do a thesis.” I’m teaching Senior and graduate capstone thesis research and development. Now at Howard, which is exciting, is that they wanted me to teach that class. And so I think it’s two years, have I been with them two or three years? I’m not sure. Either two or three, whichever one. The first two, I’ve taught that basic class two semesters. And then they asked me, “Can you do a part two?” I’m like, “Apart two of the part one?”

And then I won an award last year, I was so honored. I got adjunct award, Phylicia Rashad, one of her first awards as Dean, for this course. I’m like, “Here goes my work again.” So the course is unique and it’s transformative, and so they asked me what I do part two. And so part two at Howard is I do believe it’s one of a kind, I never say I’m the only, I will always say one of the first. But I’m teaching the history of Black graphic design at Howard University, part two of the design one that I teach in the Fall. So part one is decolonizing graphic design from a Black perspective, which is how to rework the canon base, how do we get new stories? That’s part one. And part two is strictly the history of Black graphic design. And I follow the canonical errors, but I don’t talk about any White designers at all.

And without a textbook, how about that? Because we’re still waiting for textbooks. And it’s the first university college, three credit class, strictly the history of Black graphic design. And so I’ve created my syllabus, I’ve got my lectures, I’ve got my content. The first class is extremely popular, and we are working with University of Texas to make it e-learning. So we prototyped it with a few professors last Summer, and I’m hoping that it will help as continued education for my colleagues. It’s inspiration of how I expand the traditional modernist canonical syllabus. And it’s a popular class, and it’s the basis for everything I’m doing. The only way that you can get the class is, either you take it from me, or we wait on University of Texas to make it. I’ve got to keep it in an academic environment, so I’m not doing it streaming and all that kind of thing. It’s going to be fully accredited and you can get a badge and all that.

So we’re working on getting it so that people can take it. But if we’ve been fortunate enough to have one another in a class, then you’ve taken it with me. And I’m taking as many university engagements that will work with me this way, and I’m very busy during the day. Mondays are my hardest days. And inviting me to do this means that you are also working out what’s happening in design pedagogy, and curriculum, and education. So I have to shout out to Howard, UT, and ArtCenter. They are Zooming me in, and they’re working with it. So working with Canvas, and Blackboard, and Zooming me into the classroom, and these hybrid tech situations is opening up a world of knowledge-based wisdom.

Not only Cheryl Miller, but the pandemic has put us into this place, and I have grown in this space. And so are institutions that are willing to work that out. We’re not only but content experts from around the world, and it’s exciting. And I would say that schools should not frustrate themselves. And when we talk about looking at how we’re coming out of pandemic, listen, I tell my students, the ones that I teach at my other class at UT, is branding for diversity, I tell them all the time and the graduates preparing their portfolios and things, I said, Put some Zoom screenshots on.” These are aggressive design classes, Maurice. “And when you’re presenting, this means that you can design globally, you can be a design leader globally. You can manage how to be virtual, how to be remote, how to be global.” I said, it’s a skillset now.” We’re just not landlocked to walking around New York with black portfolios from corner to corner.

So Cheryl Miller has taken advantage of the pandemic and those that have heard the crying to diversify. And so these schools have wanted me and I want them, and they have blessed me and taken care of me in these years of mine now. And I have space for a couple more universities, but they have to be patient with me. Like I said, I’ve got my fingers crossed. I know that I’ve reached out. We have a campus here where I live, University of Connecticut, and so we’re looking at that. But I will work with this with whoever will work with me, and the two places that you want me. I don’t have to teach typography and this, that, and the other. I don’t have to do all that. You want me for one I do.

So the decolonizing of graphic design from a Black perspective, you want me to teach that. It’s a writing class, the prompts are writing. But I’ll tell you one thing that has stirred my heart is, when I teach this class of Howard, the way my scholars write the papers to the same prompts. Maurice, they help me get up every day because they are appalled that our history is not included in the main canonical story of North American graphic design. Their papers are unapologetic, and they keep me going like, “Oh my God my dear, I won’t labor through this one more year just to make sure you have a history.” So my hardest day, you asked me what’s a day like for Cheryl Miller?

Let’s take the first day, Monday is my hardest. I teach 12 hours straight. I get up, I’m online with Howard at 9:00 for three hours, I take a break. Then I move across the time zone, across the country, so I’m Eastern Standard Time. I start at 9:00, I’m with them for three hours. We lecture, we dialogue, we work out. We really work out on the content. Then my Texas class starts their time, 2:00, 3:00, and I’m there until 6:00, three hours with them. So 2:00 to 5:00 Central Time, 3:00 to 6:00 my time. I take a little break, then I head to California. There 2:00 is my 5:00, I have some transition time. Sometimes I’m early or late, depending on which way my Texas class goes. And I’m online, that’s a five hour class. My class starts all over again. My day starts all over day, all over again. It’s a five hour class that they go to at 2:00 and it’s over at 7:00.

And so I really have to shout out to the team there, the tech team. I Zoom in, review the work. We’re teaching publication design with a different spin. We’re working that Zoom in design, I’m telling you, it’s really an aggressive ArtCenter class for five hours. I start again. They come in fresh at 2:00, from 2:00 to 7:00, and I clock in 5:00 or 6:00, and I work until 10:00. I put in another five hours. So my family helps me, and everybody makes sure that I get water. I get water Maurice, I get water. I get a glass of water, I get a bio break, I get dinner, and I just keep moving. I keep moving. So my Mondays are my hardest things. The rest of my schedule, I write. I allow interviews, I do interviews. My door is still open. I’m here today with any popularity or notoriety because I never say no to the young designers.

So if you catch me, I do portfolio reviews. People want to stop by my LinkedIn Messenger, or my Instagram Messenger all the time. Ms. Miller, thank you for everything, can I talk to you? I talk to everybody, Maurice. I still do, I can’t not. I’m totally accessible all the time, which I think is the secret ingredient. I would say if there’s any secret potion to Cheryl Miller, I’ve been accessible. I don’t care who you are, you want to talk to me, I’ll talk to you. Because nobody ever wanted talk to me, Maurice, and that’s it. Nobody ever wanted to talk to me, not really. And so I’m like, “Well, if you want to talk to me, I’ll talk to you.” And so young scholars, young designers, I have a motto, if you see me on Instagram, or you see me on LinkedIn, and the green light is on, that means I have time to talk to you. I said “Don’t even make an appointment.

I said, “The way pandemic and strange diseases and everything gets us, I might not be here. If you see my green light, you better catch me right now.” I’m a right now, lady. Let’s do it, do it now. And so every day somebody text me, “Ms. Miller, can you talk?” I’m like, “Yep, I surely can.” So I still do portfolio, I still do portfolio reviews, interviews. Everybody wants a little quote or something for their thesis. I’m still at it, and I don’t burn out within this, I’m built for this. So this is my training, so I know when to stop, I know when to rest. I do not work on the weekends, I do not work on Sundays. So to run a marathon, you have to know where to take your Gatorade breaks. And I’ve never been in a situation where I have burned out or lost my way emotionally, spiritually, break down, nothing. I’ve learned early my capacity, my boundaries. I rest a lot.

On Tuesdays I don’t do anything. After a Monday like that, I don’t do it. I go to the gym, leave me alone. I got a couch corner. And then I’m back up. I can get more done in two days than most people get done in two weeks. The key is rest and pacing yourself. The key is rest. Don’t go past being tired, stop. And so I learned that. Running a business in New York, client’s crazy. But I guess I learned to run the race there in New York. I learned how to take care of myself, and glory to God, I’ve got divine health, except for a left cranky knee. I’m on no medicine, nothing. Antacid it every now and again. But no pills, nothing. And so I’ve learned the art of self-care in running destiny’s journey. And my family plays a big part of that. My family plays a big part of that. I have a blessed marriage. Phil is enjoying all of this with me. We started when we were teenagers.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I see the pictures on Instagram. You all are living it up.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah. He’s like, “Cheryl, when’s the next gala award? I’ll take you. Cheryl, I’ll take you.” And I’m like, “Okay.” So the invitation comes with Phillip. And he comes with Philip. And what’s interesting, I’ve got some interesting photos that I will release. When I went to RISD Freshman year, there was a young lady, Freshman, I don’t know what happened with her because I left out after Freshman year. But she came up there to study photography, and he came up to visit me one weekend. And we had these, Civil Rights kids, I had this bush. And she took these love affair photos of Phil and myself, and we both had these well cropped precision bushes. It’s like, “Cheryl, how’d you do that?” I’m like, “Listen, I vinegared up my hair. Listen, I did what I had to do to be in the notice.” I’m like, “I’m not going to be left.”

So I worked that out. And so when we got invited to come to RISD, I said, “You know what? I’m going to entertain my community.” I said, “Let me show me post some militant Angela Davis freshman shots of Cheryl going to RISD Freshman year. And so he’s been with me the whole way, and it is a pleasure. We just did a cameo last week. A week before I woke up and I said, “RISD was inviting folks to come up to their Senior show.” And we live two hours from Providence, that’s nothing. So I said, “Phil, I want to go up to the Senior show, a cameo. Can you drive me up to Providence?” He said, “Really?” I said, “Well, what else are we going to do? We were just going to sit here and watch CNN and these crazy people on television.” So he says, “Sure.”

So we jumped in the truck, and he took me to Providence, and saw the show, which is, oh my God, RISD design. Oh my God, just go to Instagram and look it up. Oh my God. Eye candy. If I say something is design candy, trust me, eye candy, design candy. Oh my God. Oh my God. And so it just warmed my heart. We were up there with Gary Manchin, is where the gallery is, and there’s a patio, when you walk out it overlooks Providence. And I sat there and took a familiar picture with him. I’m like, “You remember when we were kids we took this picture from this venue, not knowing where life would leave us?” So he’s been with me. And the kids, it was a good decision for me to leave New York City with the practice and concentrate on them. I have good kids. Oh my God, they’re such a blessing.

And it’s so funny, as they were coming along when if they misbehaved or anything, I would always say, “I want you to know I was a famous designer, and now I’m on this pickup line with you people.” I said, “I’m a famous designer, and now I’m in kindergarten.” So I chuckled with them over the course of raising them. And so now with all the awards, we have a group text and I said, “I told you I was a famous designer, but more than anything in the whole wide world, I wanted to be with you all.” So I’m a soccer mom, I’m a basketball mom, I’m a baseball mom, and never looked back about the design business. But I always wrote, the phone rang constantly. You called me, oh my God, can I have a copy of the thesis? Can I have a copy of the thesis? Can I have a copy of the thesis?

Oh my God, my phone has never stopped ringing because of the thesis. Now I’m with the awards, they come with me, they went to RISD with me. Got a chance, I’m so proud, they treated us so well. I’m so proud of President Crystal Williams, the 18th President of Rhode Island School of Design, first African American president of a top ranked art school. They just treated us so well, and the kids were so proud. And they go like, “Yeah mom, we know, you are a famous designer.” So what I have wanted to missed all of that for the sake of these crazy people in the industry slaying dragons? No. I have my teenage prom date is my husband, and we have two kids that have grown up to do their thing, and well, and they know that I was telling the truth. “Your mother was a famous designer and now she’s in kindergarten with you.”

It’s a blessing to be here. So it’s a blessing to be alive because a lot of these peers of mine, dead and gone, they’re getting these awards posthumously. That’s no fun. Thank you for the acknowledgement, but they’re dead and gone. I gave Nicole, she doesn’t have to do it anymore, but I gave her, that’s my daughter. I said, “Nicole, if anybody from New York calls you and wants to give your mother an award and I’m dead, don’t go get it unless it’s monetized. Say you had a chance to do it when she was alive and you didn’t. I’m not coming to New York unless there’s money assigned to it for her estate.” So we joke about it, but I’m proud of them, they’re proud of me, and I balanced it. But I work hard. When I work, I work hard. And when I play, I play hard. So there you go. You got another question?

Maurice Cherry:
You’re everywhere, you’re super active on social media, I see you even have a collection of NFTs. I want to ask you about two things. One, where do you see the future of design with all these new technological advances? And then secondly, what impact do you think social media is going to have on design?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Okay. Well, first and foremost, a lot of what I see tomorrow that is happening today comes from the experience of something very simple. I started in this business at the age of 17, 18 years old, and they invented the Magic Marker. Listen to me carefully, I say this all the time. I entered into this business when they discovered the Magic Marker. They were eight in a box, and the name of it was Magic Marker. Up until then, which was transitional, I was trained doing layouts with guash, a wooden teeth square, and charcoal, and speed balling. If I resisted Magic Markers and said, “Oh my God, I got to have my guash.” I wouldn’t be here today. I entered the television industry, when everybody interviews me about BET and all of that, and I always put these markers so people can locate time in history.

Gayle King, I worked in a television station, WTOP-TV, post Newsweek channel nine, was my first design job when I graduated from MICA and moved back to Washington. And Phil and I had just gotten married. Gayle King was a news trainee, news program upstairs in the news department, and Oprah was in Baltimore. And everything was done in film. And in the art department we did old school art cards in color, and the art department, we’d have to make the news graphics, the promo titling, the whole thing. And we had stands where the cameras would roll up onto the art. The station had its first animation camera was filmed.

And then they brought in videotape, this new, oh my god, videotape. And so what happened in that transition period in Washington, they started putting production companies around the area of the television stations, right over the key bridge. They had some colored video production houses because everything was film. So to make the 5:00 or 6:00 news, all the film had to be developed, and edited, and cut, and whatever’s going to happen. The whole place was filmed Maurice, in the New technology. So when I met Bob Johnson, he was trying to figure out BET, which you hear me in that prototype story. I love it. But he asked me would I work at the BET star and prototype TV cards? And after we’ve had this one conversation about his idea, it’s a crazy story. And I’m like, “All right.”

This is before he incorporated, he was working out the idea. And I met him in the prototype stage. So he was at the station and trying to sell this concept. And he says, “Any black designers around here?” And they send them down to me. All I can say in that conversation, I don’t want to go over that conversation because it’s all over the internet. He said, “Will you art direct my prototype show? Take the BET logo card and what we call lower thirds and all of that, because we’re going to do it in video, we’re not going to do it in film.” And so my conversation here is that, well, if I stayed there figuring out how to do lower thirds and graphics with film and didn’t learn kyron, and digital, and video, I wouldn’t be here today. Video, and that production, and those production houses that were lined up in Virginia, and if the TV stations were holding on the film, where would we be today?

And so I’ve always been in this transitional, one foot in and one foot out. Well, let me tell you, by the time I got to New York, just look at your history of the McIntosh. New York City, the Macintosh wiped out God knows how many businesses. I don’t do small businesses, genre of business. So the first thing that really impacted the business at large, the design industry in New York City, was they began to bundle Page Maker on HP computers. And people started, “Well, I can do my own brochure.” And I’m saying, “Oh Jesus, look at this. What’s happening?”

Then I had Danita and [inaudible 00:59:27], you’ll see them on these award tapes. Danita Albert, one of my art directors. I said, “Listen, I got to keep up with this. Whatever this is, we got to do it.” And I said, “I bring the machines in. In other words, I sign my name to the leases, buy all the programs and stuff. I don’t have time to go figure this stuff out, go figure it out. And we got to pull up these drafting tables.” And the speedball turned into the rapidograph, into the uniball. Man, I have been through some technology.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Man, I have been through some technology. But when this Macintosh QuarkXPress one and Adobe and Photoshop, when they bundled this stuff, well they didn’t bundle, you had to buy it. The stuff was expensive and I had to buy… I had my own staff camera because I had a firm, it wasn’t freelance. I had a firm and that’s why I have logo sheets and stuff. If you didn’t have a camera, you couldn’t do this stuff.

So that’s why I have crafted logo sheets that are flying all over because I don’t know about anybody else but Cheryl Miller had, unless you were on a job and you were freelancing and hustling stats after you worked, you know, needed a camera. There was no Adobe Illustrator skewing and all of that. This is Herb Lubalin, Tom Carnase, Tony DiSpigna crafting by hand.

So there were whole businesses for this. And type setting, my office was full of type catalogs. So you had type houses that only did headline type. You had type houses that did body type, you had retouch, retouching, retouchers. You had stack houses for negatives. Okay? So everything the computer did was a business inclusive of the deliveries.

So you had to move camera-ready art from uptown, midtown where the studios were, to the printers downtown. So the delivery services, this thing wiped out New York City. QuarkXPress, Macintosh, Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop. And those who were too cheap to figure it out – how to pay for all of that – took PageMaker on a HP and it went into DIY, do-it-yourself.

All those business folded and I just don’t mean they sea change. You know what sea change is? A sea change is different than a paradigm shift. A sea change is it’s gone. It’s gone. Never. To. Return.

And I saw this and I said, “Oh.” And the delivery service, AOL and the internet was flying, printing files, no more bikes running. The only thing moving now on bikes in New York City is Uber Eats.

I saw these businesses go if you could not keep up. And the resistance. Okay, well you can resist if you want. And listen, I used to visit Tony Dispena’s office downtown, and I was a regular go-by-and-visit.

And you can see, Douglas Davis has a retirement celebration documentary on Tony. You can find it on YouTube. And he shows you old school Tom Carnase, Herb Lubalin, and all of that crafting.

He had a well-tuned studio and you had to have equipment for that stuff. I still have that equipment, man. We had to have ellipses and drafting tools and… Oh Jesus, all that stuff by hand. I still have it all packed away. Okay, I’m looking for a museum’s installation. Cheryl Miller Design Studio still exists. Can you believe it?

I saw Tony’s shop pivot. He did not linger in holding onto speed balls. Speed ball pins and ink, and drafting to… See there was a process of how you did this stuff. You drew it out, you had your tissues and you had to have that camera. This thing hit New York City so fast. I went in there one day and he had a number Macintosh.

So what I’m sharing with you is University of Texas, I saw is starting a master’s program of AI. Next year it’s going to launch. MIT has a has a six week continue ed. Resist it if you want. Resist it and see where you’ll be. You’ll be right there with Uber Eats. You’ll be right there with Uber Eats. All right?

And I’ve been through too much technology to know, don’t resist. Learn it. And while you’re learning it, they will figure out the copyright stuff, they will figure out the legality, they will figure out… But it’s going to do you no good if this technology doesn’t have some content experts.

And so I’m like, learn it and figure out your code of ethics for using it and compete. Don’t resist. Or you’ll be on your bike riding around with Uber Eats, still looking for pay stub deliveries to printers downtown.

Yeah, this is it. I’m curious about NFTs. I have several collections on Foundation. Phillip is doing that part of my practice. I think there’s something there. You know, got to watch out for moving west for gold, because the only ones that make gold are the ones who make the shovels. The only ones who find gold out west are those who sell the shovels. Is there a there, there? But I won’t know if there’s a there, there, if I don’t jump in the game.

So we’ve got a Foundation collection, I’ve got a collection up now for women’s… He put up one for, there’s some women’s images. Yeah, I get it. Phil’s trained in blockchain for his business.

So we just keep it moving. We just keep it moving. I’m far from – well, I can’t say I’m just getting started – but I’m into Cheryl Miller 2.0. Or 3.0, 4.0, whatever it is. I’m curious. I have some entree, but I haven’t had time to work it out yet. But I’m curious about teaching in the metaverse and I do not jest when I think before it’s all said and done I can hologram into some space to teach.

The only proof of anything that I’ve said here that it’s important. You’ll always hear me say, “Design doesn’t change. Technology does.” There’s not a thing about design that changes. Technology changes. And I’m a designer. I’m a good designer. So if I want to be left behind, I’ll go back with my magic markers.

I told you all of that to show you how much technology I have grown through. And I was inspired as a kid. TV was brand new. George Olden moved down to Washington DC to be with CBS when I was born. And so I grew up on art cards. And I’ve always been able to be blessed enough to be able to keep up with the technology. When I say “keep up,” is to afford the computers, to afford the programs, to afford the training.

And so we’re just going to keep it going and inspiring young designers to compete. So the answer to the question is Star Trek. We’re on an odyssey. I can only tell you if you don’t want to get lost, you better get your little continuing head. Or go to YouTube University. I always love going to YouTube University. They’ll teach you anything. They’ll teach anything you want to know.

Maurice Cherry:
That is so true. That’s so true.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I also like The Verve, Terrence Moline’s group. They throw up their tips and they keep it moving in that group. So you want to learn some technology and what’s going on, they’re really working those programs and talking about mid journey and all these dolly and rainbow this.

But you have to show up to these things. You have to participate. You have to always be inquisitive and be excellent. Like Oprah says, you got to do the work.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Now, you and I have talked about some young designers that you have been mentoring. You’ve talked about – or I’ve seen pictures at least I know – but you and I have talked about Simon Charway, Taeler Breathwaite.

How has your mentoring been going? I mean, I know you’re everywhere in terms of social media and of course like you said, you want to be on the metaverse. Like in the real world here, how’s your mentoring been going?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Oh well, listen, apples don’t fall far from the tree. Everyone that’s in my tribe, they have their gifts. I think in my life I’ve inspired them to touch their gift. And the proof that they are of my tribe, they’re all winning awards too. The family that prays together stays together. So my tribe, they’re award-winning, they’re doing the same thing.

They stop by every now and again and say, “Auntie” – they know, don’t call me “Abuela” or “Nana” or anything – so everybody knows to call me “Auntie.” I just speak into their lives, hope and inspiration and to identify your gift.

And I do have some tips Maurice, and they have been kind enough to regard some of my wisdom. And when applied, they get the same results. So they are competitive designers. I’ve got so many of them. But what you can’t do is write me and say, “Cheryl, will you be my mentor?” That’s not the way that works.

Usually I see a giftedness. And I think one of my favorite, you mentioned Tré [Seals] and Taeler. Tré, I love Tré. I love him dearly. And I love how he always remembers me. And he’s the man of the hour and he will be the man of the hour. On several occasions, his YouTubes and his articles, he will tell you that he ran into my article in 1987.

And most people run into the article 1987. And they find me, they do everything they can do to find me. And if you’ve gone through all that trouble to find a vintage, he said he paid 60 bucks. He found it on eBay. Somebody gave it to him, and then he found his own copy. I know I bought 200 of them, so I know 200 of them are around someplace.

He found it, someone gave it to him, he read it, he found me. I don’t know how he found me, but back when I was raising the kids I had a website. You could write me on the website. And he said, “Ms. Miller, I got an idea.” I said, “Mm-hmm.” I always listen. I said, “Mm-hmm, we all got ideas. Okay.”

He says, “I found your article. I read your article. I have an idea.” I said, “Mm-hmm.” And he says, “I want to make typefaces from the lettering on Civil Rights posters.” I said, “Mm-hmm.”

He says, “What do you think about that? Is that a good idea, Ms. Miller? I paused. And he quotes me pretty well, I remember it like it was yesterday. I said, “Tré, do it now. If you don’t do it, somebody else will.” I didn’t have to tell him twice. And here we are.

See, this is what I tell everybody. You’re not going to be the only one, but could you try to be the first one? Try to be the first one. You’re not going to be the only one. Don’t you still go to McDonald’s and look up and say, “Can I have a Coke, please?” Well, we only have Pepsi, will you take Pepsi?” Don’t you go to FedEx and say, “Can I have a Xerox?” In the Canon machines back then.

First name recognition. I will never be the only one, but I’m going to be the first one, one of the first. I will never say “only.” You will always hear me say, “I’m one of the first.” Because just when I have the audacity to say I’m the first, somebody else comes up and says, “Well, I was there before you Miller.” I’m like, “Oh yeah, you were.”

So you got to stay humble with it. But you got to be the first one, one of the first to the application of your gift, your idea. That’s your brilliance. And so I see people now trying to do that, and they’re coming up with civil rights. And I said, “Man, don’t imitate. Don’t duplicate. Create.”

Taeler. Listen, that little baby can design. You hear me? She’s my youngest. I met her in Texas. Now, I don’t know the statistics, I don’t keep up with it, but she must be one of the first young black designers to have gotten as many grad school acceptances, top rank schools. And you’ll have to interview her to ask her where she got accepted.

But I’m not saying she’s the only one. I don’t know if she is the only one. She’s the only one I know out of University of Texas of Austin Design that got grad school acceptances, top rank schools and money. She’s selected prac. She’s got some intriguing work that she’s going to be doing and finishing out.

So you have to go interview her. And what was it like? I was one of her senior design teachers in Texas. And so, she was competitive. And boy, she was racking in those admissions and scholarships. I’m like, oh my God.

Simon. Oh listen, I love Simon Charway. I met Simon Charwey online. And one of the things that is so important to this work that I’m doing is that, and even there’s a segment in Dori Tunstall’s new book, Decolonizing Design. She’s got a piece in there that talks about the importance of the place to start is to understand your indigenous origins. It’s a requirement.

And I have researched, I had a family issue. I’m African American, but I’m also Filipino American and I’m West Indian. And I’m from DC. My backgrounds, my Zoom backgrounds, my story, everything. I’m what they call MGM: multi-generational mixed.

And I was raised African American. But culturally, I am Danish West Indian and I’m African American from D.C. I can hand dance. But I got four different grandparents, four different places.

I’m Filipino from Cavite. So I’ve got a Filipino family, I have a West Indian family, I have an African American family, and I have a Native American family. So my grandfather was white, an American Indian from Fauquier County.

So in this story I have one African-American grandmother, my father’s mother was African-American. And all of these people resolved at Howard and ended up in D.C. And I learned to hand dance. And that’s my story.

But in that richness is I’m Danish West Indies. My grandmother is indigenous Danish West Indian and Ghanaian. And my research led me to finding… Long story, but you can buy my book. Black Coral is my memoir. That work needed to be done in my life before I could even begin to do the scholarship on design.

And I have Ghanaian, DNA that I needed to process. I had a missing Filipino family that I needed to deal with. My mother came up looking a hundred percent Filipino on Howard’s campus. There was so much that needed to be dealt with in my origin, my heritage, my being born into this drama, that Black Coral – you can get it on Amazon – was a lifetime work that I ended up publishing in 2013. And with that, I found my tribe and origins of my Ghanaian DNA.

And with that comes the authenticity of my African aesthetic. You have to know the slave trade. So I know the Ghanaian slave trade is my history. The colonizers, the French and Martinique, the Dutch, the Portuguese. I know my colonizers are the Danes. And I know my history is with the Ghanaian Kings.

I traveled all through the West Indies for years. Census records, census projects, studied Danish census records, putting together and answering the question, “How in the world do I have Ghanaian DNA?” It’s from the slave trade.

And so with that, I found my tribe and where they are in Accra. I have a cousin, my great-grandmother’s nephew, who went back and became what they call “enstooled.” And he sojourned back to Ghana, and he’s a chief of the Virgin Islands. They enstooled him and met the lineage of all the tribal leaders.

So I have all of these records and pictures of the tribe, which is really genuine. I mean, it’s research. I’m hoping to go to Ghana. It’d be my second trip to Africa. But I’m hoping to go on a research trip to look at the decorative painting houses and things. I’m going looking at the Ghanaian aesthetic.

And I met Simon online. He wanted my advice on his African Design Matters project. We began a conversation on Instagram. And I saw him, and while everybody’s sleeping, I’d wake up and go to their conferences. They’re like 7, 12 hours.

So y’all sleeping. While y’all sleeping I’m with the Ghanaian designers and I’m hearing their agenda. I’m like, “Oh, these Pan-African brothers and sisters, they got a manifesto. And while we sleeping, they’re manifesto-ing.”

So I saw him interface online, working hard to integrate his research into a North American discussion. So he’s trying to meet us. He’s working with AIGA. And I was fascinated with his work because I would get up and listen to them lecture and their conferences. And I said, “Simon, the only way that you are going to break through with your research in North America, you got to get it ratified. And the only way that I know to get what you’re doing ratified is Yale.”

I did. I just said, “Simon, go to Yale.” I said, “I can’t tell you how to get to Yale, but you got Professor Mafundikwa, you know him. He’ll tell you how to get to Yale. Use your network to get where you’re going.”

All I can tell you is that I did what I had to do in that invitation of inspiring. I never say I’m anybody’s mentor. Let him say it. I inspired him to reach, you got to ratify this work. And the only place I kind of think this fits is Yale grad school.

And Mafundikwa can help you. I just live in Connecticut, so I can tell you the highway and the exit to get off. Yale isn’t my school, RISD and MICA, they’re my schools. I said, “I can just tell you the exit off of A 85. But you got enough that… Try.”

And I didn’t even say, “Try.” I said, “Do it.” And all the way up to the last moment he got accepted, we walked him through application, acceptance, the airplane ticket. We walked him through the whole thing. And so when he got here, it was the week after, two weeks maybe he’d been here and it was summertime. He finally got here.

I said, “Phil, would you take me up to Yale? “I want to meet Simon.” And I asked my son and I said, “He doesn’t know what’s going to hit him. We got some coats around here?” He’s in New England, he’s never seen snow. He’s going to wake up and it’s going to be, “Oh my God, where are the ancestors? Where are the outfits?”

So the guys put together a few sweaters because he didn’t know. So he is just going to wake up and it’s going to be frigid. But you wake up and it’s freezing, you know, what you going to do? So I said, “Brothers, give me some sweaters and some coats. And Phil, can you take me to Yale?”

I found him and he was so grateful to meet me. And then he touched my heart. He touched my heart, Maurice. He said, “Will you take a picture with me?” I took pictures out in front of where he was living. He said, “Ms. Miller, can you take a picture with me at the Yale sign, Welcome to Yale?” I said, “Well, do you know where it is? He said, “No. But I got to have a picture with you standing in front of Welcome to Yale.”

Oh my God. And Phillip was so patient. We drove around Yale’s campus looking for this one sign that Simon wanted. It’s one of these entranceway gate things to the campus, and he could not tell us on what corner, what street. And we drove all around Yale, which is a city school. Where’s the sign that says, Welcome to Yale? Well, we finally got it. He was so excited. You can see the picture on Instagram.

And he was so excited to meet me. We stood out and he kept taking pictures. He says, “The elders won’t believe it.” That’s what he kept saying. He says, “The elders won’t believe that I got here unless I take a picture of Welcome to Yale with you. And I’m like, “Okay, Simon.”

It took him three years to get here. It started pandemic. He started reaching out. Everybody’s online. He found me. I started going to their conferences. And I’m like, “Mm, I get it. I get what you’re doing. I see it.”

And Simon is just proclaiming and got his research. And I’m like, “Yeah, you trying to cross over into an international space. I got it. You need to go to Yale, brother.”

So from inspiring him, it took three years. The process of application, getting to work together, through the interviews, through the plane ticket, through the whole thing, through “Professor Miller, can you meet me and stand in front of the sign?” And forever grateful. And he knows I have Ghanaian DNA.

I’m like, “For the elders, Simon, I know I don’t look Ghanaian, but trust me, I know some Ghanaian art. I know Ghana. I know I got Ghana family. I got a chief. I know my chiefs. I know my story. We are craftsmen artisans. My tribe is, if you’ve seen the decorative coffin makers, the Sowa tribe, Accra Ghana, is my tribe. And so I come natural. We’re designers, we are wood cutters, ship makers, and we build the decorative coffins of Ghana.

And so when I start talking to you all about some African design, I know what I’m talking about. And that’s what I mean. That’s what mean about, I got stories to tell that nobody else can tell. I got footnotes to make that nobody else can make. I’m not compiling footnotes. I’m creating these footnotes and I’m leaving them in places for somebody to write something, whatever you’re writing.

And Cheryl Miller said, “Well, if I said it, it’s a footnote, and it’s a research and it’s a proof.” And my DNA says, I’m Ghanaian. And Simon and I connected. The ancestors connected us. Okay, so that’s the way the drum beats.

Maurice Cherry:
At this stage of your career, how do you measure success? I mean, what does it look like for you now with all of the accolades and the awards and the prestige? What’s success like now?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Just remember me and acknowledge my friends. And when the ones that I’ve poured into make success on their own, that they remember. I do not talk about this famous thesis without acknowledging Dr. Leslie King Hammond. I refuse to talk about all these awards that stem from one thesis without celebrating Dr. Leslie King Hammond who was my academic coach and the scholar in my life that said, “Go get some skills.”

And I always tell y’all, well, when y’all have your big conferences and stuff, just make sure somebody got Ms. Miller. Is she is on the plane? Is she on the train? Somebody got her bag? Just remember me.

I went to AIGA, I met Teressa Moses from University of Minneapolis. We were walking out of the main theater at one of the breaks. And she and her friends were going to dinner and she turned to me and she said, “Professor Miller, you want to come and go to dinner with us?” And I kind of looked like, “Y’all don’t want me coming to dinner with y’all.” And she welcomed me. She said, “Come on, go to dinner with us. We’re skipping the rest of this. We going to go find dinner.”

And that meant more to me in the world that she included me. I can’t have gone through and have the passion for our community if I haven’t been through the pit of hell with this industry. The only reason I did this is so that you all, any measure of it, you don’t have to go through anything I went through. You don’t want to go through what I went through.

You don’t want to go through Jim Crow trying to steal my portfolio and not giving anybody a chance. I don’t want to bore you through the civil rights era. So the only reason I’m accessible at all…

Maurice, you don’t want to go through anything that I’ve gone through, not even a measure of it. So if there’s anything I can do to help you not go through it, I’m going to do it because I’m not above the law.

Maurice Cherry:
Is there something that you haven’t done yet that you want to do?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I’ve thought about that. And the answer is not really. I’ve thought about, do I want a branding project? Do I want a book? Do I want…? When I really was performing and servicing, I ran hard for my clients. There were projects I really wanted and I just knocked on those doors until I found the project. I worked for my portfolio. And I did the best, the absolute best I could do in the area and the era of performance that anyone could do.

And I say that because I came through pre-civil rights, civil rights, and post-civil rights era. And some of these anthologies and biographies and stuff I read online, I’m not far from Thomas Miller.

Thomas Miller has a clip I use in my lectures. You find them on history.org. I use them in my lecture when I’m talking about corporate designers A1, number 2. Week 2, symbols.

I got a YouTube university in him. He’s 80 some odd years old. He just got a posthumous AIGA medal, and I just met his daughter because he won the award the same year with me. But they got a clip on history.com and he’s 82 years old. And the pain in his eyes, I felt, and I knew. He said before Gold Shark Associates, his voice was frail, but you could see it in his eyes. “I just wanted to open a little place” – he’s talking about Chicago – “And I wanted to open a little place and do little brochures and logos, but no one would patronize me.” And I saw it in his eyes.

And he was awarded the medal for endurance or persistence or something like that. And when they were reading his bio and his daughter was there to accept posthumously, my mind flashed back to that history.org clip. And I saw the pain in his eyes and I said, “Mr. Miller, I get it.”

I’ll tell you on this other side of this story, I have so many answers to stuff I was going through when I was younger. I’m like, “Where’d that come from? Why am I doing this? Why is this so difficult?” This, that, and the other.

Here’s an example. I won’t call his name. Out of respect, because I don’t know whether he’s alive or not with us. But a gentleman on Dorothy Hayes’ list. See, I’m young enough and old enough to be in New York at the same time and many of those on the list, I knew personally. One in particular, I won’t call his name, had a studio downtown. And he called me one.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
… I had a studio downtown, and he called me one day. I knew him personally, and he said, “Cheryl, I want to give you my studio.” I’m like, “What?” He says, “Yeah.” He says, “I want to give you my studio.” I said, “Well, where you going?” He says, “I’m leaving New York.” He didn’t give me an explanation. I didn’t understand it. He said, “Have Philip run in a truck and come down and take it all out of here.” I said, “Are you sure?” And he said, “I want you to have this. In other words, maybe you can do something with this because I’m pulling out of New York,” and I’m like, “Wow. Okay.”

So, Philip rented the truck, we went down and I pulled out this guy’s studio. Sometimes, depending on where I zoom, I have two plants. They were loft plants. I have one in my living room and one in my office. They’re 40, 45 years old with these plants, I took out of this gentleman’s studio. Every time I see those plants, it reminds me of how difficult it was for us to make it in New York City, and I never understood why in the world he closed his business and pulled out in New York, until I started working with the history and working with systemic racist practices, and working on my research. I said, “Oh my god, none of us were scheduled to live.” One of my favorite questions I answered, why did Milton Glaser get all the black work? That thing was driving me nuts, so Cheryl, you’re going to figure that out. Stevie Wonder, Mahalia Jackson, Hugh Masekela, all of these black… How’d he get all the black work? Dorothy Hayes’s people are hanging all around.

For me to realize, Cheryl, you were living in that. You were living in that era, and this is why your friend, who’s on Dorothy’s list, who was in the show, why he called you up. You’re a young kid, okay? Next likely to succeed, he’s just going to give you his stuff and pull out. I didn’t realize that till I saw his name on the list. And then, I dropped into history, and then I dropped into Jim Crow. I dropped into the cannon. I dropped in… I said, “And, now none of them could… How far could they get?” He gave me everything. Library books, equipment, chairs, drafting tables. I picked it all up. Two plants that remind me of the story. One is in my office here, it must be eight feet tall of… Yeah, one of those scheffleras, and then I have a ficus, it’s gorgeous. It’s very comfortable in my living room, about seven, eight feet tall, was in his loft.

See, this is the kind of stuff I live through. You’re not going to find a footnote unless I make it. I don’t have time to compile footnotes. I have time to make footnotes. I just made you a footnote. Okay? I just made your footnote. This whole conversation is a footnote. Anything I’ve, said recorded on this… You know The Chicago Style?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah, the whole conversation’s footnote. So, success for me, is that I lived to see it happen. I lived to see you all prosper. Congratulations on your 10 years. I listened to your anniversary.

Maurice Cherry:
Thank you.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
You’re doing what someone should have done for you, which is the key to this. You interviewed yourself. Somebody should have interviewed you.

Maurice Cherry:
Yes, yes.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Maurice, tell me something about this. I don’t know. Okay, so this is at, you threw you all an anniversary party. I’m like, “No. Somebody, I won’t call names, should interviewed you.” I don’t do podcasts except, I fill up a studio room. Okay? That’s not what I do. I don’t make them, but I’ll talk. Don’t invite me if you don’t want me to talk. That’s not what I do, but I know who’s doing them.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
So, whoever’s listening to this one, y’all should have interviewed him and see, I’m crazy enough now I say that. Y’all should have interviewed… Maurice got to interview himself for 10 year victory. Okay, so guess what? I enjoyed your anniversary interview.

Maurice Cherry:
Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
If I had a all that design show, I would’ve interviewed you. I would’ve known to interview you.

Maurice Cherry:
I appreciate hearing that. Thank you.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I enjoyed the story, and I enjoyed… Thank you for having me for the 500, thank you for 248. I know my number. I’m 248 and I’m in the Smithsonian. I am proud of you. Okay? Apples don’t fall far from the tree, and listen, I just shouted out, somebody with all that podcast show, needs to interview you.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you’ve been quoted as saying, “My motto is to live your life is your story, to live your life for others is your legacy. Leave a legacy.” I feel like so much of this conversation has been about your legacy. What do you want the next chapter of that to be? What do you want it to look like?

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I just have… My writing needs to be done. Please don’t ask me about it. Okay? Don’t ask me, I’m not going to tell you. I need my writing to complete, and I have investigated places I should be, I mean, I could be. There’s no should, there ain’t no should in life. Places I could be. I want to just give my gift in the right place, for the rest of my time, and Maurice, I don’t know where that is, but I can feel it. I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing right now. I’m supposed to be leaving the footnotes, collecting the archival work from dead designer estates. I was so touched. I met Reynold Ruffin’s son. He went out to Stanford to see his father’s collection. For the heirs, to say thank you is a blessing for me. I think being someplace high and mighty would take me off course.

High and mighty is… What? Don’t you want to be a dean of this or this, that, and then I’ll be doing so much administration, I wouldn’t be there for you. I can’t change what I’ve been doing, I’m just going to keep doing it. I’m there for you, Maurice. I’ve always been there for you. I’m leaving footnotes. I’m there for you, and if you all remember me, I’m touched, and all of the accolades helping my visibility so I can do more of that in places that want me. There are still places that do not want me, and when they don’t want me, they don’t want us collectively, they’re still there. But, like I said when we started, “Oh, I see you.”

But, there are plenty that want me in my community, and want to share this center stage of design and experience. That’s it. I want to finish my journey, and I think I’m also in a place, where the expectancy of surprise is, I don’t know where I’ll be led and where I’ll be invited, but my heart has been good about this for 50 years. So, I have an expectancy that God will reward openly, what I have done secretly, for the body of Christ in this, and for the body of designers, wherever they come from. I’m good, Maurice. I’m good. And by the way, I’m waiting on the MacArthur because… I’m waiting on the MacArthur.

Maurice Cherry:
That needs to be on the next chapter, for sure.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
The reason that I want it is, it will just help me finish. That’s it. It’ll help me finish. Because imagine doing all of what I’ve done with no payment. It is a heart’s desire because it will help me finish my work.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up, and I know, of course, people can Google you and find you in many, many places, but are there any places in particular, that you want to point people to, so they can keep track of what’s going on with Cheryl? Cheryl Miller everywhere.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Cheryl Miller, everywhere. No, I post every… I don’t like Twitter, so you don’t find me much over there. I’m on Instagram, I’m on LinkedIn, and if you want to support the NFTs, I’m on foundation. I’m painting, I paint in the summer. That was an empty nester, right before pandemic exploration. I left DC to go paint at RISD, and life’s pivot got me sophomore year signing up for graphic design at MICA. So, I always… In the empty nesting era, right before all of this took flight again, I said, “Charles, is anything left of your painting?” I paint in the summer and I paint during the break, and I would like a good gallery. I hate all these rules and regulations, Maurice, when it comes to art and design. You got to have this, you got to have that. I’m like, “Oh man, I can paint.” Really?

I can design with my eyes closed. Really? I would love a gallery to just get in relationship with me and let me just send you paintings, and you do what you do. If you ask me what I want, it’s like can’t this be a touch easier? That’s all. Because I’ll put in the hard work, man. I’ve done the work. This is not been an easy tour duty. I did all this with the design studio and my family, and all this, the advocacy, the legacy part, so I have worked some and I continue to work. So, anything that gives me grace and favor, I’m appreciative.

So, when the schools invite me, “Would you like a teach a class? We’ll figure out the tech.” I’m like, “Thank God. Thank God, University of Texas. Thank God, Howard. Thank God ArtCenter. Thank God, somebody…” “Miss Miller, we’ll make it easy for you. All you got to do is beam in with your lectures and grade and read, and do whatever you have to do. Come visit every now and again.” Just make my path a little easier. So, when I say the MacArthur, “Yeah, just make it a little easier, a gallery.” Oh, I’m not going all over New York, querying for a gallery for my paintings. Philip’s got a catalog. You want to see them? He’ll send you a catalog. You want to do business or what?

I’m not doing that. No. You want to do business? I’ll give you some paintings. I guarantee you, you take my paintings, you’re going to make money. This is what this is about. I know how to make money in art, but I just don’t have the patience for the hurdles, and the exclusion, and what the industry does something so simple. Kids just want to draw and paint and make a living. And so, it can’t be that difficult, so if you ask me anything that will make my life easier with what God gave me to do, from the time I was a kid, would be a blessing in my life, Maurice, and you guys just remember me when you go to the conference, “Does somebody get Miss Miller? Does she have a seat?” Do like Professor Teressa, “You want to go dinner?”

Yeah, I want to go dinner. I want to hear what y’all are doing the road ahead is, think about your retirement people. We can come back and talk about that. Think about it. Make decisions now, because your clients will get old with you, they won’t be there. Hiring managers are your age, they won’t be there, so you’ve got to plan that out, and we can come back and talk about that we need the industry, we need professors. Oh my god, we need professors. If I get a call once, I get a call a hundred times a day. “Cheryl Miller, you got any more Cheryl Millers?” I’m like, I got professors, associate professors that can get… Who can… Associate professors, not adjuncts, associates that can… Ready for tenure. We need them up the ranks terribly. The opportunities are there, but they’re not many of us. They’re not many of us. Silas, Pierre and Tasheka can only teach a couple places, at a time.

I’ve been like, get your paperwork. Let’s get going. We need professors. Integrate that with your practice. Figure out your retirement, live happily ever after. Stand up, show up on these teams. Don’t drift back. Be outstanding and stand out, Maurice. I’ll say that one again. Be outstanding and stand out from the rest. When you can, make your gift the first. You won’t be the only one, but you’ll be most memorable. Don’t imitate. Don’t duplicate. Create. Prosper the God-given gifts in you, and don’t take no for an answer. Sometimes you got to wait. Have some patience. God knows if I can wait 50 years for the wind of change, y’all can wait 50 weeks. You can wait 50 days. I still meet people today. Cheryl Miller, I didn’t know anything about it. I said, “Well, I’m sorry. I’m sorry you didn’t read the article 35, 40 years ago.”

You know why they didn’t read it? Because the books used to come in the mail, and if you didn’t see your picture in the front of the book with an award, you toss it to the side. But, I was right there writing. The article’s in the back of the book, and I shout out and thank everybody, and always thank. Thank you, thank you, thank you to my allies in this season. Both Ellen Lupton and Brian Collins have been a blessing for me, and I just want to make sure that I thank them openly and I thank them for their favor and their grace. I always thank everybody who’s helped me. Michelle Spellman, I acknowledge her in my lectures, she’s first black female art director, Time Inc. I didn’t know what I was doing. No Sports Illustrated. I didn’t know what I was doing. She gave me my first job for Time Inc, and next thing I knew Time Inc. Corporate was my client, and I had Cheryl Miller Design.

I thanked Michelle. I always thank Fo [Wilson]. Yeah, 50 years, Hip Hop graphics. Listen, Fo said Cheryl Miller to McDonald’s, one of the best jobs I had while she was art director of YSB. We helped each other. I was in seminary and Michele Washington remembered me, when they were doing those design before. They weren’t giving us any design medals and stuff, she wrote one of those profiles for me.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, Design Journeys. I remember that.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yeah. So, we helped each other, we did what we could. I gave everybody work. Then, I’ve had some wonderful allies in this season. Professor Sansone, and all of my professors at UT, Doreen Lorenzo, and Kate Canales, and Kelsey Gray, and Sean Adams, and Bruce… I mean, I’m thanking everybody like I’m getting an Emmy here. When I met you with former president, Julie [inaudible 01:46:21], she said, “Come on out of here. Get out of the woods. I’m going to take you to Chicago.” Regina Roberts came all the way, and beautiful allies, brought me all the way, came all the way over here, get my boxes. Philip said, “Cheryl, how many times we got to move these boxes?” I said, “Until I figure out where to go.” I saved everything. The whole Cheryl Miller, I don’t dare put up all my work on the internet, y’all got a sample.

So many people, all of the awards people, all of the Smithsonian, and there’s so many people to thank, and so many people to remember, my allies and everybody who’s asked me for lectures, there’s so many people to thank. And so, I’ve had grace, in spite of, so expect the grace. Expect favor. Live well and life will be well to you. This is the last time we going to have this conversation. I want to shout out to Pratt. We’re keynoting their graduation and they’re honoring me with… I guess they’ll be announcing it soon, by April. I’m sure that by the time this runs, it’ll be announced. Yeah, they’re giving me an honorary degree. I’ll be keynoting at Radio City musical, for their graduation. And so, Maurice, it’s really simple. Whoever will love me, well, I will love well back, and when you love me, you love my community I represent.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, amen to that.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
And, I love you.

Maurice Cherry:
Amen to that.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
I love you and I’m proud of you. Congratulations for your 10 years. You’ve been a blessing for me. I wish you well in all of your endeavors, and all of your segues, victories, transitions, your writing, the podcast, God will smile on you.

Maurice Cherry:
Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
We keep doing this and I’m honored to be number 500. I know for sure this will be, unless we’re doing this again, and I’m a hundred years old and you’re like… I expect a long life, but I don’t expect that you’ll interview me again, but maybe so. We don’t ever know. We don’t know yet. And so, I’m just listening. I think there’s some places where I’m yet to arrive. God doesn’t show it to you all, and He doesn’t give you everything that you want. When your gift, you get sent and you get placed. So, each and every day I pray, “Okay, lead me, guide me what you want me to do next.”

I think there are other schools, I think there are other projects. I think there are other kids and scholars, and I’m proud of everyone’s life that I’ve touched. I’m grateful for all my allies in this season, who’ve helped me, and they’ve helped me greatly. For everyone who’s supported me, over the years, clients and the stories are truthful. I pray a special prayer that God would thank you, because I can’t thank you better than when the God can touch your life and say, “Oh, well, that thank you came from Cheryl Miller. She prays for you.” So, that’s what you want. You want God to thank you for how your kindness and open door to me has blessed me.

Once again, I want to thank you for always supporting me and having interest in everything that I’ve been doing, and I’ve been thanking everybody, and I just want to make sure that I shout out to my universities that have accepted me and brought me into my new work. And, of course, we mentioned University of Texas, Austin Design with Doreen Lorenzo and Kate Canales, and everybody in Austin there, has been great to have me and my new scholarship. It all really started rolling with Nikki Juen at Roger Williams University in Rhode Island, and Professor Kristina Sansone at Lesley Art and Design in Boston, and put me on the faculty there. I want to shout out and thank Bartley and Howard University, I was blessed to win an award for my new class there, and that’s been exciting and a real, real big shout out to ArtCenter, and Sean Adams had a vision to have me join out there.

And so, it’s crazy, but this new hybrid scenario is allowing me to reach all of the universities that would have me, and so I’m very, very grateful and thankful for that. Everyone that nominated me for all these great awards, Ashley over at AIGA and everyone at Cooper Hewitt and the One Club. Oh my goodness, everybody has just blessed me, all my friends at the Poster House keep remembering me. A special shout out to, not sure if I mentioned before, Regina Roberts over at Stanford has been helping me with our collections and making sure all those footnotes are in place for the next generation. And, the universities that have honored me with our honorary awards. And keynote speaking. I’m going to shout out to Vermont College of Fine Arts, MICA, RISD and I’m going to be keynote and receiving honorary from Pratt for this graduation 2023.

I think I’ve gotten everybody, there’s so many people to thank over the course of a 50-year career, and especially no one had to remember me, Maurice, and pull me out of the card catalog in this season of Renaissance and resurrection and restoration, or whatever we want to talk about Cheryl D. Miller 2.0 since the pandemic, it’s really been a blessing. Everyone who has had me write, speak, lecture, teach something, it’s all keeping me alive, and we’re moving. Especially you, Maurice, I’m so, so appreciative of everything that you’ve done and from remembering me from the very first, back when you were doing South by Southwest presentation, you came looking for me. I was definitely in the card catalogs of the decimal Dewey system and you brought me forward, so there’ve been a lot of people that have been instrumental. I don’t want to forget anybody, and if I have, please trust me, I remember every good will and wish toward me. I just am appreciative of the path of revision and vision that you have given us. I just want to say thank you.

And so, one more shout out to ArtCenter and Howard and UT, I’m just really grateful for the universities that are having me. Of course, all the clients that put up with me, and my designers that put up with me over the years, it’s been really… What a crazy journey. But, I’m living to see it happen, and in the next generation of those who seek this to embrace this career. So Maurice, thank you. God bless you, God keep you and keep revisioning the past, over and over again for us, and thank you. This is your buddy, Cheryl on [inaudible 01:53:37], and we thank you. So, with that, congratulations. Thank you for having me. Once again, you have my permission to make this one collectible. How about that?

Maurice Cherry:
Thank you for… I mean, I don’t really even know where to start. Just thank you for being you, for being an example, for being a trailblazer, for continuing to write and rewrite the canon, to show that we are here, we’ve done the work, we’ve existed, and we can continue to be here, and we have you as an example to show for that. So, thank you. Thank you again for coming on the show, for our 500th episode. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

Dr. Cheryl D. Miller:
Yes, Maurice. To everybody, just keep going and compete. Just compete. That’s all I have to say. And, don’t shy back. You have to be in it to win it, so go for it. There’s so many more now. There were only a few of us back in the day, Maurice. But now, the tribe is an army. All right? And so, we can move forward mightily, and I pray that blessing upon us all, and don’t resist AI, go get your certificate. Okay, my love.

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Chris Charles

How will you pursue your passions in 2023? If you’re anything like this week’s guest, Chris Charles, then you’ve probably already got some great plans in motion. Chris is a true multihyphenate — a creative director, a film maker, a visual artist, a photographer, and more — and he’s blazing his own trail while staying 100% authentic to himself.

We caught up recently and talked about some of his plans for this year with his studio, and he shared his process for approaching new projects while also discussing how he balances the business and creative sides of his work. Chris also spoke about growing up in Brooklyn, joining and serving in the Army for over a decade, and talked about how his style has evolved over the years. He even shared the one project that he’s the most proud of out of his impressive body of work. Chris is a true example of how staying adaptable and building great relationships can be a recipe for success!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Chris Charles:
Hey, first, thank you for having me, Maurice. Really been digging the platform since I’ve been introduced to it. Once again, thank you for having me, man. My name is Chris Charles. I am a photographer, creative director, designer. I just try to bundle it all up into… As a creative designer or art director.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. How are things going so far? I know it’s just the start of the new year, but how are things going for you?

Chris Charles:
Yeah, so far so good. I was very intentional about taking some time off leading into the new year, so I can kind of rest a little bit, spend time with family. So, thankful I have been able to get that time in and spend time with the kids and the fam. But yeah, so far so good. It’s kind of taken me a day or so to still get into the flow again of work, and consistently checking emails and communicating again. But yeah, I’m ready to get it popping.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I told myself this year that I’m going to start turning my phone off one day of the week. So I’ll turn it off Saturday night, turn it back on Monday morning. And I tried that, actually, a few days ago, just so people know we’re recording this at the top of the year, but I did it over New Years. It was so peaceful. That Sunday was so extremely peaceful. Monday was super productive, and it was so peaceful that I didn’t remember to turn my phone on until Monday afternoon or evening. And I turned it on, and I mean the flood of notifications. People were like, “Are you all right? Is everything…” I was like, “I’m fine. I just turned my phone off for 36 hours.” It’s good, the world can wait.

Chris Charles:
You are much better than me. So I have measures implemented to where my phone isn’t as invasive as I know people who have all the alerts on, the lock screen thing. And so what I’ve done is I turned off notifications on my lock screen, the one that kills the battery. I keep my phone on silent with the exception of a few key numbers; my mom, my partner, my daughter, people who they will need to get to me just in case something happens. Other than that… I don’t know. I don’t know if I can just turn my phone off. I think for me, it’s easier to just have it readily available so people can reach me in the event that they have an emergency. But kudos to you, man. I don’t know how you did it, but you did it.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, it’s an experiment. I just tried it once. So we’ll see if it sticks.

Chris Charles:
I’d have to send a mass email or text message to everyone to let them know, hey, I’m out the loop. I’m not communicating for X amount of time, so don’t expect a response but in the event of emergency, call this other number. I have to have an emergency contact person in place just for that, but.

Maurice Cherry:
I might end up doing that too because certainly I turned my phone back on, and I guess the way that my phone is set up too, I can get text messages on my computer, I can get some notifications, but it just wasn’t on my phone. And so I still was able to do some things, I just couldn’t or didn’t respond back to people right away and stuff. But let’s just say I’m paying for that today. I’m having to do a lot of catch up today.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, a long day of responding to folks, I’m sure.

Maurice Cherry:
But that Sunday was so peaceful. I was like, I’m doing this again. I can’t stress how no pings or nothing. That whole Sunday, I cooked breakfast, I listened to some jazz, I was chill all Sunday. I’m like, I want that feeling every week. I’m going to try to see if I can stick to it.

Chris Charles:
I think you can do it. I think you can do it.

Maurice Cherry:
When you look back at last year, what do you want to change bringing into this year? You mentioned taking some time for rest.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, I’m part Jamaican so I don’t know any other thing than to work all the time. Running my business but also working another job across town, and I just left that job before the new year, just because it just didn’t make sense commuting that far several times a week. But yeah, I think for me, working smarter not harder for 2023. I think 2022… And most of my career, I spent a lot of it doing all of the heavy lifting. I’ve had assistants in the past who helped manage communications and emails and I’ve worked with tons of young artists who volunteer their time, and some I’ve actually mentored and was able to get them going with their businesses. But I think it’s time to build a team. And I think it’s time to start delegating versus me being the lead communicator, the lead invoice generator and the lead key artist on set and then the key editor. Time is so much more important to me, I’m realizing, especially now that I have a young baby, six months old.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, wow. Congratulations.

Chris Charles:
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. His name is Cerulean Amir, and he’s amazing. But yeah, I think moving into 2023 I definitely want to facilitate me being more present, and the way these knees are set up, doing all the squatting and getting all the angles, I would rather be able to guide that process through other people who are under the umbrella of my business.

Maurice Cherry:
I hear you.

Chris Charles:
That’s the goal.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, let’s talk more about your work in your studio, Chris Charles Co., which you’ve ran now for 15 years, so congratulations on that.

Chris Charles:
Thank you.

Maurice Cherry:
Tell me a little bit more about it.

Chris Charles:
So, ultimately, and this kind of plays into the vision for this year and moving forward. I’ve always kind of been a multidisciplinary artist, I mean with roots in obviously photography, design, music. I produce music as well. I’ve worked with a few artists and I’ve always felt that the three words that I’ve used to encompass my business are style, creativity and soul. And for me, that’s kind of the type of person when it comes to aesthetic that I always wanted to be. Even when I was a kid, I just wanted to be cool. And that being influenced by music and jazz and seeing how cool those people were.

I always wanted to have whatever business I ran encompass those kind of things. Just like a cool energy, a cool vibe, some fly music going on, some fly art, whatever it is. So yeah, I think my business, while I also focused on trying to strive to be technically proficient, but it was also about creating a vibe or a feeling to the point where whatever I put out in the universe via the internet, it’s a reflection of those three things, style, creativity and soul. So I’ve just kind of ran with it and it seems to have helped me find my voice over these years. So that’s pretty much… Be it design, photography, music, show-making, those are the things that I’ve really pushed to have come to the forefront.

Maurice Cherry:
So given all of that, what are the best types of clients for you to work with? I know you mentioned musicians, but are there other types of clients that you find you work best with?

Chris Charles:
Honestly, I work just other artists in general. DJs, musicians, visual artists. I’ve worked with other photographers doing portraits and collaborating with them, painters and also high-level business people. For some reason, it’s more like a, wow, this person is amazing. I could learn so much from them, and they hired me to do this work. You know what I mean? So it’s like it’s feeding my desire to learn more and have goals based off of what I’m seeing this person has done, and I’m actually doing what I love to do while learning. So yeah, I would say anyone in the arts, like I said, high-level business people. I’ve worked with district court judges, I’ve worked with mayors, mayoral candidates, city council people, attorneys, high-end real estate folks, and all of these people have great lessons that I can pull from to use at some point in my business. So this is great. I love that.

Maurice Cherry:
So given that variety, how do you approach creating a new project or working on a new design project? Because I would imagine with each of those types of clients, the setup might be a little different, I’m guessing.

Chris Charles:
Yeah. One thing I used to struggle with… Well, I won’t say I struggled with it, but one thing I had to really understand was find a way to maintain whatever vision or artistic integrity I had while still fulfilling my clients’ needs. And sometimes those things don’t always align, and I’ve had to adapt and adjust in order to facilitate my client being happy and just doing the work. But yeah, I think for me, I just like to assume that people who have hired me, it’s not like sight unseen. They’ve seen examples of my work and they’ve seen… Or other people who I’ve worked with and they’re like, hey, I want that.

Unfortunately, I’ve had some clients who have no… Whatever I do, whatever they want was the opposite. So that I think has been a big challenge over the years. But ultimately, it’s just about adapting and adjusting, interjecting those three things, style, creativity and soul while still keeping whatever format my client wants to maintain their brand and push their image forward. So it’s a lot of, I’d say, adjustment. I don’t want to say shape-shifting, but it’s more like a, yeah, I can do this, but I can still slide some of these elements that I always kind of hearken to for this person.

Maurice Cherry:
I feel like that’s a common thing with multidisciplinary folks. It’s like we know that we can do a lot of different things, and sometimes the client is aware of that and sometimes they just want the one thing that they want, but it is a lot of adjusting to try to make sure you’re fitting in with the scope of the project, their involvement in terms of how things are going. It is a lot of… It’s a constant adjustment, I find.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, it is. And I don’t know, I think by nature, just based off of my travels, even as a child I’ve always been very adaptable, but I’ve always tried to stick to a certain thing that, okay, well I’m going to do this but I’m going to do it this way. And it kind of made me a rebel. When I say that, I mean I’ll follow the rules but up to a certain point that I’m just going to just do it this other way because I think it’s more efficient. I kind of relate that to working with clients and just adapting. And yeah, I hear what you’re saying. I know you want the logo with the money, the dollar signs raining and all of that, but maybe we can simplify it a little bit. Here, let me show you this. So I found using examples of other brands within that person’s market helps kind of dial those things in for me too, so I don’t have to really have too much conflict.

Maurice Cherry:
How do you handle the business side of everything? Because the work definitely is the creative part. That’s what you specialize in. But, when it comes to marketing and contracts and finance, how do you balance that with the more creative aspects of your work?

Chris Charles:
It took me a while to actually find a rhythm with managing all the things outside of the art and creating, but eventually I was able to figure out a way to say, for example, automate my booking process so I don’t have to have these conversations and these email threads that just lead to dead ends. Usually if someone clicks and books, they’ve already made their mind that they want book me. So that saved me so much time. I’d also, say, having an assistant, I had a really great assistant and then she moved on to greater things. But I really learned to appreciate how… For one, she was really good at what she does, and she actually is based in Atlanta, so she was working virtually. But that type of communication, I’m not saying I’m a horrible communicator, but sometimes I’m too busy out working to communicate in a timely manner.

And having someone who that’s what they’re doing for me made it so much easier. But other than that, it’s just kind of trial and error. It’s like, hey, I’ve gone through so many phases with trying this invoicing system or trying this business bank account to see that works in payment gateways and figuring out the most seamless, easiest way for a customer to pay a deposit and then book it online without having to have conversation, after conversation, after conversation. So yeah, it’s been a journey. It’s definitely been a journey, but I’ve been able to figure it out just based off of trial and error and kind of doing what works, but also evolving, being open to evolve. There’s a few things I want to add into the mix this year. Definitely want to get someone to do the actual books and have an accountant, or someone who I can contract to have to do the accounting. Because I’m pretty much doing it all of that myself as well, so.

Maurice Cherry:
Now outside of that, being in the arts and being self-employed, that’s a lot to balance, I think particularly with just the way that our attention economy kind of works. What are some of the biggest challenges that you’ve had to face staying independent and doing this for as long as you have?

Chris Charles:
Dealing with the economy. I think managing… Be sustainable, which is every business during economic downturns, and that’s another challenge. I’d say just dealing with the ebb and flow. My business is a cash flow-based business, and most businesses that, but fortunately I don’t have much overhead, so that makes it a lot easier. I’m not producing a physical product that requires me to buy inventory and surplus. So that in itself has really helped me manage the challenges of an economic downturn and keeping clients and being able to have clients who just keep coming back. And some of my best clients are those repeat clients. But ultimately also over-saturation. Over-saturation. When I started doing photography professionally, there were just maybe a handful of really, really great photographers in my area who I looked upon for inspiration, and I saw they had things established. They did great work.

Fast forward to now, it’s like you can just close your eyes and point your finger one direction, and you’re probably pointing at a photographer. You know what I mean? So staying relevant, being open to new ideas is kind of, like a lot of artists, I think specifically more with musicians and kind of trying to grow their art and their craft while still maintaining that voice that put them on in the first place. So for me, I don’t want to look at it as competition. However, it is somewhat of a competition. This is a free market. So if I want to be competitive in this market, I have to pay attention to what other people who are 20 years younger than me are doing. And if I have a client and suddenly I see my client shooting with this 20-something year old, I’m like, oh okay, great. Yay. But also, I’m like, huh, how’d that happen? What do I need to do to where I can keep this particular client or clients? So yeah, it’s a few challenges.

Maurice Cherry:
I know when I was actively having clients and doing client work, one of the biggest challenges, aside from what you mentioned, is just making sure that they still keep you sort of top of mind with what they do. Because I think, like you said, there’s over-saturation sometimes in the market and there’s a number of different people that folks could choose from to do kind of the same work. And so I think it’s really important also to just have those relationships. The relationship building part is so important with so many other people out there, because the benefit I think that we have, you and I, and probably others of our age group, is being able to build those relationships as opposed to just putting out whatever the newest, hottest, latest, fastest tool or product is that can get the job done.

At the end of the day, it’s about relationships. You mentioned one of the clients you’ve had has been a mayoral candidate. I did a mayoral race back in 2009. The person didn’t win, the candidate didn’t win, but she ended up working then for a nonprofit organization and I had that organization a retainer for five or six years. And then every place that she ended up going, I kind of followed her in some aspect in terms of like, oh yeah, I could do this work, I could do this work. Or just keeping top of mind so they know, oh, well I know someone who could use you. So then that relationship building really comes into play because your name gets mentioned in rooms and other places that you’re not necessarily available.

Chris Charles:
Exactly, exactly. And yeah, I think I’ve definitely been fortunate to have had several of those types of clients where I’m talking about 10, and you mentioned the foreign exchange. It’s almost like 10 years we’ve been working together. And then of course, with Nikolai individually and with Phonte individually, it’s been like I’ve been their go-to guy, and I appreciate that. I have some clients who, once again, are in the political scene and some musicians who, there’s no question they will call me, and I don’t take that for granted. But also it’s because we can sit down and kick it after we do a long shoot. We go grab some food, we have a couple of beers, and we kick it for a little while and just decompress and catch up. I value that.

Because to me, that’s connection. And for me, especially when it comes to doing portrait work and photographing people, it’s important that I established that rapport, which could potentially lead to a cool relationship and friendship. But I can’t get a good picture of someone if we’re doing a session, if we haven’t had a conversation that kind of face-to-face, and that way we can feel each other out. I can see where I need to go, how I need to handle this particular photo shoot. Yeah, I’ve been able to, like I said, make some really great, great friends because of that relationship aspect that you mentioned.

Maurice Cherry:
I just started back doing some client work through my studio now, and one thing I’ve been doing is going back through my old contact list of clients. And the first of the year, best time to do it, best time to restart a dormant relationship or a dormant former communication. Just hit them up, Happy New Year, how are things going? This is what I’m doing. Because people just kind of have that energy at the top of the year to want to do something new, try something new. So it’s a good time now to make those relationships happen or to try to at least begin to forge them.

Chris Charles:
Absolutely. Yeah. Just before Christmas, I sent out some tests, newsletters with some things just to see, once again, updating that client list and seeing do I need to remove or add some things and change and seeing the response and looking at the numbers. So yeah, you nailed it, man. Definitely going to be doing the same this year.

Maurice Cherry:
I want to get more into your work and some of the clients that you work with. Of course, you mentioned foreign exchange, which we’ll talk about later, but I want to hear more about your origin story. I know you’re in North Carolina now. Is that where you’re from? Is that where you grew up?

Chris Charles:
No, I actually grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. ell me about that.

Chris Charles:
Spent my formative years in Brooklyn, but also going back and forth between Brooklyn and Jamaica. We usually go every summer, or every other summer. And Brooklyn is a melting pot of West Indian and Caribbean culture, anyway. So yeah, growing up in New York was such a great experience for me. I think I tell people I grew up, I think in during the best era to grow up, which was the late ’70s going into the ’80s. Because once again, I literally would’ve had a Irish neighbor across the street. Their neighbor was Italian, who was my first babysitter. We had a Puerto Rican family on the corner. We had the Haitian family right there. You had my family, which was a mixed ethnicity. You had people from Aruba, people from Barbados. It was such a melting pot of culture. So I was exposed to a lot of different languages and a lot of different foods and energies. And thankfully, my parents and I, we traveled.

We’d get on a plane and go somewhere, go to LA, go to Jamaica, and my dad had family in Pennsylvania, so we’d be in the mountains. Just being in that type of environment or those types of environments where I’m surrounded by so many different things, it influenced me and grew up in a very musical household and very artistic household. And I played guitar, took formal guitar lessons for years, and my household was the type of household that always had music playing, be it jazz or reggae music. So my parents loved to dance. We do the New Year’s Eve party at our Puerto Rican friends’ home, and they’d be dancing salsa all night. So I just love music and culture. So, I couldn’t help but be influenced by all of that growing up during that time in New York. So went to high school, did that. Played football in high school, actually. So I wound up going to college initially at a Kentucky Wesley College with a partial scholarship to play football. And that was a disaster because that was my kind of first time away from home.

Being in Kentucky as a New York dude was kind of different for me. I made it through football camp, and I was like yeah, I’m not feeling this, and I went back home. So I had to regroup, and my parents were looking at me like, okay, so what are we going to do? You can’t just be laying around here. You know what I mean? You got to do something. So I said, okay. Always loved architecture, always loved art and clean lines and drafting. I took drafting in high school, so I pursued a degree in architectural engineering, the New York Institute of Technology in Farmingdale, it’s a [inaudible 00:24:32] entity, and that was great. But I also have a military family. All my uncles were in the military. My dad was a Marine, my brother was in the army, and that’s also something I always knew I wanted to do. I was a boy scout and I loved wearing a uniform. I was one weird kids who just loved putting on a uniform and being fresh. So yeah, I did college and then immediately joined the Army.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Chris Charles:
So this is, what, ’93, ’94. And wound up getting a job doing surveying, but it was for artillery. So I kind of got hoodwinked. I kind of got made switch with you have engineering background. Yeah, this could be a great job for you. But I’m sitting next to a [inaudible 00:25:18] blowing up stuff, you know what I mean? But ultimately, it was good. I had a good time, did a couple of overseas tours, and I made sergeant. And so now I had to manage a team, and that kind of taught me leadership and politics when it came to, not just the military, but corporate, I came to find out later.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s where corporate gets it from, so that makes sense.

Chris Charles:
Structures, politics of it all. They parallel each other. So anyway, I decided maybe I want to change jobs. So in the military, they have what you can do as reclassifying. So I reclassified as a communication specialist, and more specifically a network switchboard engineer. So like an internet guy, basically. And that was great because it basically helped me transition out of the military eventually with those same skillset sets. And I was able to apply them. But meanwhile, I was also a paratrooper, so I was jumping out of airplanes and went to jump master school. So I was jump master qualified. I was aero [inaudible 00:26:16] qualified.

So I was propelling out of helicopter, jumping out of airplanes, doing all the cool stuff, even though I had these technical jobs, because that was kind of that guy who just wanted to do the hard stuff as much as possible while I still had the young legs. So yeah, eventually 2003, after my last deployment in Iraq… Well, 2004 is when I began… I came back, I think April, and put in my paperwork to get out the military because I just felt it was time. My daughter was very young at the time. She’s 21 now. But I just didn’t want to be away from her and missing her grow and potentially not being able to see her again, not making it back from the deployment is very real.

Maurice Cherry:
Especially right around that time in the early 2000s. Yeah.

Chris Charles:
Yeah. 2003, 2004, maybe going in 2005, ’06 was a rough one because the warfare over there with the IEDs… And it was really bad at one point. And I was there for that when you never knew if you were going to get blown up in a convo at some point. And that hit me. That was real, that was real to me. I said I’m good. I’m a smart guy, I think I’ll be able to figure something out, especially with the skillsets that I gained in the military. And that’s what I did. So I got out of the military in November, 2004, and haven’t looked back since. I transitioned almost immediately into a corporate IT job.

And that was great. I did that for about five years. And then 2009, the 2008, the bubble burst and the economy tanked, and I wound up getting laid off. So here I am, had a corporate job, great benefits, great pay, and now I got laid off. Never happened to me before. I didn’t know what that felt like. And it was horrible being called into the operation manager’s office with all of us who got laid off. It wasn’t just myself, walking back to your desk and you see all your stuff packed up in a box on the table with a security guy waiting to walk you out.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Chris Charles:
It was embarrassing. You feel powerless, you just feel like, wow, that’s what we’re doing? Wound up getting laid off. And I had to really, really sit on it for a minute. And then I realized that was a universe kind of pushing me in the direction of becoming an artist full-time. Now keep in mind, when I was working at this particular company, I became good friends with the art director there, and he knew I was kind of dabbling in photography, and he invited me to drive to Boston to shoot a wedding because I guess he’d seen some of the work I was doing just for free. And he thought I had an eye. So he took me, and that was the first paid gig I ever had as a photographer shooting that wedding. And that’s when also the light bulb clicked.

Was kind of already getting over the job, it was very stressful as far as just the IT and networking, dealing with clients, having to take the blame for other people’s mistakes or whatever. So when he says, hey man, I’m going to cut you a check for $1500, just drive to Boston in my Audi. I was like, oh shit. Okay, let’s go. Hey, maybe I can just keep doing this. And then a few months later, I wound up getting laid off. So it was all serendipitous how it happened, even though I wasn’t seeing that at the time. But it definitely helped guide me into the direction I kind of eventually went. So I took my GI bill and took a little bit of time off. Because I did get a bit of a pension, not a pension, but a severance day. So I was able to survive and pay my bills, but eventually enrolled back into college and wound up getting a degree in graphic design while slowly building my business and getting to know the community.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Chris Charles:
So that was a very big transformative time for me.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. And in hindsight, like you said, it worked out in the end. Something I want to just touch on, you mentioned though that time between, I would say roughly the mid 2000s, 2004 to 2008, 2009, that was such a… And I can’t stress this enough for designers that were not around during that time. That was such a wild time in terms of just design, I guess you could lump tech in with it, but particularly web design, graphic design. So many things were changing in that just five-year span that you were lucky if you could stay at the same place for that long because the technology was changing, the browsers were changing, the actual hardware itself was changing, the software was changing. There were so many changes that took place that it would be hard to keep up with everything that’s going on.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, definitely. And I don’t know, for me I think what helped me was being in school… And at the time I was still using Windows, for example, but we had iMac Labs where I was able to kind of… I was like, oh, this is nice. Okay, cool, cool, cool. But not only the technology, but I guess you said the design language, right? Like I said, I loved architecture, I loved clean lines. I loved a certain minimalist aesthetic. And I started noticing design shifting to that versus heavy drop shadow and beveled fonts. And a lot of overly-designed things that have, and I attribute that to Apple, actually.

Maurice Cherry:
Absolutely.

Chris Charles:
I think Apple’s brand pretty much influenced the design world when it came to aesthetic and minimalism. Being able to be able to sell something and tell a story as cleanly as simply as possible and maybe using really great imagery overlay with text. So that whole look… Like when I started seeing that and I realized that that’s kind of how I love that, that’s what it was for me. So it made my transition fairly easy. Because I just wanted to stick to that aesthetic. It was just, like you said, learning the technology and learning in Design and Illustrator and all those things. I was pretty good in Photoshop already. But those other Adobe products, they were kicking my butt for a while. But I think I got a handle of them now.

Maurice Cherry:
I remember the macro media stuff when it switched over to Adobe. I used Fireworks a lot in one of my old jobs. And then Fireworks pretty much became obsolete. Adobe bought Macromedia and changed a bunch of stuff over. And then I was a web designer at the time. There was the whole switch from table-based layouts to CSS-based layouts. Which then changed the browser because the browser then was less about just display and it became more of a canvas. It became more of somewhere you can create things just on there and not have to transpose. I remember cutting up tables in Dream Weaver and exporting them over and making sure everything was right. But now you could use CSS and you could float things and create divs…

And it was just such a big shift… It was a really seismic shift, I think, in design online during that time. And yeah, also the switch from the nineties style of design, especially with tables and things like that because they borrowed a lot from print, to more clean lines. Because it’s just based on what the browser did, because the browsers then had to catch up. This is after the whole browser wars of the late ’90s and stuff. But browsers became less about, oh, this is just a place you can view a website. It’s like, no, this is a place where you can build a website. There’s technologies, there’s like a stack in the browser where you can make things. It was just such a… I look back at that time fondly, but also in hindsight, there was a lot going on.

Chris Charles:
I don’t think… for me, I wasn’t aware of it at the time. I was just like, oh, okay. This is cool. Oh, this is… Okay, cool. This is cool. That’s cool. I even look at… I use Photoshop a lot, for example, and I look at Photoshop from back then to now and how much I can do that I really couldn’t do without having to download a plugin or something. And the same thing with everything in the Adobe Suite. I was using Premiere for a while and I just couldn’t, didn’t jive with me. So even now transitioning over to Da Vinci Resolve has been like, my head explodes every time I use it. So it’s so phenomenal. And it doesn’t bog down my CPU. I don’t have to open up a whole nother program to do as much. I can do it all in here. I can do audio the same time.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Chris Charles:
This is awesome. For 300 bucks, I don’t have to do a subscription, a yearly subscription. I [inaudible 00:34:48] with it. So I’m just really thankful for it. I love technology, so I’m thankful for technology. I’m kind of a computer nerd. I was as a kid, backtracking real quick, I used to write programs on the old… Gosh, it wasn’t an IBM computer. It was a Commodore.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, the Commodore 64?

Chris Charles:
Yeah, yeah. Definitely showing our age. Because that one [inaudible 00:35:12]. Yeah, I’d go to the library and rent and take out these coding books and you’d spend three hours writing code just to make the colors on the screen. And that was fascinating to me. Just learning syntax. And anyway, so it helped me, even in corporate. When I was working in corporate, I had to… The company I was working for, it was a proprietary voiceover IP network, one of the first in the country. So I would have to be able to trace a call from London to California, and I could literally look at the numbers on the screen and see the nodes as the signal is… Well, the communication is traveling and seeing where it breaks. And that always remind me of when I was a kid. Wow, this looks just like when I was programming my Commodore 64. But yeah, I’m just nerding out a little bit on the tech. But it’s a great timing.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, it was. Even visually with… Flash was just everywhere. Flash was such a huge component of creating experiences online. And now in 2023, really years prior to that, I’d say probably as early as maybe 2020 or so, Flash is just a distant memory.

Chris Charles:
During that transitional phase when I was going to school, I actually gig doing graphic design and marketing for a local recording studio. And I had to do Flash. And I was like, what the hell is this? I’d never really had much experience with Flash and I thought it was kind of an antiquated technology, even back then. But they insisted on using it for their banner ads and whatever. But me being at that job was also a big turning point for me because of just where I was. And then being around musicians and kind of transitioning into connecting with artists who needed photography and design. You know what I mean? So yeah, that was a good time.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, let’s bring it back to your studio, then. So you had that spark to start your studio then after doing that photography gig, you’ve kept it going now for 15 years, and your client list is extremely impressive. Just some of a few, I’ll name off here. Moleskine, which are the notebooks, the Italian leather notebooks, Apple Music, Spike Lee. And of course, musicians, The Foreign Exchange. They’re one of my absolute favorite groups. I’ve been a fan since Connected. I’ve been such a fan. This is complete fanboy moment at this point. How did you get involved with them?

Chris Charles:
Yeah, it’s kind of a funny story. So back in late 2009, I was kind of slowly making a name for myself as a photographer. I’m a music nerd, and I was dating someone at the time, time who knew Phonte.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

Chris Charles:
Actually, I think they dated years before she and I met. But anyway I was also on… I don’t know if you remember the Okayplayer.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh yeah, I remember them.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, yeah. I was on Okayplayer, and I go into the, what do they call it, the rooms or whatever, the chat rooms, I guess, and just nerd out on music. And at the time that’s pretty much how the product exchange met on Okayplayer. And they recorded their whole album by just sending tracks and vocals across the ocean, because Nicolay was in the Netherlands at the time, living there. So anyway, so it was cool being able to connect with these artists like Little Brother and Questlove, and kind of just being involved in conversations and casts happen about music. And the person I was dating at the time would randomly post my photography into the forums. Like hey, my boyfriend did this picture, blah, blah, blah. And apparently Phonte was paying attention. So one winter, like I said, I think late 2009, we went to a gig.

It was a Red Bull event, and it was a battle of the bands featuring The Foreign Exchange and a punk rock band. And it was brilliant because what they had to do was play each other’s music and interpreted however they saw fit based off of the genre. Right? So it was cool hearing The Foreign Exchange’s band, which was amazing, playing these compositions that the punk rock band made. And then vice versa, you know what I mean? Really good time. Of course, I brought my camera, took some really cool photos of the bands. And then as we were leaving, I hear someone calling me and it’s Phonte. He and I had never met, but he’s like, “Hey man, you Chris Charles? I saw you coming you up here. We got a new album coming out, man.” I was like, “Word? Okay. Hit me up, man.” And that was it. That was the beginning of that relationship. I just loved the process. So I worked with almost all the artists under the, not just The Foreign Exchange, but their record label.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, wow.

Chris Charles:
So Median when he was on the label, just finished working with, well last year, last summer. BeMyFiasco, who is Phonte’s protégé, musically. And yeah, pretty much have done every project after Leave It All Behind.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Chris Charles:
So did all the photography, the design. Think the first one was Love in Flying Colors. That was the one. And yeah, did all the pre-flight, the layout, the photography, excuse me, and then yeah, all the way up to their last one. So it’s been a great journey with those guys. And we just did a photo shoot a few months ago, actually. Because they have some things that they’re going to be doing here. So it was good reconnecting with those guys again. But yeah, it was just, once again, those types of circumstances that the relationship building aspect of it is what’s important. And we’ve always had a great relationship. Really great guys. So yeah, those guys are cool.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m trying to think how I first found out… I think I found out about Foreign Exchange either through… It was one or two ways. One, there’s a music store here in Atlanta called Moods Music.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, I know it.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, Darryl.

Chris Charles:
That’s a hot spot, man.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, that’s the spot. That’s the spot. I’m gatekeeping a little bit now that I’ve told the whole world on the podcast, but that’s the spot though. That’s the hot music spot in Atlanta. But I either found out about them. It was either through there or through this website that a couple of friends of mine founded called SoulBounce. I can’t remember if it was through one of the two. It was one of those two that I remember first hearing about it, because like I said, I’ve been listening. I’ve been a fan since Connected. Leave It All Behind, still gets rotation in this house to this day. “House of Cards,” oh my god, love that group. And even all the other stuff that Phonte did. I know Phonte and Zo! did this ’80s cover album. That was really good.

Chris Charles:
It was Percy Miracle, and I forget the other name. But yeah, Phonte had the Jerry Curl wig on.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, they did Stepping Out. They did Africa from Toto. Yeah. That was…

Chris Charles:
Those guys are so talented, man. Even now with… What’s that show? I know Zo! and Phonte been writing a lot for this new kind of musical skit comedy show.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, is it Sherman’s Showcase?

Chris Charles:
Sherman’s Showcase, yes. And then of course, I designed the Eric Robeson Phonte record, Tigallerro. I did Phonte’s last single. Any visuals that came out pretty much revolving around the phone exchange or Nicolay’s or Phonte individual projects, I also had the privilege of working on. So, such a good time, man.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, man. I think of all that. You mentioned Eric Roberson and now I’m thinking of all the soul music that was also just kind of in and around during that time. That was such a… When I think on that time, that was late 2000s early 2010s. That was such, for me, that was just such a pivotal time. I think I was just turning 30 right around then, too. I was like, oh man. Such good music. And that’s so cool that you were just a part of all of that. And you get to work on it all. Do all that stuff.

Chris Charles:
It’s still surreal. It’s still surreal. Whenever I see… When President Obama had one of their songs on his yearly playlist, I’m like, what? I’m looking at a photograph and design I did and now President Obama saw that, word? I mean, that’s cool. It’s cool.

Maurice Cherry:
Can you give me a sneak peek on whether or not they have a new album coming out?

Chris Charles:
I’m sworn to secrecy.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. All right.

Chris Charles:
Let’s just say we did a….

Maurice Cherry:
You mentioned a photo shoot, I thought I would ask.

Chris Charles:
Yeah, yeah. I’m sorry, that’s all I can say. But yeah, stay tuned, man.

Maurice Cherry:
We’re talking about Foreign Exchange and Phonte too, but Nicolay is super talented as producer. I have some of his solo albums, too. One of them… I forget what it’s called. Something with Shibuya in it, I’m not remembering…

Chris Charles:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
No, no, no. The City Lights. City Lights Volume II. Oh man. That’s one of my favorite, favorite just chill out albums. One of the songs on there is… I forget the… I have to go back and remember the name. Because I know the song when I hear it, I can’t necessarily think of the name of it, but it’s like some song. I don’t know. I call it my getting home from the club song. When you get home super late and the sun’s about to Rise, it’s like that kind of song.

Chris Charles:
Oh, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
I forget the name of it. But they’re all super talented. That whole clique is super talented

Chris Charles:
And super nice. Whenever I get to catch up with Nicolay. The guy’s really, really smart. He has a degree in musicology. He’s not just like self-taught. He’s really formally trained, but also humble and tall. The guy’s like seven feet tall. He’s like about six foot seven. He’s huge. But just the nicest guy. Same thing with City of Lights Volume too. Those guys are always gracious whenever we connect. What’s another one I did? Not the Shibuya one. I did the next one.

Maurice Cherry:
Soweto.

Chris Charles:
Yes. I did the graphics for that one as well, as well for [inaudible 00:45:08].

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Chris Charles:
I’ve been lucky, man. I’ve been lucky.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you do to stay motivated and productive with your work?

Chris Charles:
Just constantly evolving, actually, as far as what I do. For me, sometimes it’s just if I’m editing photos, I run into a creative block with where to go with a certain edit. I’ll put it down and I’ll step away and indulge in another media, be it a short film or looking at some art books that I have. But I know for me, staying inspired revolved around kind of exploring the balance between what’s in my head and what I see that catches my eye out in the world. And also music. A lot of my photography and design, I feel it’s so connected to musical energy. And at least to me, I always like to think of a song whenever I present a certain edit or if I do a print.

So for me, sometimes I’ll be inspired by music, or if I’m producing music and coming up with a theme and a rhythm, and I’ll start to see colors and I’ll start to say, oh, okay, maybe I think that’s rare. Then I go back to the edit and it’s like yeah, I add that touch of red to it. So, it varies. But mostly I’d say music and using contrasting mediums to kind of offset each other. So if I’m doing design, I’ll stop and do some photography or look at photography. If I’m doing photography, I’ll listen to music. It’s weird. I kind of traverse these different medium when I need inspiration from something else, from another place. So yeah, that’s one of the ways I use medium.

Maurice Cherry:
How would you say your artistic style has evolved over the years?

Chris Charles:
When I first started doing photography, especially when I was in design school, I was implementing design elements within my photography a lot. And it was just how I saw things. I would do a portrait and find a creative way to add text to it or add texture to it using overlays. I think as I’ve evolved as an artist, I think my style has… It’s gotten a lot simpler. So I’ve simplified it. I’ve been able to deconstruct it in a way that there might be some texture, or I’ll just use a textured backdrop or a textured setting, versus actually adding the texture in post.

But also just kind of continuing to try to master fighting in the technical aspects of photography. And then getting into filmmaking and learning that technology and learning how to edit and just being a one-stop shop. Because I just love all those mediums, so why not learn how to do them? And then eventually that became another aspect of my business. So I think expanding, going from this photography, to design and photography, to dabbling in web design. And then, oh, short films, and then doing promo spots for clients and doing commercials for schools and things of that nature. So yeah, learning new technology is pretty much how I think I’ll be evolved over the years, specifically

Maurice Cherry:
Overall, is there a piece of art or a specific project or something that you’ve done that you’re particularly proud of? Like the crown jewel in your portfolio, or something like that?

Chris Charles:
There are a couple, actually. I think most recently I got commissioned by a really amazing local candle making company, Black-owned, to design a signature candle to be distributed through the NBA, the NBA 75th Anniversary candle series. And they gave me full autonomy to design it within the specs of the candle. And with that, I was given access to seeing what the candle kind of smelled like, and taking hints from the notes of the candle and then implementing that into the design. That to me was very exciting, very exciting. And for that to be connected to the NBA was just mind-blowing. I’d say another one is probably the Spike Lee project that between… It was joint project between Spike Lee and Moleskine where they were doing these cheap, got-to-have-it books, Moleskine books. So that’s where that connection happened.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh!

Chris Charles:
I was able to connect with Spike Lee and his team and come up with a… I had to shoot a short film of a local artist, a Black woman artist who embodied the whole image, the vibe of Nola Darling.

Maurice Cherry:
Nola Darling, yeah.

Chris Charles:
It was cool because Spike Lee, huge inspiration for me. One of my favorite movies is near all of them, but I say from an aesthetic standpoint, [inaudible 00:49:37] blues, the way he used colors and contrasting colors to point out personality differences, and music and jazz. I think another fun time was shooting Martin Lawrence and his daughters’ graduation party. And that was interesting and totally random. One of actually, it so happened that his daughter, her hairdresser was my client. They needed a photographer. And she graduated from Duke University. And I’ll never forget this, this was Mother’s Day a few years ago. And I remember going to brunch with my mom and then having to leave and drive to Duke University to their private banquet thing, golf club. And I’m looking at Martin Lawrence and his family. Oh, and Emmett Smith. Because they’re all connected. Emmett Smith, who’s one of my favorite running backs of all times for the NFL is Martin’s ex-wife’s new husband.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, wow.

Chris Charles:
So I’m looking at Martin Lawrence and his family, the kids, Emmett Smith, and I’m just there to take pictures and you’re paying me to do this. Are you kidding me? It’s like, that’s living the dream. So yeah, I’ve had some really amazing… Gosh, I don’t know. It’s times like these, and I’m thankful for you to these great questions because it really makes me think about… For one, if there was any time where I didn’t, or if any people didn’t respect the craft of image-making, be it photography or design, and the times that I’ve doubted it as well. Like oh yeah, people don’t take this stuff seriously. But then one day I’m in Venice Italy, because I was commissioned to be there by a client. You know what I mean?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Chris Charles:
And it’s like, wow, I said that but I’m actually overseas right now, and my whole job is to just be cool and take fly pictures. So yeah, I’ve had a few instances of really amazing experiences and being in rooms and work and opportunities. So yeah, I have a few, that’s what I’m saying, I just can’t pick one.

Maurice Cherry:
I think once again, all of that really speaks to the power of relationships.

Chris Charles:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
It really speaks to being able to know who, not just know who certain people are, but to maintain those relationships enough where people are advocates or sponsors for you in places where you’re not available. Especially with what you just mentioned with shooting Martin Lawrence’s daughter’s graduation, like you said her hairdresser is one of your clients, and so that’s how that all happened. They could have picked any photographer. Martin’s a celebrity. They could have picked any photographer.

Chris Charles:
What’s so funny about that, she just called me randomly and she was like, “Hey, I got a gig for you. Just say yes.” I was like, what? She wouldn’t tell me who it was until the day before. She was like, oh, by the way, this is the Lawrence family and Smith family. Like, “Lawrence who?” [inaudible 00:52:29] I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Relationships, knowing people and doing good work in this treating well manner.

Maurice Cherry:
And the Spike Lee Moleskine, I have the Spike Lee Moleskine. It’s still in the plastic. I refuse to open it.

Chris Charles:
Oh, nice. Yeah, that’s definitely a collectors’ item. Definitely a collectors’ item.

Maurice Cherry:
I’ve had a few people on the show that have done work with Spike, either presently or in the past and stuff. It’s amazing how he pulls in other Black designers to work on his projects, whether it’s like Art Sims doing projects, whether it’s you on this notebook project. I think most recently he did some work with this black typographer I had on the show, Tre Seals for his book, like design the font for the book and everything. Spike is really good about pulling in other Black creatives into his work, which I really appreciate that.

Chris Charles:
And I honestly believe, I think it should be like that. It’s always great to see and I always appreciate it. But how else are we going to continue to spread and learn about each other’s talents without actually giving each other shots and [inaudible 00:53:34] opportunities?

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Charles:
I love to see it. Love to see it.

Maurice Cherry:
What advice do you have for aspiring creative directors or artists out there, particularly those that want to be self-employed like you are and be able to kind of forge their own path?

Chris Charles:
Yeah, I’d say do your homework. And when I say that it’s great to go out with passion and present it, but you have to have a plan. And that could be, do you want to be a generalist? This could be applied to a couple of different mediums, of course. But yeah, do I want to be a specialist? Do I want to be a generalist? I’ve gone back and forth between that as well. For me, it’s about also diversifying, right? I don’t just solely rely on photography or I don’t just solely rely on consulting or design, or filmmaking. It’s about building a brand based on those three words. Like I said, style, creativity, and soul. And thinking about how you want your clients to feel when they work with you and after they’re done working with you, and will that make them want to work with you again? So it’s like a lot of soft skill stuff. I mean, of course, being technically skilled and talented, those are all great things, but if people don’t like you, you’re not going to go very far.

So I think learning how to maintain or establish and maintain relationships with people who align with the vision that you want to sell your artwork to, present your work to, and being able to manage that and navigate that and be in spaces and present yourself well, I think that’s really important. And then also, of course, the more technical stuff about managing business, establishing an LLC, your contracts, delivering, over-delivering at times, under-promising versus the vice versa. Because people will call you out. You said we were going to get 30 pictures, you only delivered 29. It’s like, oh, okay. Gotcha. But if I say I’m delivering 15 and I deliver 30, guess what? Now I’m a rockstar. And a lot of creatives take that for granted. And I also understand that there’s time and money involved with creating and running a business. So be mindful of that. Don’t kill yourself. Rest. Take your time to step away from it and reevaluate, reassess, learn, and then ask for mentorship from people who are already doing it that are in the game.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work do you want to be doing, like future stuff or continuation of what you’re currently on? Where do you see yourself?

Chris Charles:
Yeah, ultimately five years… It’s funny because I’ve been actually writing out my tenure plan. And in the next five years, couple things. I definitely want to have a new physical space to run a shop and have a team, a dedicated team on payroll to where I can manage and be lead creative or a principal for projects that are being done by people that are working for me. But also, I have a really big passion for veterans’ affairs. So I’ve been researching ways that I can somehow participate in helping veterans, be it they’re transitioning or trying to find their way out in the workforce. Or if they’re trying to start a business, there are so many benefits out there available to veterans who they don’t know they’re there and they’re just out here flapping and trying to work, but also might have some disabilities or issues that their workplace or workplaces are required to accommodate. So yeah, that’s a huge passion of mine honestly, in helping veterans, especially veterans of color, transition and live good lives after having lived through some really potentially horrible situations because of war. But yeah, having a shop and helping veterans.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you, your work and everything? Where can they find that online?

Chris Charles:
Sure. So my main website is chrischarles.co. That’s chrischarles.co, not dot-com. The person who owns that domain name refuses to give it up, so I’m stuck with the dot-co and that’s no problem. That’s fine. So that has pretty much leads you to all of the other work that I do. I have a separate photography website, which you can also find once you go to chrischarles.co. But for people who are specifically interested in photography, it’s my full name, christophercharlesphotography.com. I have a Facebook business page, it’s Chris Charles Photo. My Instagram handle is the_chrischarles, so the, underscore symbol, Chris Charles. Those are the main places to find me. I’m there.

Maurice Cherry:
Right. Sounds good. Well Chris Charles, I want to thank you so much for coming on this show. I think certainly everything that you have talked about speaks to two key things that I think folks should kind of take in mind, particularly as we go into the new year. One is about being adaptable, and the second is about building relationships. I think everything that you’ve described about your career to date has been a testament to both of those abilities, and you’ve been able to craft and use both of those to be able to build a career for yourself, build a life for yourself, and continue to do great work out there in the community. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Chris Charles:
Thank you so much for having me, man. This is really fun. Enjoyed talking with you, Maurice. And yeah, anything you need from me, just let me know.

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Sharon Burton

All it takes is a spark to set off a blaze of creativity, and no one knows that better than our first guest of the year, visual artist Sharon Burton. As a creative coach, her specialty lies in helping people reclaim their creative lives, which I think is a fantastic way to start off 2023.

Sharon talked about her coaching practice Spark Your Creative, described the different courses and services she offers, and spoke on how using joy as resilience is a key part of her work. Sharon also talked about growing up in Philly, working in public health, and shared how her time in Atlanta opened her eyes to her true calling.

If you’re looking for a creative spark, then I hope this conversation with Sharon helps you begin this year on the right track!

Spark Your Creative

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Sharon Burton:
My name is Sharon Burton, and I consider myself a creative Jill of all trades. I am an artist, visual artist, and I’m also a poet, and for the last five years, I’ve been working as a creativity coach, for-

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, nice.

Sharon Burton:
Yeah. Everything about me is very much on the creative side. You name it almost, I do it or engage in it or I’m a patron of it, anything of that nature.

Maurice Cherry:
How has 2022 been for you?

Sharon Burton:
It’s interesting, I’ve been talking to a few people about that. I think overall, 2022 has been one of the most positive years in the last few years with the pandemic and all that’s been going on. I think this has been a year that I’ve been able to really enjoy who I am as a creative person. I’ve been a part of all of those three things, I’ve had some positive things that have happened. I’ve been able to get into some exhibitions back to back, which is not always easy. I had my poetry as being… was selected to be in a chatbook that includes other poets in this DC, Maryland, Virginia area. So that’s going to be published soon. I’ve made tremendous headway in a book that I’m writing, which we can talk about later. So there’s been a lot of things that have happened.

I think it’s been a year where I was able to focus a little bit more on some things, and I did a lot of spiritual work on abundance early part of the year. And though it didn’t show up everywhere I wanted it to show up, it did show up, so I can’t be mad. I have to give things to the universe for allowing me to be able to share my gifts in so many different ways, whether it’s coaching, whether it’s doing my own stuff, I’ve been very, very blessed to have some good things happen.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s amazing. Were there any particular lessons that you learned this past year? Are there ways that you feel like you’ve grown and improved?

Sharon Burton:
One of the biggest things that I’ve been really focusing on this year is boundaries, because as a creative person, you can find yourself saying yes to a lot of things and wearing yourself out. So being able to set healthy boundaries is probably one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned this year. I think the other thing is not to… I don’t know how to say this, but sometimes you may not feel you’re getting support for what you do, and to lay back and say, okay, understanding that those that will support you will support you regardless, and those who won’t won’t.

And not taking anything seriously, that’s the other thing. Giving people grace, because one of the major things I think of this time in our nation’s history and where we are going into 2023 is giving a lot of grace to people. Folks have really just been through it with this whole pandemic, and there’s a lot of grieving, a lot of grieving, whether it’s grieving our past way of life, whether it’s people that have passed through COVID or other things, but I notice people are really dealing with grief and grieving. And I think if you’re not really grounded as to who you are as a person, this is a tricky time. And sometimes we can get impatient with folks, but if we give people some grace knowing that people are doing the best they can with what they know, I think that’s the most important thing. So that was the second lesson.

I like this question. No, because I was sitting there thinking the other day, “Okay, what were some of the major things that I’ve learned?” And then I think the third thing is, never too late. Sometimes we think that… And I work with a lot of people who are interested in engaging their creativity or going back to something that they did creatively when they were younger. I work with a lot of people at middle age. And letting people know that, hey, it doesn’t matter how long it’s taken you to get to a certain point, as long as you’re making strides to that.

Those three things, boundaries, exercising healthy boundaries, exercising grace with people because we’re reemerging and we’re trying to get our footing, trying to get back, I think. And I think a lot of people think it’s just going to be right back to what they used to do and how they did things. And a lot of people, I don’t think, really realized that this is a new normal, it’s not… What you knew and how life was at 2018 is not what it’s like now. And if you’re striving for that, you’re going to be disappointed, but if you’re open to new opportunities or new ways of doing things, it will be a better situation for you.
But I think also being patient and showing grace to those like our friends and people that we know that are having difficulty and may not realize it, may not realize that they’re kind of trying to navigate a new world. And that means misunderstandings, that means emotional outbursts, that means a lot of things that… Maybe we didn’t know Uncle Joe was that way, he seems so emotional now. And just sort of understanding that Uncle Joe is doing the best he can navigating.

So those, and then the third thing was, yes, it’s never too late. Yes, it’s never too late. A lot of things that I felt was too late or I felt I was behind on, I was able to move forward with this year. And I think that people need to know that we can’t beat ourselves up over what may not have happened at a time that we felt it should have happened. I think we have to trust the universe that those things happen at the time that they’re supposed to happen. So that’s how I feel about that.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s talk about your coaching business, which is called Spark Your Creative. Tell me about that.

Sharon Burton:
Well, Spark Your Creative is about working with people primarily at midlife, those who are over 40, who want to either engage or reclaim their creative life. For example, if you gave up a lot of your creative life because you got married and had kids, or you were kind of shuttled into a different career choice. Those of your listeners that may be in my age group that came up in the ’80s, let’s say, I graduated from high school in the late ’80s and went to college in the late ’80s, so during that time period, unless you came from a family that was extremely creative, we were not encouraged to go to art school or to engage in these artistic kinds of endeavors that the millennials and Generation Z is being encouraged to do. Now it’s like, “Oh yeah, do it. Do this, do what you want to do.” But in those days, our parents were about, “You need to make money.”

And their viewpoint… And nothing wrong with that, but that’s just how it was at that time, it was the starving artist stereotype. “You’re not going to make money. You need to go into business.” And so it was all about business, engineering, healthcare, law, those kinds of activities was really big at that time. And so just like everyone else, I along with a lot of people I know did what we went to school to do to become employable. So that’s what we did.

And so what I found as I went along is a lot of people were like me that just sort of got derailed from some of their more creative kinds of goals or interests. And I am there to help people kind of develop the confidence and say, “Okay, it’s cool. You can do this. You can do this.” And help them come up with a plan to help them get back on the road to doing whatever it is that they’re interested in doing creatively. So that might be if they were doing art like visual art, if they were playing an instrument and was interested in going back to that, if they are interested in writing and writing a novel, maybe he’s always wanted to write a novel, those kinds of things. So it’s mostly cultural creatives, but I’m willing to work and have worked with people that, for example, wanted to start a podcast or wanted to put together a portfolio of their creative work. So it can go beyond just coaching and helping them unblock, it can go into some administrative things. That’s what Spark Your Creative is designed to do.

Maurice Cherry:
What does a typical day look like for you, because it sounds like with doing that kind of work, you’re probably really involved with your clients on a regular basis?

Sharon Burton:
It depends on the client, and it depends on what’s going on. If I’m working on… For example, I don’t know if you’re familiar with The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Burton:
I’ve done several of a course in that book. So sometimes it looks like making sure that people understand what the assignments are and giving them information such as the whole thing with morning pages, writing three long hand pages every morning. Some people, for example, they don’t know what to write, they’re just stuck. So it might be providing private portal information and support resources for some of those students or clients or whatever you want to call participants in that course. It might look like sending an email following up on a client session. It might look like doing a call with someone via Zoom or meeting them. And I guess I’m getting back to meeting in person, so meeting them and talking with them about their creative goals and where they are. It might look like engaging people on social media. It might look like making sure that I get my newsletter out in time. It might look like doing a workshop or promoting a workshop. It’s all kinds of things, it depends on the day and what’s going on. So that’s pretty much it.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you’ve mentioned the book that you’re working on. Are there any sort of other specific projects you’re doing through Spark Your Creative like workshops or things like that?

Sharon Burton:
Yes. I’m getting ready to do another Artist’s Way course, but I’m going to call it Artist’s Way Light, because that’s 12 pages, and that’s a long time to be in a course. So I’m going to cut that in half. And I do that with Delray Artisan. So that will most likely be virtual so we can allow for people from different parts of the country to participate. And looking to start that around March of this year. I think the other thing that I will be doing is creating a workshop or a course around my book, which will probably be launched maybe late spring or the fall. We’re going to see how things go with the book.

And one of the other things I do, I’m a Yoga Nidra guide, and so I don’t know if you’re familiar with Yoga Nidra, but it’s basically a meditation style of yoga where you’re not moving, you’re just still, and you listen to a person kind of lead you through several levels of consciousness. And it’s a great tool for people who are creative and need a way to unblock. And so I plan to do more of those. I was doing them around the full moon… Or not the full moon, the new moon each month, so I may be doing that again or might be doing it more around the solstices. So we’ll see how that goes. So those are just a few of the things I’m going to be doing.

Maurice Cherry:
And you also have a podcast too, you’re doing a lot.

Sharon Burton:
Yes, I have a podcast, and that’s the Spark Your Creative podcast. And the one thing I love about that podcast is that it gives me an opportunity to talk to creatives in real time about a variety of different subjects regarding creativity. And I’ve done some series’ dealing with everything from creating during uncertain times, particularly in the midst of the pandemic and the social upheaval and trying to help creative stay focused. Filling The Well is one that I did that is focusing on self-care for yourself and staying mentally and physically and emotionally healthy so you can create. But then I also interview people on a variety of different topics that are of interest to creatives, whether it’s creative anxiety, whether it’s working with essential oils, whether it’s working in a creative community, just a variety of different things.

And it’s one of my favorite aspects of my business, and it’s a wonderful way to outreach to people on topics that they may not hear otherwise. There’s a lot of, of course, creative podcasts out there, but I like to think that I do it kind of unique. And I try to engage and invite guests that are in the age group of my target population, so they see themselves or hear themselves talking about these different issues.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, that sounds great. I’ll make sure that we include a link to the podcast in the show notes so people can get a chance to check it out.

Sharon Burton:
Sure.

Maurice Cherry:
So, when you’re starting on a project, and it sounds like there’s a lot of projects that you’re working on, what does your creative process look like?

Sharon Burton:
That’s interesting. I think it really depends on what it is and what’s driving me and inspiring me at the moment. For my business, a lot of my inspiration comes from the input I get from clients and people that engage in my workshops. So if they talk about something or share a source of frustration or something that they need help with, that helps me to create programs, workshops, the book, that I can provide them as a way of support. And so once I get the idea, it’s just sort of mapping it out, talking to people. What would be engaging to you, what format, and then go with that. And that might be a podcast, it might be a blog, it might be a workshop, so it depends. And most likely, there’s probably at least two out of the three that I do. It could end up being a podcast and a blog or a workshop and a podcast or some variation of the three.

So once I get the ideal going, I just map it out and let it flow. Sometimes it can be really quick, like if I do blog topics, I just knock it out in an hour or so. If it’s a podcast idea, that would take longer because I’m usually looking for someone that could really be engaging or has a perspective that I think that would be of interest to people, so they would be able to listen and find that person interesting. And by the way, with podcasts, I don’t do famous people. I mean, if I do, I have interviewed a few popular people in the creativity field, but for the most part, I just try to do everyday people because I want my audience to know that it’s not about popular people who have resources and all this other stuff that can do these things. I want people that sound like them. “I’m balancing taking care of my grandma or my mother and getting these kids into college and…” Those kinds of people.

So yes, there are some people that appear on there that if you’re in the creativity field, but for the most part, my audience is not necessarily following those people. They may not even know who they are. I know them, but they’re not impressed by that they’re impressed with the topic. And the podcast that I have with regular people just sharing their truth is the ones I get feedback on the most, so yeah.

Now, as far as my own creative practice with my art, I decided to focus on looking at the ’40s, the ’50s and the ’60s, which wasn’t that long ago. But those were crazy and very dark. And it could be very dark times with the exception of the ’60s with civil rights really coming into view and things moving and changing. But particularly the ’40s and the ’50s because, and even earlier, because there was so much going on, there was lynchings that were still happening, there was a lot of violence, a lot of miscarrying of justice. And I wanted to find photos where people were smiling, where people were showing joy because it was a reminder to me that despite what I feel is crazy town right now, these people, my ancestors, your ancestors, our relatives, people still found a way to find joy through those dark times. And if they could give us an example about how they used joy as resilience, as a way of resilience, that could kind of inform us.

So I started the series called Joy and Resilience, and it’s been a blessing because those works have been placed in a lot of different exhibitions. And I’m still working on it, I’m still creating work as part of that series. And so when I think of my creative process, the social unrest, all of that, because that was new to your generation and mine, we didn’t experience all that. I was born in the ’60s, so I wasn’t conscious when a lot of things were going on. It’s been my way also of feeling some sort of kinship with my ancestors and with others saying that, “Okay, we’ll survive this. We’ll survive this.” So that inspired my creative process, and that inspired the photographs that I chose and the kinds of images I wanted to convey with that art.

Poetry has been a little different. It seems like relationships kind of got to that. It was my way of dealing with relationships that went sideways or relationships that I was enjoying. It just seems like whoever I’m dating… And not everybody, but certain people I’ve dated have been the muse for me to share my thoughts in writing. Out of all of the different creative processes, that’s been the most spontaneous. That’s like you get on the subway or the metro here, and I take my phone, something will come in my head and I’ll just write it all out. That’s how it comes to me for the poetry. So that’s funny because that has a whole different muse, that has a whole different process, where the others have a little bit more, I don’t know, research or contemplation to it, if that makes sense.

Maurice Cherry:
No, that makes sense. I mean, I think it’s really interesting that your different creative practices kind of have these different, I don’t know, sources of inspiration, I guess.

Sharon Burton:
Yeah, and ways of showing up.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Sharon Burton:
But I think it’s cool, and that makes things so interesting.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, let’s kind of learn more about your origin story. I mean, you’ve kind of alluded a bit to it just now earlier, but tell me about where you grew up, where you’re originally from.

Sharon Burton:
Well, I was born in the Philadelphia, but I was raised primarily in Upstate New York, near Syracuse, New York.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

Sharon Burton:
Know anything about that part of the country or that part of the state? Which is what they call Central New York, Central Upstate New York. So I went to school and graduated from high school and all that up there. My parents were very encouraging to me with art. I think that your parents have great things and not so great things, but one of the great things about my parents were they created a atmosphere for me to be a creative being. And so I really give them props for that because I hear a lot of people talk about where their parents didn’t seem to encourage them to create at all, but that was not the case in my household.

And then I went to college in Virginia at St. Paul’s, and that was sort of the point where I kind of got derailed from the whole art thing. Even though they encouraged that, it was not something… It was more or less, at least with my dad anyway, that if you’re going to do college and if I’m going to pay for it, art thing is nice, but maybe you take that up later. I think you should consider a major that you’re going to make some money and be able to live. And so I ended up going and getting a business degree in marketing. And then I worked for a while after that. When I was in college, I didn’t do any art stuff at all. No art. A lot of my peers did not know I was an artist until really in the last 10 years, they didn’t know.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, wow.

Sharon Burton:
Yeah, because of Facebook. They didn’t know. And a lot of people were shocked about it because I didn’t do it while I was there. It just… I don’t know. I think about that sometimes. But anyway, I went to work in the public sector. That was not planned. I was planning to work in the corporate and private sector, but I had opportunities in the public sector, so I did that. Primarily in public health, which was very different than my major. But I had a love of that, particularly social marketing, which was the term before social media, but social marketing. And you probably know a lot about that anyway, about the types of campaigns and stuff that focus on behavior change.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Burton:
And so I really liked that. And so after I lived in Richmond, Virginia, for a few years and then decided to get my master’s, I went to Clark-Atlanta, and I got a job down there too. So I was working and going to school. And I really liked the public sector, so I got my master’s in public administration there. But that’s when the whole art thing started coming back. I was working, had graduated and started working for a major government agency down there. And every time… I don’t know if you’re based in Atlanta or know Atlanta really well, but at that time they had Atlanta School of the Arts there.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Burton:
And every time I would come downtown, I lived in the burbs, but when I would come downtown to go somewhere or whatever on 75 South, and right there where 75 and 85 merges, if you’re coming from the north, if you look on your right, you would’ve saw the school title. It’s now Savannah School of Art or part of that. And I used to be like… I started getting these little… Kind of little taps in my head, I guess. I don’t know. It was just like this little voice would say, “Okay, you need to sign up for some classes over there.” And I was like, “What?” And it would always happen.

And it got to the point I wouldn’t even look at the school, because I’m like, “I can’t do this.” And at that time, I was in my early 30s, so I was like… Now it’s nothing, but at that age I felt like, “Oh, I’m going to be the oldest one in the classroom, and what makes me think I’m an artist? And maybe that was just in my head? How can you call yourself an artist? You haven’t done this stuff in… You’re not an artist, you’re just going to make a fool out of yourself.” And it kept me from doing it.

But on a dare, a very good friend of mine at the time when I was… I think it was the summer before I started working at the agency or before. Anyway, we were working together on a project, and she kind of dared me to volunteer for the National Black Arts Festival. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but-

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Sharon Burton:
Yeah. And that year, it was interesting because it was a lot of stuff going on. I had been working so hard, I didn’t even realize that that was part of the culture down there. And somehow she brought that to my attention, and I was like, “Okay, cool.” We signed up, and I became a docent for one of the exhibitions. Actually, it was a doll exhibition, which was interesting because my sister ended up a taking up creating dolls, which was… Now that I think of it, that was so wild how that happened. But I also went to… Clark-Atlanta has a gallery.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm, on Park Street

Sharon Burton:
Yes. And went there, and they were talking about the exhibition that was there. At the time, it was To Preserve a Legacy, which was artwork from a number of historically black colleges and universities from across the country. I mean, it was just a jaw dropping… For me, it just changed everything. That’s all I could say. I learned so much about the art and about these different colleges’ collections. I went through the little docent training over there at Clark-Atlanta and the stuff that they were saying, and they’re talking about these pieces and these artists. And I went to lectures at Spelman that they had that summer with different artists. I mean, it just blew my mind.

And there was something that was lit inside of me. The following year or two, I ended up moving up here to take a job in Washington DC, and within two years, I think, two or three years, I started taking art classes. One starting off at the Smithsonian and then some of the local art centers in this area, and started showing my work. But yeah, Atlanta was it for me. That whole thing was just… It was just unexpected. Every time I think about it, a smile comes on my face because I was like… It was just so much fun, and we were around all these different people, and I was learning so much, and it was just sort of like, “Wow, all this is going on.” But that’s how it happened.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. So as you’re mentioning all of this, I mean, I live in Atlanta, I live near the AUC, so I know about Spelman, I know about Clark, I know about the church over on Park Street where Clark-Atlanta’s art department is, even the National Black Arts Festival. I don’t know if… Does the name Leatrice Ellzy, does that sound familiar to you?

Sharon Burton:
No.

Maurice Cherry:
She was the executive director. I think she still is the executive director. She was there for a while, at least when I was working with the National Black Arts Festival. I don’t know if… It doesn’t sound like she might have been affiliated with them yet, but I am familiar with the National Black Arts Festival. It still takes place here. I think it still does. But yeah, it’s so interesting how Atlanta, I guess, I don’t know, sparked your creativity in a way. You were looking at, seeing the Atlanta College of Art, and then you’re getting inspired by Spelman and by Clark. I really love to hear that, because I think when people think of HBCUs, they don’t necessarily think of design and art and creativity and-

Sharon Burton:
No.

Maurice Cherry:
… it sounds like for you it was kind of the opposite, you really kind of got inspired by that.

Sharon Burton:
Well, it’s interesting because art and creativity apparently was very much a part of a lot of these schools. And it’s kind of interesting because when I was working with that particular program and learning so much about these different HBCUs and how they had really thriving art programs and there was a few renowned African American artists that were working at these schools, I was like, “Wow, this is some serious stuff.” And it’s not something that, as you said, that’s really talked that much about, and that was the magic to Preserve a Legacy, that particular exhibition. And I still have the catalog from that show and the poster. And matter of fact, when you first enter my home, that’s the first thing you see, is that poster.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, nice.

Sharon Burton:
And it just sort of gives me a sense of what I’m doing and why I’m doing it. And I will also dare say, it’s interesting, though my college was not represented in that exhibition, art was very much a part of that years ago. Matter of fact, weekend before last, some sorority sisters and I, we all pledged together, we kind of did a reunion weekend. And one of the things that we did was went by a program office that’s affiliated with the college. The college has closed, but they still are working on a number of different projects down there. And they just reopened a portion of St. Paul’s. And we went to visit, and it was interesting, there was these old yearbooks that they had around. And you had a chance to read through them. There were some from my era, and I was like, “Ooh, I guess we’re archival now.”

But there was some older ones. And there was also some photographs and information about an artist in residence that was at St. Paul’s, and how this artist was working with the students on a lot of art projects and everything. And I said, “Wow, this is something… Art has always been a part of African American culture and a part of the academic or academia.” And it’s something that I think, as you said, we don’t talk about it that much. I think the last time I did see something was… I was in New Orleans. One of the Historically Black Colleges there had the work of their students at one of the museums downtown. And I thought that was really cool to see that.

And I can’t remember which school or which museum, but it was good to see that. So I think that’s something, as you said, I would really like to see. There’s a lot of emphasis on HBCUs right now, and I really would like to see somebody really revitalize that particular exhibition, maybe put a different twist to it, maybe include a more contemporary artist than what they had in the traveling show back then, because there’s a lot of younger artists that are in different generations that I think should be showcased, and to let people know that, hey, a lot of art and culture is based at HBCUs. So I think that that’s definitely something to think about.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I think that would be fantastic, definitely.

Sharon Burton:
I would love it. Oh gosh, I would love it, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
So, you got inspired in Atlanta, you moved up to the DMV, what kind of made you decide to strike out on your own with starting Spark Your Creative?

Sharon Burton:
Well, prior to once I got here, I was involved in another entrepreneurial effort. That one, it actually had two… Well, the first iteration was Authentic Art Consulting, and then it was Artinista Art Advisory. And both of them were focused more on… Well, the first one was focused more on working with artists and art locations to put together curated art shows of emerging artists in the DC area. So I was doing a lot of art exhibitions and collaborating with different people on creative activities and showcasing visual art and visual artists in this area. And then I decided I wanted to focus more on the collector, making sure that art education for the collector. So I started the Artinista Art Advisory primarily was to focus on women who wanted to add art to their portfolios as a way of investment.

And so I did those, and then I became… I guess the word disenchanted with the art world. Well, it’s funny, I had hurt my back. These things start with weird… I hurt my back in 2015, and I found myself basically flat on my back trying to heal. And something just told me, “This is not for me.” The art world is a little… I don’t know if you’re involved with fine art world where you are or know how that world works, but it’s very… It can be glamorous, but it can be very cold, and it can be a little cutting too if you don’t know what you’re doing. And I became disenchanted with some of that vibe. And I felt I wanted to continue to work in the field, but I just didn’t feel like I wanted to do exhibitions anymore or interface with museum people and galleries and… Yeah, I just didn’t want to do it anymore.

And it was wearing me down, and I didn’t think my personality fit that. I’m more of a touchy-feely girl. I wasn’t hardcore. I was really into the artists and what their vision was and not necessarily, well, you got to sell this stuff and blah, blah. It just wasn’t working. And a few things had happened, and I’m like, “I don’t think this…” And so, I really had been toying with the fact of creativity coaching. And I’ve known about it, but I just didn’t… and kind of looked at it, but never followed through. And so I decided to do it because I was like… A lot of artists were talking to me about how to do things, and I felt that worked more with my personality than working on that side. So I became certified and started working kind of doing workshops and stuff in that rein, that area, and just enjoyed talking to artists and just enjoyed that whole process. And so it worked out well for me.

And I think that’s something to say too, when it comes back to it’s never too late or whatever, if you got to pivot, pivot. I think sometimes people get… And it was hard because people knew me in one area. Some people were a little resistant to deal with this other area. So rebranding yourself can be tough, but my thing is, do it, do if you need to do it. And I probably will rebrand again. One of the things that I’m really interested in outside of really dealing with artists and working with them is also working with regular folks and lay folks to deal with some of the stuff that’s going on where people need a way to express themselves, whether it’s grief, whether it’s whatever. And so that’s probably a new direction that I’ll be going on in some way in the next two years as well. There’s always something going on with Sharon Burton. She’s always thinking about something.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m glad you mentioned this part about pivoting. We had someone on the show a couple of episodes ago, Nikita Pope, who was also talking about the power of pivoting and knowing when you have the opportunity to do so and just going kind of forward with it. I think it takes a lot of confidence to be able to do that. And I think we’re releasing this episode at the start of the year. It seems like you have a boundless supply of creative confidence, just from what you’ve talked about so far. For people out there that are listen, what advice would you give them to build their confidence up and help engage their creativity?

Sharon Burton:
I think one of the things that I try to make sure people understand, that we’re all creative. And that might sound trite and all that, but it’s really true. We all have creativity inside us, it’s whether or not we want to engage that. So my thing is, acknowledge that you are creative no matter what. Even if you can’t draw a straight line or play an instrument, or, “I can’t do… Get rid of all that, because you are creative. For example, I know people that are great with their makeup. I mean, this is a weird situation, but this is an example. People are artistic with… Women that put eyeshadow on and eyeliner and all that. You know that’s a form of artwork?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Burton:
It’s a form of adornment. And so if you can make your eyes and shade those colors and make everything pop and sing and whatever with your face, you can do art. And people don’t even think about it, but it shows up in different ways. So the first thing is, acknowledge that you’re creative. The second thing is, just like they talk about in business, and I’m not saying art has to be a business, but also think about this, what is your why? A lot of people are saying that now, “What is your why? Why are you doing this?” Well, what is it, what is your why? why Are you thinking about doing something creative? Is it just a stress reliever? Is it that, “Oh, I want to show my work in a gallery, or I want to recite poetry at these spoken word things.” Or is just, “I just want to share it with my family?” Be clear on what your why is.

And I say that because some people, when it comes to creative kinds of endeavors, you automatically find yourself comparing yourself to other people. And when you compare yourself to other people, that tells me that you’re lost on what your why is. Because if you’re doing this for you or you’re doing this to fulfill a dream that you have, it’s not about all these other people. But if you find yourself getting frustrated because, oh, she just posted that on Instagram and that’s way better than mine, and I ain’t going to show that, was that your why?

Were you going to be competing against these people, or do you saw yourself that? Or were you saying, “I want to share my art with the world. I want to make people happy.” If you’re not clear on your why, you can get derailed very easily. And yes, there’s always going to be somebody better than you, whether it’s music, poetry, dance, you name it, graphic design. There’s always going to be somebody better than you. But is that your goal to do this? Is it for joy? Is it because you want to exercise creative freedom or whatever? Be clear on that because that’s going to be your North Star when things don’t go so well.

And then I think the other thing is to find a community or a group of people that are doing what you’re interested in doing, and get involved with them. That could be an art group, it could be a music group, it could be a poetry group. And make sure that they’re supportive of you. You don’t want something that’s like people are just way advanced and you’re coming in as a beginner, but you want a group that maybe takes people at different levels that provide workshops and professional development and support for you. That’s something that I really recommend. I wish I could have done that a little earlier than what I did.

I think the other thing is just to go ahead and try and just find ways to carve out time in your schedule, whether it’s daily or weekly, to get it done. Now, a lot of people say, “Well, I don’t have time.” Yeah, you do have time. You have time when you’re scrolling your social media, you have time when you’re doing all these other things. It’s putting it on your calendar and making it a priority just like anything else in finding ways to do that. So those are my tips.

Maurice Cherry:
Those are some good tips. I like that. I think it is important to kind of really… It’s funny you say, “What is your why?” I know in business, I think they call that your USP, your unique selling proposition or something like that. But finding out the why behind why you’re doing what you want to do is important, because that really is going to fuel you when perhaps it’s not taking off in the way that you want to. Maybe it’s not becoming an instant success or you’re not instantly getting some sort of a claim for it, but if you have an underlying reason and a passion behind why you’re doing it, that’s what will fuel you.

Sharon Burton:
Definitely. And again, instead of… Because it’s just when you don’t have a why, you get derailed. One person says something about your art, and then you ain’t doing it no more. “I’m not an art…” You have to be clear on what your why is and let that be your guide. And a note on that, we have critics and we have people that provide healthy advice. And you’re going to get judged putting your stuff out there, whether it’s poetry, writing, music, if you’re into performance, you’re putting yourself out there, and it takes a certain amount of bravery to do it. I have gotten to the point I don’t care what people think.

And I guess maybe I’ve also developed a style that has improved over time. But what gets me is that when I get into a juried show, that means somebody has picked my work and they think it’s good enough to be a part of this show. And that, to me, is important. Whether it sells or not doesn’t matter to me. My thing, it’s being shown. I am contributing to the world with my art. Someone sees it, and that’s important to me. If I sell it, that’s just a piece of cake, that’s icing on the cake. But if I don’t, I don’t let it bother me because eventually I do sell it, or I give it as a gift, or it ends up being donated somewhere. It gets a home. I’m also lucky that I don’t rely on my art to live. Maybe I would be a little different if that was the case, but I’m blessed to be able to create, I’m blessed to be able to take a theme and interpret that and put that out there for people. That’s good for me.

But that’s my why. My why is about providing beauty, about sharing my gift to the world. Whether you see it as a gift or not, I don’t care. But it’s taken me a while. Because I used to feel some kind of way about my art, but I also know I’ve improved. And that’s the other thing too, if you feel that you’re not at the level you want to be, you can always take classes in anything. And now it’s even… So if you don’t find something near you, you can take something virtually. It’s not like it used to be where… Well, nobody’s doing violin lessons in this area. Well, get online, see if somebody’s doing it on Zoom or something. There’s a lot of more opportunities than there used to be.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh yeah, absolutely. You mentioned earlier that you’re in the process of writing a book. Is the book going to be about this kind of thing, about inspiring people to pursue their creative dreams?

Sharon Burton:
Most definitely. This is a book of affirmations and creativity tips for creatives at midlife. And it actually deals with a lot of common things that creatives deal with, whether it’s dealing with certain blocks, naysayers, people that talk about them or they’re not encouraging of their creative life. And then it has affirmations. And I also encourage you to create your own affirmation. So it’s not just, “Okay, I’m just going to use the affirmation that she puts in there.” No, I have some journaling exercises where I ask you, “Take a look at, okay, if it was a naysayer, where did you hear that before? Who was the first person that said something crazy about your art or your creative endeavor?” And then one thing that people don’t pay attention to, let’s say on Facebook or something like that, people post things and there’s always somebody that says something positive about what you post, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Sharon Burton:
But we don’t pay attention to that. We don’t, we get caught up in this person over here that says something negative. And so my thing is, go on your page, go on wherever you are, and last time… Even if you emailed it to somebody and they said something, let’s write down what those folks said, because those are the people that are in your corner, and those are the people that are talking to you in a positive way and encouraging you. And those are the types of messages you need to hear. So that’s an example of that. And then I challenge people to write their own affirmations based on those messages that they can see and they can put up in their studio or whatever, and wherever in the house that reminds them that they are worthy and that they are a creative and what they’re doing is positive and good. So that’s what the book is about.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you appreciate the most about your life right now? I mean, I feel like you’re kind of in this renaissance period almost with all these creative things that you’re working on.

Sharon Burton:
That’s a very good question, Maurice. I think I’m at a place where I can show up the way that I want to. It’s taken me a long time to do that. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I was not comfortable showing up as a poet or as an artist. I didn’t even think I was really an artist. I just thought, “Well, that must have been something I like to do, but that doesn’t mean I’m an artist.” Yeah, no, I was an artist. I am an artist. I like the fact that I can do poetry, I can do art, two things that I truly love. And even writing, this has been probably… Writing this book has been probably one of my most challenging things I’ve ever done. I don’t know if you’ve ever written a book, but it is no joke, really.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s not. I’m working on my book now, actually.

Sharon Burton:
Yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s no joke.

Sharon Burton:
It is no joke, okay. And procrastination and all this stuff that goes… I probably go through now, maybe because this is new, this is where my creative confidence is not as strong maybe as it is in those other areas, but it’s also new and it’s also different. But I think the thing I do like now, if something, not that I’m wishing anything to happen, nor am I bringing that energy in, but if something were to happen to me, I think I can say I am at a point in my life where I’m not afraid of my self-expression, whether people like it or not. And I think to get here, it took a long time because it took a lot of courage, it took a lot of work on myself and self-awareness, period, to be able to express myself in two ways that I love.

Even though I did visual art first, I did write a lot as a teenager. As a pre-teen and teenager, I wrote a lot of… They were actually song lyrics. They were music in my head, and I would just write the words to them. But poetry, that’s what it is really. And so I was doing both since I was very young. And to return to it and to return to it and the way that I’ve had, which is beyond my expectation or my dreams, to me, is awesome. It is just awesome to be in exhibitions, to have my poetry in a chatbook with some other poets that I admire and have that published, without me contributing any money. Hello. All of that. It’s magic. It’s just beautiful to me. I feel really humbled that the universe has allowed me to do that.

And a lot of people, they get my age and they’ve never done any of those things. And that’s why it’s so important to let people know that you can do that. I’m nothing special, except that I had the time and a little bit of the resources to make some things happen. And some things I just fell into. Like the poetry book, I fell into that group. I didn’t even know when I joined them. I didn’t know they were trying to put together a book. I just was in there and nobody said nothing. We just talked, and next thing I know, they said, “All right, we’re going to get the book together.” I’m like, “What book?” So I think sometimes you’re just in the right place at the right time with the right people. And it’s okay. I’m not trying to be at Art Basel in Miami or at the art fairs in New York. If that happened, that’s beautiful, but that’s not what I’m doing all this for. I’m doing it for me. It’s doing it to share my love to the world. And to be able to do that in two things I love, oh, not many people can say that.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s true.

Sharon Burton:
I’m blowing my own mind right now talking about it Because I’m like, “I haven’t even thought about that question/” Well, that’s serious. That’s a serious question.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, to that-

Sharon Burton:
A lot of people can’t say anything about that.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean, to that end, where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work do you want to be doing? What sort of new work do you want to be doing, that kind of thing?

Sharon Burton:
Well, I think what I’d like to do is, of course, continue with both the poetry and the visual art. With my business, I’d like to expand that to be more therapeutic for people because we’ve just gone through so much right now. And no matter who you are, what your color is or your background, we all have survived a very major upheaval in time. Sometimes, I don’t think there’s enough support for people. There’s not enough therapy, and some people aren’t comfortable with traditional kinds of things. And I think I want to be in a position to help people work through their self, to open themselves to self-expression in a different way.

I have a very good friend of mine who’s been through a lot. I feel he has problems expressing himself and processing a lot that has happened to him. And I think if he were to do something creative, I think he would find a way to express himself and lift that load without feeling too vulnerable. And I think a lot of people are like that. Some people are in denial that they’re not happy or that they’re not able to…

I know another friend who’s… She’s very stoic and kind of comes off as if, well, these things happen and blah, blah blah. And I’m like, “But you just lost your mother, and we’re going through COOVID, and all this other stuff.” And it’s like she acts like she didn’t lose her mom or any… I mean, she’s upset about it, but you can tell she just pushes and pushes, but she’s not expressing herself, she’s not letting it out. And that causes conflict with people. And people will say, “Well, so-and-so is a B and blah, blah, blah.” Well, they may not really be that way, they’re just not expressing themselves about the grief and the hurt and the trauma that they’ve experienced over here. And they may be using you as a punching bag because that’s the only thing that they can do. That’s the only thing they feel comfortable doing.

So I think a lot of people could use art in a way because when you express yourselves artistically, sometimes, yeah, you’re vulnerable, but it’s a different kind of vulnerability than you saying, “I’m drowning over here. I need help.” You know what I’m saying?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Burton:
I think particularly my generation, we don’t do a lot to take care of our mental health, as we should. I think we’re learning to from the younger generation and getting a clue, but I think men and women need a lot of help. They need to work through their grief, they need to work through their anger. And a lot has happened, even before COVID and all that. But I always tell people, COVID brought out everybody’s inner child, and whatever you were dealing with as a child, COVID came right on out when people were told, “You stay in, and wear a mask, and stay six feet away from people.” People fought it, they fought that.

And then those that didn’t fight it, now that we’re coming out of it, it’s coming back, the pent up stuff. And if you’re not aware of what was going on with you as a kid… I’m not a therapist or anything, so please. But we have to be aware of ourselves, we have to be aware of our triggers are. And I think that art is one way that you can get it out without harming other people. It’s a good way. So I see myself doing more on a little more therapeutic side. I really want to do expressive art and work with people on that. I think that that’s needed, and I think that’s going to be needed for some time now, so yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you and about your work and everything? Where can they find that online?

Sharon Burton:
Well, if you’re interested in the creativity coaching, you can find me at Spark Your Creative on Instagram and on Facebook. I’m mostly… Well, I’m on both, so that’s a good place to find me. My website is sparkyourcreative.com. You can join my email list, and you can get information and tips and all that wonderful stuff there. If you’re interested in my artwork, you can find me @sjbcreates, and also my poetry there. And you can find me there on my Facebook or on Instagram, SJBcreates. And that’s a private account, but if you request, I’d be more than happy to add you on. And then my website for my artwork is sjbcreativeart.com.

Maurice Cherry:
All right, sounds good. Well, Sharon Burton, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I can not think of a better way to start off the year with having someone that has such a wellspring of creativity to share with people. Hearing your confidence about your creativity, I think it certainly is inspiring me. I hope it inspires other people out there as well to really get out there and start to do their own thing as well this year. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Sharon Burton:
Oh, no problem. This has been one of my favorite podcast interviews, actually. You had me thinking, so I do appreciate that. And I look forward to hearing from some of your listeners about their thoughts about their own creativity and how they express themselves. I think it’s an important thing.

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Traci L. Turner

I don’t know about you, but that whole “they sleep we grind” mentality of working is not the move. There can be a lot of external pressure to constantly push yourself to the limit with your work, but there’s also payoffs from doing work at a pace that makes sense to you. That’s what drew me to talk with this week’s guest, Traci L. Turner.

We started our conversation on building creative momentum after big life changes, and she talked about her new focus on portraiture as well as her current artistic process (including doing a podcast). She also spoke on growing up in DC, attending college, and the challenge of balancing her art with a 9-to-5 job in her early career. Traci also shared some of her goals for this next chapter of her journey as an artist. It can be easy to get caught up with trying to compare yourself to what others are doing, but take Traci’s advice: just feel comfortable with doing what you want to do!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Traci L. Turner:
Hey, I am Traci L. Turner. I am a visual artist specializing with and mostly oil painting. And I live in Reno, Nevada.

Maurice Cherry:
How’s the year been going for you so far?

Traci L. Turner:
It’s been a lot of stop and go on my end. Late last year, I had a career change, so I’ve been trying to find the right job fit in my life, and also reconnecting with art and painting. And that’s been such a long process, but this year feels like the time when I’m back at it. And I’m having fun with it again, I’m excited, I’m inspired. So that’s been the tone since early January, just stopping and going with career and then picking art back up again. So that’s been going. It’s been slow, but it’s going.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. It’s good that you’ve picked things back up again. Now that you’ve done that, is there anything like in particular that you want to try to accomplish before the year ends?

Traci L. Turner:
I want to get more organized, I think I want to be even more intentional than I was about making art and what I’m trying to say and what this stage is because I definitely feel like I’ve pivoted in subject matter and just how I feel about art making in general. So I want to make sure that all of that comes together. What I’m trying to do is not get to the point where I’m not making art again for a long time, that was just so hard. And so I want to build that momentum. I want to just not put too much pressure on myself and I want to hopefully connect with people by commissions hopefully.
I think that that’s a process that I want to start incorporating, just that collaboration. And I don’t know, it’s also a nice way to make a little side money, if I’m being honest, but I’m not focused on that so much, it’s just making art and rediscovering what I like about it at this point in my life.

Maurice Cherry:
Talk to me more about that pivot. I can tell from looking at your website that you have done a lot of portraiture work, is that what you’re pivoting into or pivoting away from?

Traci L. Turner:
I want to lean more into that now. Back in school, that was when I discovered my love for depicting the human figure and portraits after, I don’t know, just being young and trying things out and just figuring that part of the world out. I don’t think I really stayed with that too often, but lately, I think that’s what I want to get back in into. I think that’s more my wheelhouse, I think that’s where I’m most comfortable. Well, as I mentioned before about the collaborative part, I like that part of things, so collaborating with a person and depicting them as a work of art in my own way, I guess.

Maurice Cherry:
Are you working on any specific pieces now?

Traci L. Turner:
I do have one that’s in the works. It’ll be probably the biggest one I’ve ever done size wise and price wise. So it is a friend that reached out to me. She wants me to do a posthumous portrait of her mom and it’s taken a couple years for us to finalize it. Mostly because I think she was going through that grieving process, she wasn’t ready for a while. And then our schedules needed to line up and I was in a slump and just a whole bunch of things just got in the way of getting things started. But finally, we’ve gotten to that point and that’s a piece that I got the green light to work on now.
I’m happy with that because that’s the statement, I think, I want to start making with my work, just having people know me, reach out to me, want me to do something for them, and we just hash that out together. I want to see more of what that’s like.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. My brother, he’s an artist in general. He does, or he has done in the past woodwork stuff and pencils and sketches. He got all the artistic ability in the family. I am not that artistic by the stretch of the imagination, but he does a lot of portraiture as well. He did my photo, he did like a big 24 by 24 painting of me, which I hate to say it’s sitting in storage because I was like, “This would be so weird to have in my apartment, a big ass picture of me.” It made me think of Whitley Gilbert from A Different World and how she had that Warhol, like four piece in her room. That would be weird.
But he’s a great artist. So I’m not saying that to diminish his talent because he’s done several of our family members and stuff. So there’s a definite market in portraiture, absolutely. It feels like, not a dying art, I don’t want to say that, but it feels like an art that you just don’t see that much of it now, I guess, maybe with the advent of technology, you don’t see that many paintings like that.

Traci L. Turner:
You’re right. It is very old school, because I know back in the day, it was something that was always commissioned by rich people. So maybe there’s a class thing too that was involved. And I think also it’s one of those things that there’s not much else you can do with it. So I get what you’re saying when you say it’s a “dying art” and I almost feel the same way too, but I’m just going to do it anyway because that’s what I like to do. And I still enjoy looking at how people do portraiture in their own way. I think I prefer more of, I would say, maybe what realistic representations than the ones that are super abstract, but as far as painting, I love what I’m seeing other people’s interpretations of the medium.

Maurice Cherry:
Well tell me about, how do you approach a new piece of art or a new portrait? What’s your process like?

Traci L. Turner:
Well, right now it’s where it’s coming from. A lot of it is coming from just, well, I want to do a series of friends and family, I think. So it’s hearing you talk about your brother doing a portrait of you, it’s like, oh that hits close to him. I think that’s what I’ll be doing too. Just because it will make me feel good, I think, I think it’s a way of memorializing these people and these connections that I have, people that inspire me, people that really understand me and who I feel just are doing amazing things in life, even though they may not think so. So I think I want to pull from that as inspiration.
It’s been a while now, but I had started a series of memes and I was doing that as a way to practice getting into portraiture again in a way that was fun and it’s super easy to find those images and you can get creative and people can connect with that. Because they’ve seen these things over and over again, so it’s just like an inside joke and I like that aspect to it. So in that case with the memes, it’s more about, well, what do I think is funny? What do I think I can do? What do I think is going to resonate with people, especially when I post online, what are the jokes that we’re going to be flying to each other back and forth?
I definitely think about how it’s going to be received. Maybe I shouldn’t, but in that way, not in so much that I want them to critique my work, but just I think about how the work is going to have me connect with people once it’s out there, for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I’ve seen some of the meme paintings, you’ve got them on your website. There’s the crying Jordan meme, there’s New York from Flavor of Love sitting in the bed. There’s Nick Young with the question marks. These are good. These are really good.

Traci L. Turner:
Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s interesting that you say that you will do some paintings to see how other people or what the, I don’t want to say, reaction, but what other people think of it. Because I feel like portraiture invites that, probably more so than other art forms. Portraiture really invites you to look at it because in a way it resembles a mirror because it’s going to be in a frame of some sort, but it’s something looking at you. We have always seen in movies and television shows that trope about a painting’s eyes following you throughout the room or something like that. It almost invites you to have that one-on-one connection.

Traci L. Turner:
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve done a few self-portraits and that’s been a casual ongoing series for me, but I want to be a little less inward now and just try to show how I’m viewing other things, I think.

Maurice Cherry:
Did you have any, I don’t know, pandemic paintings? I know you said you recently came back into it. It sounds like there might have been a time when you lost the love for it.

Traci L. Turner:
Yeah. I know exactly when that happened too. It was before the pandemic. This was back in 2017, I believe it was. I had an artist residency at the Torpedo Factory, in Alexandria, Virginia, because I was living in Reno at the time, I got accepted, so it meant going back home essentially. And I was out there for about a month. And I hit a wall right after that. I think what it was was maybe I just expected too much from that experience. I think I went into it expecting, “This is the moment, I’m really going blow up.” I’ve been grinding all these years, I’ve been doing this work, I’ve been developing this style that I feel like really speaks to me, it feels unique to me, and had been doing shows and all that.
And I did this artist residency and I thought that that was going to be the moment that I’m going to get noticed, I’m going to start getting gallery representation, all that stuff. And maybe I shouldn’t have done that, I don’t know. Maybe I didn’t really understand what an artist’s residency experience was supposed to do, but because I expected that and that’s not really where it went, I felt really depressed and lost my steam after that. For quite a while I thought, “All right, I need to maybe reevaluate some things. Why am I doing this? Is it to be super well known and make money and all this stuff? Or what if that never happens? Does that make me a failure?”
It was just all these questions that I had to sit back and look at and try to understand. And it took several years, I’m not going to lie, just sputtering, sputtering. And I didn’t really do art for a while. Maybe just a few one offs here and there, but I just didn’t feel like it. So what ended up happening through that, I had started a little podcast on my own, was called Art Life Confidential. When I put it out, in my mind it was for other people because I was feeling so lost. I wanted to try to pose these questions and answer them for other people. But I think it was also for me too.
It was just another way to try to connect and understand this thing that we’re doing out here, being an artist, being a creative, whatever that is, this abstract thing that has sometimes very little physical payoff in the other 3D world. And I wanted to try to encourage myself and encourage other people to keep going even though I wasn’t really doing anything. And it took a while and then I made some changes in my personal life, I fell in love, I have a partner now and we’re raising his daughter together. And that takes a lot of time out. I wasn’t really doing art, but I was still just living life.
Now that everything on that end is settled and I think my career path actually has a little more direction now, it feels maybe safer to bring art back in. At this point I feel like I’ve grown, I’ve answered a lot of questions that I needed for myself, I understand what I want to do a little bit better. I understand the things I don’t like about art and just trying to focus on the things that I do appreciate. And it took, well, like four or five years almost and now I’m feeling like, “All right, I’m good. And I want to get back at it.” That was the journey for the last couple of years in a nutshell.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I think what you’re mentioning here, well, at least what I’m drawing from it also is that sometimes it’s important to just live life, especially I think if you’re doing something as tactical, creatively as painting, there might be this notion that you just have to keep doing it all the time. And if you lose steam and you take a break from it and you just live life, maybe it’ll come back, maybe it won’t. It doesn’t diminish you as an artist when that happens, it’s life, it just happens.

Traci L. Turner:
Yeah, you’re right. And that is exactly what I have realized. And just that I’m still an artist, even if it’s not my main job, you know what I mean? I’m still an artist, even if I’m on a hiatus. That was something I noticed too, even though I wasn’t actually painting, even creating a podcast and doing that is a creative thing, I was still drawn to be in creative or talking about, I was still making that connection even though I wasn’t exactly painting, I was writing a lot more. I think I may have even been doing more blogging. I started making YouTube video. It was just basically everything that I could think of that was still in a creative realm, even though it wasn’t painting.
And that helped me a lot. And it did reinforce that, “Well, you are still an artist, you can still do these things. And even if you’re not doing those things, that’s still who you are.” And so once that hit and I was able to actually embrace that, it just all finally clicked. And I feel really good now about where I am. And even though it is slower than I may be used to, I still have everything I need, I still know I can pick it back up and it’s going to be great. Even if I’m rusty it still brings me that joy. Yeah, absolutely.

Maurice Cherry:
As you mentioned, that just reminded me of I used to be a musician for a long time, a long time. And I gave it up, I guess, right around the time I turned 30, I was like, “I need to focus on just doing something else.” And I feel like you never lose that talent, you always will want to do it in some way. So for you, you never lost the will to keep creating, it just transformed into something else, which I think is for creative, something really important to recognize.

Traci L. Turner:
Yep. I completely agree. And hopefully that’s encouraging too for other people. One of the things, let’s see, I want to say maybe in my early 20s, I think that’s when I officially decided that I was going to be more focused on being a fine artist and developing my skills. After art school, I would take these one-off classes or you keep in touch with college friends and they start falling off real quickly once you hit the real world. You know what I mean? Maybe they still doodle here and there, but in the art classes I would take after college, I would be the youngest one there. And then I was in conversation with one of the other students and they said, “Well, I used to paint or draw or whatever. I used to be this artist and then life just happened.”
And then they would retire and they’re there taking these classes trying to connect with it again. And I remember thinking, “Dang, what happens in those 20, 30 years after you just don’t do it, it’s just gone?” I was like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want that to be me.” I always had that in the back of my mind just like, how do I keep this alive for myself? I don’t want to be one of those people where it’s just, “Oh, life just happened.” And then life just happened to me and then I stopped for a while. And I get it, I totally understand that now.

Maurice Cherry:
And it doesn’t sound like you forced it either. When you had the feeling of making art dying down, you just lived life and then it eventually came back to you. I just think that’s something that’s important for creatives now to really know, especially in this hustle, hustle age that we’re in right now, where everything is about doing all the things in all the places in all the platforms. And it’s like, do you have to do that? I look at these kids on TikTok, I’m like, “That’s a lot.” I know people that have quit jobs and like, “I’m going to become a professional of content creator.” In the back of my mind, I’m like, “Good luck with that. In this attention economy, good luck with that.”
Some of them are successful at it, but they burn out in two or three years. It’s like, you run hot doing that stuff so much that you don’t really give yourself the time to recuperate, to fill up your own cup. You can’t pour from an empty cup. Isn’t that what they say? Something like that.

Traci L. Turner:
Yep. It’s very true. Absolutely.

Maurice Cherry:
So let’s talk about your origin story. You alluded to earlier being from DC, like the DC Metro area. What was it like growing up there?

Traci L. Turner:
Well, I loved it. I lived in Maryland just right outside of DC, was always just right at the cusp. And I would say I had a pretty chill childhood for the most part. See, I was exposed to art by my oldest brother because he would always draw and I just liked what he was doing and I was definitely way more introverted. So just any little task like that where it’s like, “Oh, I can just do this on my own to myself,” I was drawn to. And it started because I asked him to teach me how to do bubble letters. And after that, it just took off. I didn’t know much about just the art history or fine art or anything like that. Not really at the time. It wasn’t until college that I learned about all that stuff.
But until then it was just me just drawing, just a sketchbook and vibes. That was drawing anime characters all the time, obsessed. It was just so fun and so pure. And that’s just how I knew that, “Okay, this is just what I’m supposed to do.” I didn’t know you could do it as a career until, I guess, I had to start thinking about it after high school. My mom, she was just always supportive of me doing that, just whatever I wanted to do. She knew I was into art, she’s like, “Then go to art school, check it out where you want to do.”
I was like, “Oh, I didn’t know that there were schools for art. I could just go there and focus on that.” That’s what led me to, it’s called something else now, but at the time it was Maryland College of Art and Design. It was school in Silver Spring, Maryland. It was a two-year school. I went there and it was pretty awesome. I have to say I was around so many like-minded people and it was a mix of people. And that’s when I learned I loved paintings, up until then it was just drawing stuff, just pencil and paper. I got introduced to oil painting through this classes there and to art museum in Downtown for the first time, National Gallery of Art, later they added the National Portrait Gallery, which is my favorite one.
Every time I go home, I always try to check to see what’s new there. I would say it was a pretty chill, easy time. I graduated though. I didn’t have the confidence to present myself to the art scene there though. I just wasn’t ready. Maybe I just didn’t think I was good enough. I didn’t really have a direction at the time either. I just wanted to work at that point. I was like, “I just want to work and move out of the house and I’ll figure all the other stuff out later.” And that’s what I did. I had started a blog, it was called, I don’t even know if the domain is still up, but it was called Purple Paintbrush.
And I went to the different art events in the city to write about them. I just thought that would be fun just to show, “Hey, this is what’s going on. These are the events that are going on. Here’s my perspective, I took some pictures.” And after a while I thought, “Wait, I could do this. Wait, I’m an artist. Why don’t I just do art? I don’t have to show other people, I can do my stuff.” And that’s when I started going back to take classes and was like, “I don’t know where this is going to go yet, but let me learn the skills.” I didn’t learn much about art business in school. That’s the one caveat to art school honestly.
You’re mostly there for technique and I guess to network, but if you’re not really good at that, then it’s, I don’t know. I don’t want to say it’s unnecessary to go if you want to go, but personally, I never went back to school full time because I just didn’t think that I got enough out of it. And I learned way more once I was on my own and sought out resources. There’s just so much that’s out there for free. So that’s how I started getting more serious, just reading books, looking at stuff online, they had free workshops around town.
That’s one thing I’ll say about living in a metropolitan area compared to where I am now, which is a way smaller town. There’s just so much to see and do and so many programs and workshops, you just have so much access. And sometimes it’s free. So I just took advantage of a lot of that. And I taught myself a little bit about how to present myself as an artist, how to go to galleries and how to start a website, all that stuff.

Maurice Cherry:
You just picked it up on your own?

Traci L. Turner:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because it was like, “Yo, you can do this yourself.” And I was like, “Oh, okay. Then I’ll just try it out. Why not?” I had studied some design in school so it didn’t feel too out of the ordinary to try to come up with “branding” or graphics or to throw together a website or just like the admin stuff, I guess of being an artist. It’s a lot of work. It’s so much work marketing. And once social media was becoming a big thing and people started using that to promote themselves, I think I got on it late, but it’s still one of those things where you have to use it as a tool to put yourself out there.
A lot of the contexts I’ve made have been because I just put myself out there. Somehow they found me or just being out and about talking to people, telling people, “I’m an artist.” Even if I didn’t feel really believe it, you got to say it. Even just that was enough to open certain doors or to have opportunities just saying it, you know.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, while you were out there, this is post-college, you were you taking these courses, you were blogging… By the way, your blog is very much still online. I’m looking at it right now.

Traci L. Turner:
Oh my gosh.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s great. It’s great. You should not be ashamed of it. I’m going to read some of it. And you might think this is really interesting. There’s a section in a post that you wrote called Recap, Regroup, Restart.

Traci L. Turner:
Oh my gosh.

Maurice Cherry:
And in the Regroup part, you say, “Now, that you’ve reviewed the year you’ve had, it’s time to regroup. This is a planning stage. This should also be considered a resting stage. Take a bit of a break from life. But Traci, how can I be productive if I’m taking a break? Hush, because planning and chilling out is productive as long as you’re intentional about your time and set a time limit.” You’ve got some good stuff here. You talk about a painting workshop that you did at Bay Area Classic Arts Atelier?

Traci L. Turner:
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Dang. Oh my gosh. This is bringing back some memories.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m not going to read it verbatim, but if you still want to search it out, it’s online.

Traci L. Turner:
Oh my gosh.

Maurice Cherry:
I want to talk about your post-college work because you said you were taking these courses, doing all these things, you were writing about your experience, I think is amazing to do all of that. You were also working at a company, you were working at this place called CustomInk. You were there for a long time. You were there for almost 15 years. How were you balancing that along with your fine artwork?

Traci L. Turner:
Well, it was the kind of job that, no shade to them, but it was the kind of job that where I could just turn it off. I didn’t have to commit really tough. I didn’t have to take it home with me. And after a while, I got into the rhythm of it, it was like doing it with my eyes closed. So being at a job like that where I didn’t have to really put that much energy into it allowed me to pursue art and be excited about that and put the energy and passion into that. And I did it, I stayed there for so long because of it. It was just a place I could park while I was trying to build this creative career basically. And it fit, it was just such a good fit for so long.
And then maybe it’s, I don’t know, growing up, maturing, getting to a certain age, I got serious with my partner. And so we’re figuring out plans for our future, I think, all of that coming together made me think that I needed to do something else for my career. I was getting frustrated at the job, I wasn’t really doing… I should say I wasn’t really grinding so much with art anymore. So it was like this, “Where do I put this energy now?” And it was a blessing and a curse being at that company. It was so good because I was able to do so much with my creative life, but then once I needed to change things, I had pigeonholed myself at this company, I couldn’t really move up.
I was only really good at that one thing. Luckily, in grinding so much and doing all the things myself, as far as my art career, I still learned a bunch of different skills. So in evaluating that I realized, “Okay, I can probably do marketing jobs. If I were to leave this company, I have this creative background, I know some technical things, I know the social media, digital marketing side. All that stuff I’m really familiar with and have to stay on top of.” So I was like, “Someone’s going to have to give me a shot.”
It was maybe last August, that marked the end of my career there at CustomInk because I was like, “I need to fuel myself a different way now.”

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. So you were there from 2007 to 2021. That’s a long time to be… And when I say it’s a long time to be at one place, I don’t mean that in a bad way. I see what you’re saying about how it can pigeonhole you. When I think about how much the design industry has changed from 2007 to now, and the fact that you were still able to be at one company, doing design work is a feat. You should be super proud of that.

Traci L. Turner:
Well, thank you for saying that. Oh my gosh, I had a completely different and probably disparaging… Awesome perspective on it.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I think what’s interesting with design is certainly in the 2000s, I think web design, visual design online was starting to be taken more seriously. When I came into the web, which was right near the beginning of the 2000s or so, you could either be a web designer, a web developer or webmaster. Those were the three tasks you could do. And I would say probably even right around by the time of 2007, you were either a web designer or web developer, I think webmaster probably phased out and became system administrator or something, but there wasn’t that much-

Traci L. Turner:
I hope there isn’t webmaster anymore.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. But back then, there wasn’t that much variation with what you could do with design online. And then the 2010s was just all about, I feel the rise of UX, the rise of product. You have so many tech focused companies that are building these design teams that are not just visual designers, but there’s also researchers, there’s writers, there’s all different matters of design coming out, experience design and things like that. And so what I think about is just how much it’s changed and the fact that you were able to still be at one place, that is a real feat because the industry has changed so much and you’ve still been able to maintain at one place. That’s really good.

Traci L. Turner:
Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I came out of that experience thinking, “Dang, what can I do after this? I’ve been here for so long.” It was my first major job right after school. It did afford me a lot of different things as far as my independence goes and it was through that job that I was able to move across the country to Reno. And this is my home now. So I’m thankful for it. But at the same time, career wise, I thought, “Oh man, I should have had a backup or something.”

Maurice Cherry:
Because what you see right now in the market, and I mean right now is when we’re recording, it’s late June, there’s been a slate of massive layoffs from tech companies, mostly with their design teams. And I know from building teams myself, I know we’re talking to other people that recruit, they’re always like, “Oh, well, these designers are bouncing around there at one place for one year. They’re at one place for two years. They’re not staying and putting down roots.” And the reality is it’s hard to stay and put down roots now as a designer, it’s super hard to do that because the way that companies, at least tech companies and design companies have changed so much and they’re trying to really keep up with the market and with new advances and things like that, they’re cycling people out.
So it’s tough to stay somewhere for a long time. I got back into working a nine-to-five in late 2017 and my first place that I worked at was a startup called Glitch. And I worked there for roughly about two and a half years. And then during the pandemic, they cut our whole department. And so after that, I worked for a startup. This startup’s not an ideal place, go somewhere else. Go to this startup. You end up bouncing from place to place because you’re trying to find a place to park. And the reality is, CustomInk, for what it’s worth, I’ve ordered from CustomInk, they’re a pretty stable company because people always need t-shirts.
As long as there’s a family reunion, a conference of some sort, people will always need printed custom swag of some sort. So I get that. But a lot of these tech startups are so fly by night. You hope they’re going to stick around for five years, let alone whether or not you’ll be there or not, you just hope that the company is actually there because the market may change and focus on something else. And now what you were doing two or three years ago is now phased out or obsolete and you got to jump to something else.

Traci L. Turner:
So true.

Maurice Cherry:
Being at one place now for that long, as long as you were there, that really is something.

Traci L. Turner:
Thanks. It was cool. It was really cool. I think I was just so focused on what I was trying to do outside of there, it just, I don’t know, it made it so easy. You know what I mean? I guess I didn’t think so much about, “Let me advance here and learn all these other stuff I can do here.” It was just, “What can I do for my art? How do I learn what I need to do for art?” I think I am very thankful that I was able to do that there for so long.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, one thing that we’re starting to see, I think probably over the past, maybe 10, 15 years or so is a lot more black fine artists and their work starting to be exhibited in more mainstream type of venues, whether that’s at a big art show or even on a television show or an independent movie or something like that. You mentioned the National Portrait Gallery, of course that had me thinking about the Obama portraits, which were by two black portrait artists, Kehinde Wiley and Amy Sherald. What do you think about that kind of exposure? If you see, I don’t know, I’m thinking specifically, a while back I had Dawn Okoro on the show and some of her work was featured on BET’s, The First wives Club.
And I was like, “Does that help you as an artist, that kind of exposure? Or what do you think about it when black artists get that mainstream exposure?

Traci L. Turner:
I think it’s pretty awesome. At least that’s how I feel about it for now. I hope it’s something that can happen to me to be honest. I was like, “Let me just keep posting, maybe somebody who’s going to want me to have my artwork in the background of they show or something.” I think it’s super cool that black artists and creatives are getting that recognition. They’re getting their flowers now rather than after they’re dead. You know what I mean? Because there’s just so many people out there really spearheading what that “genre” is, which is black art and being a black artist. I think the more we can see what people are doing the better.
So that was something I struggled with for a while because I wouldn’t say that I do black art necessarily, but I can also say, well, it is black art because I’m a black artist. So whatever I do is black art. But it seems that term was only applied to, I don’t know, a certain aesthetic and it was something that I just didn’t feel connected to. It was like they only want to see our work if it’s talking about or depicting the black experience or pain or just to something along those lines. But I like seeing now that there are artists that are doing just abstract art, they’re doing whatever they want to do. They’re drawing manga and comics now and I’ve even seen meme art.
I like seeing that there’s a variety now of what’s out there as far as what black artists are doing and what we are inspired by. It’s not just about the struggle, it’s not just about Afrocentric imagery. You know what I mean? There’s just so much more to us. And so I think when any creative gets put on in a way like that where it’s just… I loved that the Kehinde Wiley and Amy Sherald got their shine for sure, for the Obama portraits. I thought that was such a milestone in art in general, just fine art and the business of art and then just black art history. That’s American history.
That’s, I don’t know, that was very inspiring, especially for me as a portrait artist to just see that, to see that and to have their work be seen by so many people. People flock from all over the world, probably the country for sure to go see these artists works. And I know they were pretty well known in their own right, but to see them get launched up even higher, that’s what we want. That’s what we want to see, especially because a lot of the artists, when you ask someone, “Oh, who’s your favorite artist or where do you draw inspiration from?” A lot of what we’re used to hearing are the old masters, which are these old white guys, which is fine. That’s what they were showing back then.
But I want to know, well, who are the masters of now? Who are going to be the people we’re going to be citing a century from now or whomever? And I’m hoping that more black artists, this is that moment where we’re seeing, “Oh, okay, here I’m going to be the masters of our future.” The future generation is going to be like, “Kehinde Wiley, that’s my old master.” You know what I mean?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Traci L. Turner:
I think it’s super cool. Really cool. And I hope it continues to happen as long as it isn’t exploitative, of course. So far, I think it’s been in celebration.

Maurice Cherry:
Who are some of the mentors that have really helped you out in your career?

Traci L. Turner:
Man, I wish I had a mentor. Is anybody taking application? I feel like it’s just been me out here, but I will say there was a teacher that I had when I was back in art school, he was my painting teacher. I guess I can’t really say he was my mentor, but he was very inspiring and encouraging to me. And I do think of him often, especially now, because I feel, man, I have a little bit of a career. I didn’t know what this was going to look like for me 15, 20 years ago, but I can say, well, I’ve done some shows and I have series and I’ve written about my art and I just have this whole presence now in a way that I never thought I would have.
And I think back to those moments in classes with him when he encouraged me to experiment with color. There was just so much I didn’t realize I could do, and when I had the idea, even if I was hesitant, he was like, “Yeah, try it, you should do it.” He gave me critiques, and they were always very constructive and meaningful. That was such a launchpad for me, just being able to have that influence so early in my art career. It’s so funny, I did look him up recently. He’s still doing art and he is, he’s still out there doing art. He’s moved. So he doesn’t teach at the school anymore. But he looks happy living life.
I was like, “Maybe I’ll reach out.” But I haven’t yet. I don’t know, I’m too scared. But maybe after this, talking about it now would make me get the confidence to reach out and say what I just said just now.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, reach out to him, give him the timestamp on this episode and he can just listen to it.

Traci L. Turner:
I will.

Maurice Cherry:
Do you have a dream project that you’d love to do one day?

Traci L. Turner:
I haven’t figured out who the famous person I would want to do yet is, but I would like a commission from somebody that’s famous or someone that finds me or maybe it’s word mouth or maybe they hear me on this podcast and they want me to do a portrait or commission for them. That would make me feel like, “All right, I’m doing okay out here.” Just some celebrity or famous person reaches out, but I don’t know who I want it to be yet. I think right now, beggars can’t be choosers.

Maurice Cherry:
You’re on YouTube, you’re on TikTok, you’re on social media, shoot your shot. If there’s a celebrity that you admire, just, “I think I’m going to make a portrait of them and see what they think about it.”

Traci L. Turner:
Go for it. Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Doesn’t hurt. Doesn’t hurt. So I want to go back to this podcast that you mentioned before, Art Life Confidential, you mentioned you’re not doing the podcasts anymore. Have you thought about picking the mic back up again?

Traci L. Turner:
I really do want to, I have to figure out when, how is that going to fit into my schedule? My life is a little bit packed for right now, but I anticipate that it’s going to calm down soon. So once that happens, then I think that’ll be the point where I return to podcasting. Because I really do want to revisit that vision because it was really fun. And I went through all that trouble to make the website and the branding, everything. And I had a whole bank of topics that I might have to retweet now because there’s just so many newer things to talk about. I think some of the stuff that I wrote down is pretty outdated now.
So I want to have a space or resource in the podcast basically for other artists out there who are taking the leaps or want to advance their skills or their careers or their learning kind of how I did. You know what I mean? Not everybody can afford to go to school, I barely was able to do it. So I would love to be able to build that out, a resource for people or even just a space for people to commiserate or feel like, “Oh, okay. I feel seen, I’m doing this thing. I’m not alone out here. There are so many other people who understand this crazy pursuit that we’re doing as artists.” Nobody else gets it other than another creative person.
I had such big dreams for that and I would do want to get back to it. I don’t know, there’s a part of me that wants to be a mentor in that way. Not that I’m saying I know everything, but I don’t know, I think about how hard it was for me just fishing around by myself, not having that guidance. Just anything that I can offer from what I’ve learned or from what I’ve picked up from other people I would love to put back out there for people so they can have some help, some guidance. I don’t know, it gets dark. It gets dark in some of those moments as an artist. And I would love to be a little bit of that light to help people just stay with it. So hopefully soon, before the end of the year, I hope to have a couple more episodes added.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. Pace yourself. The thing with podcasting is eventually you want to build up to a schedule that your audience knows that they can depend on hearing episodes or stuff from you. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong, especially if you’ve already been doing podcasts. If you come back and just say, “I’m just going to do it maybe once a month or once every two weeks.” And roll into it slowly as you start to build back up to it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with doing that, you don’t have to hop right back into every week or something like that, just at your own pace, it’s your show. So you can do whatever you want to.

Traci L. Turner:
I was thinking maybe I could do it in seasons.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a good idea.

Traci L. Turner:
Yeah. It could maybe be a once a month kind of thing or every two weeks and then that’s a season, and then I’ll take some time, do what I need to do, then come back, “Here’s the new season.” So you’re absolutely right, I think pacing myself is going to be key there. Because my life is just so different from where it was, shoot, even three, four years ago. I had so much time. So now it’s like, “How do I maintain all of that with a family basically?” And shoot, I have two jobs now because I’m crazy. And just all this stuff. So I think pacing is going to be exactly what I need to figure out.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you want people to see when they look at your work?

Traci L. Turner:
This is a new answer because it probably would’ve been a little different had you caught me a few years ago. So what I’m going to say now is I want people to notice the technique, I want people to, I don’t know, because the style that I have, which is these bright colors, loose brush strokes, I’m not super concerned with perfection, with my work or having it look drawn super well. But aside from that, I want people to connect with the fact that this is my style now. I think when I started developing, I want to say, this style, it’s not anything that’s revolutionary, anything, but it feels unique to me at this point.
I want people to see that this isn’t an experiment anymore, this is my statement, this is what I want to do with this medium. And so I don’t want to get boxed into a certain subject matter necessarily, though I think my work is always going to be humanistic in some way. I want to be able to just paint whatever I want to. When people see my work, I want them to really connect with just how I’m using color. I think that’s what I want at this point in my art career. Before, it probably would’ve been more about the emotional side of things because I was very much pulling from very deep personal emotions and experiences before, but that’s just, I don’t know, I guess I’m not interested in that anymore.
Now it’s just totally different. Now it’s more about I want people to recognize that I am an accomplished painter, I know what I’m doing and have just, I don’t know, an admiration for the technique. I think that’s the answer here.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What do you envision this next chapter of your career to look like?

Traci L. Turner:
Great question. I honestly haven’t thought about that too much. I think I’m so focused on just getting back on the horse. I’m just to go with what’s first in my mind. Well, I want to have my own studio. I would love to have an official space where I do business and work and be able to have my own ample space to create. Right now I have a room in the house, and that’s fine, but I think eventually, I want it to be its own space where I can decorate and it’s inviting. And if people want to come see my work and buy it there, or if we want to sit down and talk about a commission together, it’s like, “Here is a welcoming space and this is a business space too.”
I’m in a place where I can separate myself and focus on being creative and recording and all that stuff. Because I feel I’ve been serious, but I think the way I want it to look now is a little more mature. And so that’s where I hope to be in five years, where I’m still doing this, but is in an actual official space.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you and your work and everything online?

Traci L. Turner:
I am first going to direct people to my website because that’s just the hub for everything, plus I have a blog on there, where I go more in-depth about the stuff I’m doing and where I share things. So my website is tracilturner.com. It’s Traci with an I. And outside of that, I’m pretty much on every other social media platform you can think of. I’m on TikTok and Instagram as tracilturner. And I have a YouTube channel, I think it’s just Traci L. Turner Art and Twitter, though I’m not on there as much, but if you want to see my work and just the stuff I chat about on there, it’s just @tracekilla. Anywhere else where I am, I can’t think of right now, but it is on my website. So that’s the space where you could find everything.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well, Traci L. Turner, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I think one thing that I get from listening to your story, and one thing that I hope listeners can gain from this is that making the art that you enjoy at the pace that makes sense to you is totally okay. I know that this world is about rush, rush, rush, get things done. You have to do more, productivity, blah, blah, blah. You can do your work on your own time, on your own terms. Nobody is rushing, well, hopefully nobody is rushing you, but don’t feel like you have to have that pressure to be this artistic factory.
And I think certainly from what you’ve mentioned and talked about from your own life story, you’re showing that you’re living life and making art on your own terms, which is what we should all strive to do as creatives. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Traci L. Turner:
Oh, thank you so much, Maurice. I love what you’re doing. I feel honored.

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Emmanuel Nwogbo

We’re headed to the Great White North this week to meet someone that I learned about while doing a deep dive on Nigerian artists. Emmanuel Nwogbo is a visual artist based out of Montréal, and to me, his work reminds me so much of the creativity and fun that design can create.

We chatted right around his first anniversary of moving to Canada, and we discussed his day job as a graphic designer, and how his passion for the arts inspired him to leave Lagos. We also talked about his 365 James Bond Characters project — a series of designs and compositions paying homage to characters in the 007 Universe. Emmanuel’s quiet confidence is one of his biggest strengths, so don’t be surprised if you see his work in a gallery near you one day!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
My name is Emmanuel Nwogbo. I am from Nigeria. I am a graphic designer, so I work full-time as a graphic designer. I also do freelance graphic design, and I also do some visual arts. At the moment, I do the visual arts on the side.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. So how has 2021 been for you? Did you learn anything new about yourself? How has the year been?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Honestly, its probably one of my best years so far. So I moved to Montréal at the end of 2019, and then 2020 happened, so 2020 was a very strange year. So 2021 was like my first full year in Montréal. Honestly, it went really well. It went really well, I pretty much hit all my goals, so that was a very exciting. It was also my first summer in Montréal, which everyone was … People really hype up the summers here. I can see why. So this was my first real experience of the summer in Montréal. It was a little restricted still because of COVID, but honestly, I think I had a pretty good year.

Maurice Cherry:
What makes the summer so nice in Montréal?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
There’s so much to do. There’s so much going on here, event wise. There’s always something happening. You never run out of stuff to do. Typically, without any COVID or anything like that, there’s a ton of festivals that come in town and all that. It wasn’t as much as it typically would be, but there was still a lot of things to do here. There’s a lot of sports, a lot of physical activity, parties. There’s a lot. Honestly, I was a little bit overwhelmed at some point. It was a lot of things happening. Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
That sounds like Atlanta in the summertime.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Really?

Maurice Cherry:
Or really in the late spring, going into summer, because that’s sort of our festival season, and where there’s usually a festival, a neighborhood festival or something every weekend or something. I say that’s usually the best time to come because it’s not too hot, the pollen is usually not too bad around that time. It’s maybe a two or three week period where it’s like, “Oh, this is perfect.” We have that in the spring, going into the summer, and we have it in the early fall. Because it never really gets super cold here, so early fall, I don’t know, like back to school, September, October, is usually a really nice time.

Maurice Cherry:
No, that’s good to know about Montréal though. Maybe when the world starts to open back up, people can experience some of those summers.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, but you only want to come here in the summer, honestly, because winter is just miserable.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh man.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
There’s no fall. It’s summer, then all of a sudden it is just winter.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh man. So for 2022, do you have any goals or resolutions that you want to share?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So usually I try to set goals and plans. The only thing on my list for next year right now is to get my citizenship, become a Canadian. That’s the only thing on my list right now. I started the process this year, I submitted an application, so now I’m just playing the waiting game, but that’s the number one thing on my list.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Second … I would say this is kind of the second thing on the list, but I’m not really sure how it’s going to go. I decided I was going to try to do some exhibitions in Montréal, because I haven’t done any since I moved here. So, try to break into the art scene a little bit. Honestly, I’m a little bit overwhelmed by it, because it’s a big city, and there’s a lot of art here, there’s a lot of competition. So there’s that little fear there. So I am going to attempt to see if I can do some exhibitions next year. If not next year, then maybe 2023. It’s a little difficult given that I have my full-time job and I have my own personal practice. Yeah, but those are the two main things that I have planned for next year.

Maurice Cherry:
Speaking of the full-time job, you work for MTL Développement. You work there as a graphic designer. Tell me about that entails. What’s a regular day look like for you?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So the company is a real estate development company, so they build condos, they sell condos. So essentially my job there is to make promotional materials for the marketing department, essentially materials that help sell these condos. And so for each condo project, we create an entire brand around that project, and then we then try to create ads, and our design is based on that brand that we created. So the company itself has its own brand and then each of the projects has a brand that comes with it. So my job essentially is to create those brands and to design for those brands, and to make sure that everyone that is doing anything for the brands is adhering to the brand identity.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. So you’re doing this for, let’s say, like condominium complexes or subdivisions?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
It’s mostly condominiums.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. All right. I got you. Sounds like Montréal is probably a pretty booming real estate market then?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, it’s pretty booming, despite the fact that there was a pandemic. It’s still booming.

Maurice Cherry:
How has it been working during the pandemic?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I wasn’t really affected too much. I think there was maybe a one or two month period where my hours were reduced. So we had to go on this program that the government would … I think you work out pay … You say about maybe 20%, and the government would pay the rest, so I had to cut down to like 20 hours for about a month or two, but I pretty much worked all through the pandemic. So, worked from home, worked in the office, worked from home again, and then now we are back in the office since the beginning of the year.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So the job was pretty much not affected, but obviously there was a reduced … The real estate market suffered a little bit, so there was reduced sales. So the marketing was totally … It was a little bit different than what it is right now.

Maurice Cherry:
Also, with the work that you are doing as a designer, you work with another design agency called Queer-IT. Is that right?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Tell me about that.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So that job, that’s actually the first job that I got in Montréal. So I came in October and then I got a job in November of 2019. And essentially, I saw this ad where they were hiring, looking for a graphic designer, because I was just applying for every graphic designer job I could see. So I saw the ad and had an interview with the person that runs the place, and then they just hired me.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But essentially, what the job we is, is you give them your hours and then they send proposals to you based on your hours, or sometimes they just reach out to you and ask you to send the quote for a certain job. And then if the client accepts your quote, then they give you the job. Or sometimes they just tell you, “Well, this client wants to rebrand. Their budget is $2,000. Can you work with that?” That kind of thing. That’s basically how the system works.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But essentially, it’s basically still like every graphic design job, except that I would say the company is maybe targeted more towards queer people. So that’s one thing that I was a little confused about when I got hired, or when I applied for the job. When I applied for the job, I said, “Well, I’m not queer, so are you only hiring queer people?” And they said, “Oh no, you can apply.” So yeah, I applied and I got the job.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. It sounds like a collective model, where you’re not necessarily working full time, but as work comes in, if you have the time to work on it, they pull you into the project, they include you on the proposal. You’re sort of part of the working team for whatever that project might be, if they happen to land it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Exactly, that’s how it goes. And then there’s some projects that I did with them where the client was doing a full business plan, so there was like a strategist there, there was a copywriter, and we work as a team to deliver the project.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. I want to switch gears here a little bit as you’ve been talking about your work, because I’m curious to know more about you growing up. Because you’re really a prolific artist, and I think that’s something that I really want to explore more as we go on in the interview.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
That’s a big one.

Maurice Cherry:
So tell me about where you grew up.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I grew up in Lagos, Nigeria. So Nigeria is the most populous black nation in the world, over 200 million people. And Lagos probably has a [inaudible 00:11:51] 30 million people. Nobody knows the real number, because the census is very funny, very corrupt. But Lagos is huge. I grew up in Lagos.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Lagos, I would say, it’s pretty much … It’s a crazy city. There’s so much going on there, there’s so much crime, so much corruption. But again, even besides all that stuff, there’s a lot of art, there’s a lot of, I would say, heritage that comes with it. Lagos is an old city. It’s probably one of the oldest modern cities in Nigeria. So there’s always something going on.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So growing up, I wasn’t exposed to too much arts in a sense, but I’ve always had the talent to draw. I always knew how to draw, so I was always in the fine art class. And even when I went to high school, which is secondary school in Nigeria, you had to pick certain subjects. A lot of people were not doing fine arts, we were very few doing fine arts. Maybe 20 in the class. When I say 20 … This school was a big … I went to public secondary school, so it was a government public secondary school. It was huge. My graduating class had 506 people in it.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah. So it was a big school. Out of that 506, there was probably maybe 15 or 20 people that were doing fine arts. So that was my main exposure to arts. And honestly, the arts are not really supported in Nigeria. I think it’s a miracle that even my parents allowed me to go do arts at university. A lot of people were not happy about that. Because the general belief is that if you’re not a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, you’re not making money. So there was always that to battle with, but I would say that … Honestly, the truth is a lot of artists are not making money in Nigeria. I also think it’s the way they present themselves. Art is not really respected, but then there’s also people making a lot of money it from it too. So I think it’s all about positioning and how you market yourself.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s so interesting, because I was going to ask about whether or not your parents supported you in this, but it sounds like you really got that encouragement from school to focus on arts and everything. When you decided that you wanted to go to college for the arts and for design, were your parents okay with that?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So they were totally okay with it. I didn’t know anything about design growing up. I was an artist in traditional media, so drawing, painting. So when I wanted to go to school, I wanted to do fine arts. And then I got the admission, and then I got to the school and then I did one year in fine arts. And then I had this friend that was doing graphic design and he would just make cool stuff on Photoshop. So I decided, “You know what? I want to make cool stuff.” So I just switched. That’s how I ended up in graphic design.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But the program that I did was kind of an interdisciplinary program, in the sense that there was no real focus. We did a lot of things like art history or cover the art movements. We also did 3D … I did a full year in of 3D in design. I also did web design, I did regular graphic design, logos branding. We did everything, but there was no real focus. So even when I came out of college, I didn’t exactly know what I was because then it’s like you know how to do a little bit of everything, but you’re not really good at one thing.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But the one thing that lacked in that whole school was research, because there was more focus on the finished product. But then as I’ve come to learn, a lot of design relies heavily on the actual process, not as much as the finished product. So when I came to Canada, to NSCAD, to do the Masters, it was a totally different experience. Because then at NSCAD, they were focused on research. That’s when I learned how to do research.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And so they wanted me to do something … Because the Masters program has a thesis, like a final project. So they wanted me to do something Nigerian based. So I ended up doing this … I decided to tackle a social problem, so I decided to focus on the oil industry in Nigeria. So oil was discovered in Nigeria in 1956, and Nigeria is divided into four parts. There is a North, which is pretty much half of the country, and then there’s the South South, Southeast, and then the Southwest. I’m from the Southeast. So Nigeria has three tribes: Igbo, Yoruba, Hausa. So the Hausas are predominantly in the north, the Yorubas are predominantly in the Southwest, the Igbos are predominantly in the Southeast. And then the South, Southeast covers a lot of minorities.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But at the time, when oil was discovered, oil was only discovered in the South South. So what that meant was that oil exploration, all the illegal practices that companies like Shell and all this other big oil companies, all the illegal practices and everything, all the nonsense that comes with oil exploration, only happen in the South South. But the Nigerian economy is pretty much only reliant on oil. So what that means is that that part of the country produces pretty much most of Nigeria’s revenue and sustains Nigeria’s economy. But then the people are suffering because Shell has so much influence in the Nigerian government. And so what that means is that they’re pretty much allowed to get away with whatever they want.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So the oil industry is regulated, but it’s regulated to a point. Like I remember when I was doing the projects, around 2015, then there was an average of 1,000 oil spills in Nigeria every year. And that’s the reported ones. But in Europe they only had like seven in the last 10 years. So that’s how much oil spillage happened in Nigeria, and that’s because of illegal practices of mostly Shell. So my whole project was focused around how can we create awareness, because usually the only time you can get the Nigerian government to do something about it is when there’s pressure from the international community.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But the Nigerian government does a really good job at hiding this whole problem. There’s a good 30 million people in this part of Nigeria, in this South South region of Nigeria, but even when I was growing up in Lagos, you only heard about this problem when the people in the area got upset. And then they created rebel gangs, and then they started kidnapping white oil workers, and asking for ransom. That’s when you started hearing about it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But on a regular basis, you wouldn’t … Like people would die all the time there, there was huge respiration problems, there was huge pollution issues, nothing was ever covered in the news. Or if it was covered, it wouldn’t be highlighted upon.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So the whole focus was how can I create awareness to this problem? And then that awareness would force the Nigerian government to treat the people of that region well. And one major issue that Nigeria has, and even till now, is that even though Nigeria runs a federal government, the government is more unitary. Because I know, for example in the US, and even in Canada here, each province or state has control of its resources and everything.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, pretty much.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, in Nigeria it’s the opposite. Even though we also have a federal government, all the states … We have 36 states, and each state, everything each state generates or makes goes to the center, and then it gets divided at the center to all 36 states based on some metric they come up with. So what that means is that the region or the country that was responsible for, say, 90% of the economy, by the time everything gets split based on population and other metrics they have, they get 15% back. But they are the ones taking all the damage, and so their whole protest has always been we want hundred percent control of our resources. But I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So initially when the rebels started, it started up as a small operation, and then it became a big time operation. They were kidnapping oil workers, they were killing government officials. 2006 was the peak of the rebels in that area. And they were getting their money from oil bunkering, which is also contributing to the problem. Oil bunkering is when you break a section of the crude oil pipeline, and then you take crude oil from it and then go refine it and then sell it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So they were doing that and they were making money to fund their operations, but that was also contributing to the problems, because that was causing oil spills and all the same environmental damage that the region was facing. And that region is right by the Atlantic ocean and then River Niger, which is the second largest river in Africa, and also runs through that region. So most people there are predominantly fishermen, and the water and the ecosystem is totally messed up. I think it’s going to take like a hundred years of no oil exploration for the environment to return back to its natural state. That’s how bad they’ve wrecked it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So that’s what I spent almost two years doing in the Masters. And it honestly was a very successful project. It taught me lots about Nigeria that I didn’t even know about. And it was an interesting research in the sense that me being Nigerian, and knowing all the nonsense that goes on in Nigeria, and then me now being outside Nigeria and trying to do all this research, and then reading research papers and materials from people that have been to Nigeria and seeing their take on Nigeria was pretty hilarious. There’s some American articles that I read about the same problem in Nigeria, and there are some claims they made and they said, “Well, this doesn’t happen.” Or, “This never happens.” Or the way they tried to exaggerate certain things was … Yeah. It was actually interesting to see that from a different perspective.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, that’s a lot that you just described around Nigeria and corruption in the country, and I definitely want to go back and touch on that, but I want to bring it back a little bit, because you took us all the way from college, to going to grad school, to going to Canada. It sounds like, back when you were mentioning this program, that it didn’t really prepare you for the working world. Was that the impetus to move to Canada? Did you just want to get out from another country? Because it sounds like you moved from Nigeria to Cypress, which is where this university was located. And then what spurred the move, of all places, to go to Canada?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
What spurred the move was I’ve always wanted to come to the west, so it was either Canada or US or maybe the UK. I left school in 2014 February. That’s college. But I was already applying to several schools. So I got to teach university in Arkansas, and good thing I didn’t go there because I don’t know who lives in Arkansas but … Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
You would not have liked it. You would not have liked it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But the reason I ended up Nova Scotia was because the school has a little bit of reputation. I heard about the school and the founder of the school is Anna Leonowens. So I just wanted to go to the school, because the school had a reputation in the art community. I didn’t know anything about Nova Scotia, I didn’t know anything about the school. I just did some quick research. It’s the smallest place I’ve ever lived in. I think it’s like 300,000 people in Halifax. So that was a complete shocker to me. It was a totally different experience. I just wanted to come to Canada, right? I wanted to come to Canada or US, but Canada just seemed to work out better. And my dad has always preferred Canada, because he doesn’t like America because of the guns, and the fact that most people are just a little bit crazy in America.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s fair. That’s a fair assessment. But Halifax also has a pretty big black population too. We’ve had, back on the show … Oh God, this might have been a hundred or so episodes ago, we had Duane Jones back on the show. I think that was episode 203, if I recall, so it was a while ago.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
There’s a huge black population, but you have to go look for them.

Maurice Cherry:
He said the same thing. He said that too. Yeah.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I used to work at a hotel in Halifax, at the front desk, and there are some times where a gal was having her birthday party, and all these black people would come. And every time I’m always confused. I’m like, “I have never seen this many black people before.” You actually have to go look for them. You have to go to specific places to find them.

Maurice Cherry:
How was it adjusting to Canada? I mean, outside from the fact that it’s a totally different country and different weather and everything, how was it adjusting?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
It wasn’t too bad because when I came I was so busy with school that I didn’t really have time to do anything else. The weather was a huge shocker to me. So I came in August and there was a slow transition. And then, all of a sudden, on January first, that was the first time I ever saw snow in my life, there was a snow storm. January first of 2015, I woke up and there was a huge snowstorm, the snow was like four feet high. So yeah, that was an [crosstalk 00:25:38].

Maurice Cherry:
Whoo!

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So yeah, I had to shovel snow. So that was my first experience with snow.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Adjusting wise, in terms of … The thing with NSCAD is at the time I was there, there was about 1,000 students roughly, maybe five black people.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, interesting.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
There was no real advocacy. Again, it’s an art school, there’s not enough black people going to art schools. But I’m used to always being the only black person in most places that I go. Most classes or most things that I’ve done, I’m always the only black person there. That was not a problem for me. That’s something that I was already used to. But I never really had any issues, honestly, because Halifax is a very small and very laid back city. And also because it’s Canada too, there’s not a lot of overtly racist problems. People are very low key about their racism, because Canada … People here are supposed to be nice, so they always hide everything,

Maurice Cherry:
But it’s still there though.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Oh, it’s a hundred percent still there. Like I had a lot of experiences when I worked at the hotel for about three years. There was a lot of incidents that I thought were pretty much very racist. But in general, there was nothing to the face. Plus I’ve also noticed this, I noticed this even from working at the hotel. Because I’m a very tall black guy, a lot of people just don’t mess with me, just in general. People just don’t mess with me even though … That’s just something I noticed. So I never had any issues, overtly.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
The first house that I stayed in … I don’t know if they have this in the US, but here in Canada, when you come to university for the first time they have this arrangement where you stay with a family. Yeah, so when I first came, I was about 20 years old. I came in August and I already arranged to stay with this family, and I only ended up staying there for three months because I don’t think that family has ever hosted a black person before, an African in general. So it was a very strange situation. It was this old woman and her husband, they were maybe in their 60s, 70s. And it was just weird living with them. They just didn’t know how to interact with an African. It was really odd. So I ended up moving out because I was just not comfortable.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And so even that area they lived in, they lived on Gottingen Street in Halifax, which is a predominantly black neighborhood. So typically, because of the way Halifax has been, I say, constructed, that’s a hugely black populated area so there’s all these cops and all this sort of stuff. But at the end of Gottingen, it turns into a super white neighborhood, so that’s where I lived at that point. And so the woman, when I first moved there, she said, “Well, you have to be very careful because you’re going to be a person of interest.” I still don’t what that means till today. I just remember her saying that to me. And I still know what it means.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, it just means … Honestly, it’s just you’re a black guy in a white neighborhood or something like that. So if something were to go down then you’re the first one that they’re going to suspect.

Maurice Cherry:
So where I live now in Atlanta is a pretty black neighborhood. It’s called the West End. But before that I stayed in Buckhead, which is kind of the richer, whiter part of town. I stayed there for a couple of years in college and then afterwards. And I remember I would go to the grocery store and get groceries, and then even on the walk home, which was not that far, because the grocery store was on the same street, maybe about a half a mile, I’d say three out of four times I would make that walk the police would just roll up slowly. You hear the siren and I’m like, “What’s going on?” “Well, we heard about some things going on in this area.” I’m like, “Well I’m walking with groceries, so I don’t know what you think I’m doing.” So it’s like, yeah, you’re a person of interest. They just want to, I don’t know, intimidate you I guess.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
In Halifax, there’s something they call DWB. It’s Driving While Black.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s a lot that everywhere, it seems like.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
There’s a lot of racial profiling, people just getting stopped randomly.

Maurice Cherry:
Right. Driving while black, walking while black, shopping while black. Unfortunately, that is all still a thing that we have to contend with even this far into the future. But I want to talk about this project that you did in 2018. So you did this … I guess you could call it a creative project where you designed or you did these photo manipulations, adding yourself in with James Bond characters. You did 365 of these. Can you tell me a little bit about that project?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, so the project was not about me adding myself. I think maybe I added myself in two out of 365.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, okay.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But basically what the project was … The planning started in 2017. I decided I was going to do a 365 project. This is something that I’ve always wanted to do. Because every year I try to set a goal at the beginning of the year and say, “Okay, this is my new year resolution and this is how I want to accomplish it.”

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I started working at the hotel in 2016, and the only reason I started working at the hotel was because I needed to get my permanent residence, which is kind of like the Green Card. It’s similar to the Green Card in US. And part of the requirement was that I was required to work there for a year, and the hotel was helping with it, so I pretty much got stuck there. But I was fresh out of school, this was a year after I got out of school. But then I’m also thinking, “Well, I’m going to be stuck here for a good year at least, maybe two years. I’m not really practicing design. I need practice.” Because you need to practice or you’re going to forget. So I was thinking, how do I go about this? But I also have the issue where I was always working at the hotel and I had very little time.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So in the summer I did this 26 day creative project where I did something with the alphabet every single day. I did ABCD. Something based on A, something based on B. Just like that. And then I did all 26 days. I didn’t miss a day. So I’m like, “Okay, so this is actually doable.” So I decided, okay, starting first of January of 2018, I’m going to do a 365 project, but I had no idea what I was going to do.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I did a lot of research, came across this lady, she said she didn’t know how to cook, so she went and bought the recipe book and she would make something from the recipe book every single of the year. And then there’s this guy in New York, he would go around New York and paint historic windows. So every day of the year he painted one historic window. A lot of projects like that, that I started following. So I was thinking, what am I going to do? And then I found this guy on Tumblr, when Tumblr was still a thing back then. He was doing a 365 project where he just remade one movie poster. And I was like, that’s actually interesting. I would like to do something that is movie related. And I’m a huge James Bond fan.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I saw this, then I remembered that there was this article that I saw about top 103 James Bond villains. I’m like, okay, so if there are 103 villains, it means that there’s more people. So I started looking up on the James Bond Wiki, I found [inaudible 00:33:17] characters. So I made a list of all the characters, did some research on each one to make sure that I had enough content that I could use. And so I did that, took me almost three months to compile. And then January first, the goal of the project was to make one poster that pays tribute to a different James Bond character every day. Just from the movies, not the books. So that was the goal of the project. And the only objective that I had was that every day just had to look different. That was just it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And at the beginning of the project, I wasn’t focused on the actual design itself. I was more focused on … The main challenge for me was … Because I knew I could do the design already, but can I do this for 365 days straight and not miss a single day? That was the most important thing to me. But I also didn’t want to cheat. I didn’t want to pre-make stuff. I have to make something every day. So for me that’s the challenge that was going on. Till today, some people don’t believe that I actually made one every single day. Some people are like, “So did you make three in advance and just wait and post it every day?” I’m like, “No.”

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Considering how much time it took, because I was averaging about 3.5 hours every day by the end of the year. And some days I had four hours, some days I had one hour, some days I had three hours. Well, basically I had about 3.5 hours every day to … I knew the character already, come up with a concept, and execute that concept. So that totally changed my whole design process, because there’s one problem that I had that that project fixed. The problem was when I get an idea and I think that this idea is a good idea, then I’m going to stick with it. It’s hard for me to leave that idea alone. But this project made me unintentionally grow out of the habit. Because there’s some days where I’m looking at the time, I’m like, “Well, I’ve been stuck on this one idea for three hours now. I have only two hours left. I have to do something else.”

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So then at first I would discard ideas. But then somebody told me, “Well, instead of discarding it, then you can just have a folder where you just put in all the stuff that you haven’t used, and then in the future you can use them again.” Which is what I started doing, I would just put the ideas there. But at first, the first month started off as more of an abstract deal, because I was afraid of copyrights and stuff. But then when I read up on copyrights and all this sort of stuff, I was able to move towards more using the photos. And honestly, when I started, I wasn’t delusional, thinking I was going to go all the way. I was like, “You know what, I’m just going to do this and see how it goes.” And then when I actually did the first 30 days and I didn’t miss a single day, I was so much confidence. So that’s how went that project went.

Maurice Cherry:
I was going to ask, what did you learn about yourself throughout that process?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I am kind of a perfectionist, but then I also learned that I have to be okay. Because usually when you post your work online, you’re usually posting what you think is the best. Like, “Okay, this is really, really good and I’m going to post it.” But then I realized, well, I either have to make really good stuff and post it every day or I have to be fine with posting stuff that are not very good.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So, at first I really struggled with that because I’m like, “If I have to post this, this has to be good on some level. It has to be good on some scale.” And so it started off like that, but then I met a lot of people that were doing projects too, and I talked to a lot of people. And a lot of people told me that you have to be fine with the days that are not good. You have 365 days, so if this day is not so great, you had a bad day. The next day you can knock it out of the park.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And then I also figured out how to take breaks without missing a day. So some days, because I was working morning shifts or evening shifts or night shifts. So some days I would make something at nine o’clock in the morning, and the next day I’d make something at 8:00 PM. So that’s a good, what, 30 hours of rest? So it’s like I missed a day, but I didn’t really miss a day. And I made a lot of sacrifices. There were parties or places I couldn’t go to because I’m like, “Well I haven’t done today’s work.” So everything is in the back burner until I do today’s work. Once I do the work and post it, it’s like a sense of accomplishment, a sense of relief, that came with that.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I have to give it to you for really finding a way to do it every day. I did a similar type of a 365 project. Not a visual project, I did a podcast where I recorded an episode every day for 365 days called The Year of Tea. And I did these short, five minute episodes just reviewing a different tea every day. And I didn’t get to it every day. There were definitely some days that I batched about a week together, especially if I was traveling or something like that. So I have to give it to you for carving out … I mean, one, carving out time to do it each day, but then the fact that you carved out so much time, like you said you were averaging around like three and a half hours a day for these designs. That’s a lot of time.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Honestly, there’s a few days where I spent a good eight hours on this. I’m like, “Well today is Saturday, I’m home, sure.” I would sit in front of my computer for eight hours. Because then, the days that I have so much time, I feel like those days that’s where I put in way too much time and I try too hard. Because I’m like, “Well I have a lot of time today, so I’m just going to spend as much time as possible in this.” But there’s a day that I only have 30 minutes and I managed to do something also.

Maurice Cherry:
And you told me before we had started recording that there’s hundreds of characters to choose from. Because initially I was like, “There’s over 365 James Bond characters?” I was like, there’s James Bond, there’s probably every bond girl, every bond villain, and I feel it sort of tops off right there.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I mean there were some people that have one scene you know? There was a few people that showed up for one scene, so you have to do something for this one person. Maybe they said something funny. But so what I did was, when I was setting up the list, I spread out the characters. Because there’s a lot of characters that I wanted to get to, so I spread them out. So it was those characters that I wanted to get to that kept me going the whole time. I kind of put them strategically. So at the beginning of every month I have one major character, so one big villain or something like that. Day 200, I have one big character I have to work on. I strategically positioned each one.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So the way I started the project … So all James Bond movies, and even the recent ones, there’s this organization called [Spectre 00:40:13]?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So each person at that time, especially from the movies in the ’60s, they had a number. So there’s a number one, number two, number three. So that’s how I started. And then on day seven, I did James Bond, which is Double O Seven. So that’s how I started the first few days. But there were little things like that. And so, I unintentionally populated the James Bond internet space. Like when you just look up random things about James Bond, you see my stuff popping up. So that that’s something that I’m really happy about.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I mean the thing with James Bond movies is that they come out every few years or so, so there’s a lot of time between movies to really fill that space with stuff, because there’s not a lot of active talk. I don’t even know if there’s a James Bond comic book or something. You would think with all the superhero movies and stuff, there’s always some kind of media that fills the gap between movies. It’s a television show, there’s a comic book, there’s something. James Bond, it feels like exists only in fiction and in movies. Of course it’s from the books, but there’s not really that other media around it to fill the gap.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I think a few people not named Ian Fleming have written books recently. But I think it’s because Barbara Broccoli that owns the IP, and MGM, they have a really, really strict hold on the IP, so it’s very difficult for you to be able … Now that Amazon bought MGM, maybe Amazon might want to produce a TV show or something. Who knows? But I also think it’s because the IP is so old and it’s right from the ’60s, so it’s one of those things where there’s so much content already, so maybe they don’t think they’re going to make money. Who knows? I don’t know.

Maurice Cherry:
Could be. Oh God, you mention that … I feel like there was a cartoon series for James Bond. I don’t know if you remember. Well, I don’t know if they even showed it outside the US. It was called James Bond Junior. I’m showing my age by saying this, but it was like in the early ’90s. They had a TV show called James Bond Junior. I think it probably only lasted a season, but it was James Bond’s nephew who was also named James Bond, which I guess kind of makes sense for the show. But yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s on YouTube or something.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I’ll tell you one anecdote about Africans in general. So, if you say … Say I’m 27 right now and say you’re 37, all the things that you experienced as a 37 year old, when you say you were 10, I probably experienced the same thing. Now, because of the internet, everything gets everywhere quickly, but as I’d say, the late ’90s, early 2000s, we were a good 10 years behind everything. The first computer I used was Windows 98. I also used dial up internet, I had a Walkman, I had the CD player, all the stuff, VHS. All the stuff that people my age here didn’t experience.

Maurice Cherry:
Out of all of the characters that you did, was there a favorite one?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
My favorite one was … What was it? Day 124, which is May Day.

Maurice Cherry:
Grace Jones.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, Grace Jones. So I did that on May first, which is May Day. So, that’s my absolute favorite. That’s the one that I’ve sold the most, that’s the one that people love the most.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m going to have to check that one out. I don’t know if I saw that one on your site, but I definitely have to go check that one out.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
You know the famous We Can Do It poster, with the woman flexing her biceps?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, so I did one with Grace Jones, where the background is yellow.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh nice. Nice, nice. So you alluded to this when you mentioned this piece, but you’ve even managed to exhibit designs from this project, you’ve done a number of different exhibitions with it. How have those went?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
They went really well. So at the beginning of 2019, I did the exhibition … Actually, no, in May of 2019, I did an exhibition in a small gallery called Corridor Gallery in Halifax. It’s at Visual Arts, Nova Scotia. So that was the first exhibition that I’ve ever done. So I would consider myself a digital artist, so having to print out my stuff, put it in a frame, hanging it on a wall, totally new to me. But that was a great experience, so that’s the first time that I felt like an artist. That was amazing.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And then I got to exhibit at the Halifax Public Library last year, despite the pandemic. I was there for about two months. The gallery there is a very lovely space. Huge. And they only accept, I think six artists a year, because each person stays for two months. So I applied and they accepted almost immediately. So I was beyond overjoyed. So that was the big exhibition that I had done. It was very good. I made a few sales from that.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But like I said, the exhibitions, those were the things that made me feel like a real artist. So I really like exhibitions, that’s why I want to do some in Montréal, like a bigger city. Because I’ve always considered myself like a Nigerian artist. So the James Bond thing, I got a little popular from that because the James Bond IP was world renowned. Some people have never seen a James Bond movie, but when you say James Bond, everyone pretty much has an idea what you’re talking about. But I kind of want to stray away from that in a sense. I want to do more African themed exhibitions, so that’s what I’m working on right now. I’m trying to see if I can do something for next year.

Maurice Cherry:
So what prompted the move from Halifax to Montréal?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Like I was saying earlier on, Halifax is a very small city. Honestly, I was looking at it and … Because I did that job at the hotel where I was pretty much stuck for three years … I stayed in Halifax for five years. Two years in school, three years at the hotel. And I was at that hotel, stuck. I couldn’t leave because of the whole immigration thing, so I was not happy in general. And my last year at the hotel, there was a lot of racially motivated shit that went on. So every time that I think of Halifax, I associate it with the hotel.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
My plan was always get my permanent residence and move to some other city in Canada. That was always my plan. But I got my permanent residence in 2018 October, and then I decided, okay, in the new year, I’m moving to a new city. That was my resolution for 2019. I’m leaving Halifax in 2019. But the thing is because I made so many friends there, I knew so many people, I knew the city well, I was so comfortable, I just relaxed a little bit. So 2019 came around, and I applied for this artist residency in Banff. Banff is in Alberta. So I applied for the artist residency and made it to like the final three, but I didn’t get it. But that was my plan. I was like, okay. I had assumed that I was getting it for sure. That was how much faith I had in this. I was like, “Okay, once I get this, I’m just going to move to Banff.” The program was a two year program, do it for two years and make connections, and see what happens from there.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I didn’t get the program, so I decided, okay … So that was in May of 2019. I was like, “Okay, what am I going to do now?” I wasn’t sure. So my sister had a wedding coming up in August, so I went to Nigeria for the first time in six years for the wedding. And I decided, you know what? Once I come back from this wedding, I’m moving. But where to? I wasn’t sure. So I wanted to move to Vancouver because my sister was coming to BC for school, but then I started looking up Montréal because I knew somebody that lived here. I started looking up Montréal. So I went on Indeed, checked to see graphic design jobs. I was like, “Oh, there’s a lot of graphic design jobs here.” And I can learn French. So I decided, you know what? I’m moving to Montréal.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I decided, okay, I’m moving. So I went to Nigeria, I came back, I gave them my two weeks notice at the hotel, and then I moved in October first. Luckily for me, I was able to get an apartment right from Halifax. So I got the apartment, but then I started getting cold feet, because then I didn’t have a job, no real concrete plan. So to make sure that I moved, I shipped all my bags.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s one way to make it happen.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So I left just one bag. So after I shipped my bag, I bought my plane ticket. I was like, “Okay, I have to move now.” But then I discovered something. There’s so many people that discouraged me from moving. There was a few people that were like, “You know what, this is a good move. You’re probably going to make big advancements from moving.” But there are so many people that were projecting their fears and telling me, “Well, if you move then it doesn’t work out, what are you going to do?” People were saying all this stuff to me. But then I talked to my parents and they were in support of it, and I just moved.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, so I got to Montréal and I decided, well, I already did the job, worked at restaurants, walk at hotels, I think it’s time for me to get a design job now. So I decided, you know what? I’m only going to get a design job. So that’s how I ended up in Montréal.

Maurice Cherry:
So now you’ve been in Montréal for what? A little over, you said two years now, something like that pretty much?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
About two years, yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Have you gotten a chance to kind of see what the design community has been like outside of work?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Not really, because last year it happened, so that was kind of a write off. And then this year has been super busy trying to balance both jobs and also trying to have a semblance of a practice outside of work. So I haven’t actually had the chance, but recently I’ve been going to art galleries, checking out a few stuff and seeing what people are up to. But as for the design community here, the truth is in Montréal, if you don’t speak French, then you’re very limited in a way. Even though Montréal is super bilingual, most people you meet speak both languages, but if you speak French it’s like a new world opens up to you there. So that’s what I’m trying to do by learning French.

Maurice Cherry:
How’s your French going so far?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Pretty good. All of 2020, I didn’t learn French, even though one of my goals was to learn French. So I moved here, but then I got cold feet, because I got a job even without speaking French. But then I was thinking if I try to learn French what happens if I forget words? What if I can’t learn? What if I can’t do it? Because usually I do things that I know that a hundred percent I’m going to succeed at this, that’s the kind of things I like to do. So I was a little afraid, but then at the beginning of this year, I was like, you know what? This is my New Year resolution. I’m a hundred percent committed to learning French, despite work and everything. So then I got Duolingo and then I got a private tutor. And honestly, the progress that I made this year, it leaves me thinking, why didn’t I even start last year?

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, okay.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, I actually made good progress. Speaking is very difficult because the pronunciations … The pronunciations are especially difficult for me because the sounds don’t sound like Igbo, and a lot of them don’t sound like English either. So there’s some sounds in French that my brain cannot just wrap around. It’s a fun challenge, so I’m not complaining.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I feel like the Nigerian accent is, and this is kind of this way with some African languages, it’s very throat based. The accent is very much deep in the throat, whereas with French, everything is nasally. There’s a lot of nasal stuff to it. So I know when you’re learning French, a good phrase when you get stuck with something and you don’t know, and your tutor probably told you this too, but just say, “[French 00:52:44].” Which is, “How do you say?” Yeah, so you can be speaking and you say-

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Yeah, that’s a good one.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, you can [inaudible 00:52:50], you’re like, “Eh, [French 00:52:51]”]. And you kind of roll your way through it. And most people … I mean, I’ve not been in a lot of immersive situations. When I have been, it’s mostly been France French, not Montréal French or Quebec French or Quebecois or whatever, it hasn’t been that sort of regional-

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
It’s a totally different bag, but the thing is my teacher is from France, and Duolingo I’m also doing is French, so that’s what I’m focused on.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. Yeah, once you really start immersing yourself in it … And I would say now it’s probably a lot easier to do, especially you got a smartphone or stuff like that, because you can set the language to French. And then you learn just from picking up context clues and stuff like that. You can watch movies with the subtitles and get the sense of what they’re saying, things like that. It’s a lot easier now than it used to be.

Maurice Cherry:
When I learned French, I was a kid. I mean, I started in second grade and then studied it all through high school and all through college. So I know enough to speak it and read it, but it’s a different thing to be immersed in it, when it’s the only thing you hear. My French is very situational. If I’m in a situation where I need to know French, like it’s a French restaurant, I’m like, okay, I know all the things to get around. Like where’s the bathroom, I will order this, I need this. I know that stuff. But then if it were something where I’m plopped into Paris, I’m like, oh, okay. That’s the real test is how do you use it from day to day.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But that’s the really amazing part about living in Montréal, because all the signs, everything is in French. It’s kind of a rule they have in Quebec. If you have any sign or anything you see outside is usually in French. That’s the rule they have. So everywhere you go, you’re exposed to French. People will say bonjour to you first, and then if you respond in English, then they speak in English to you. So my favorite game to play now is whenever I go out, I bullshit my way with French until the person realizes that I don’t speak very good French. I want to see how long I can play the game.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a good way to do it, that’s a good way to do it. What are you most excited about at the moment?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Honestly, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s one thing that really, really excites me. Oh one thing that I did this year that I can’t believe I did was I learned how to ride a bike. Yeah, I never knew how to ride a bike because when I was growing up, I didn’t have a bike. So I just never learned how to ride a bike. So when I moved to Canada, it’s one of those things where I’m like, I don’t know if this is something that I can do, so I just never did it. But then I tell people I can’t ride a bike and people can’t believe it, because most people can ride a bike. So I decided, you know what? This summer, this is what I’m doing this summer. This is my summer project.

Maurice Cherry:
So did you buy a bike? Did you use one of those rent a bikes or something like that?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
It was more like a rental one or a friend’s bike or something like that. I’m going to buy a bike, but that’s going to be next summer, because you can’t bike here in the winter. There’s people doing it, but those people, I think they have issues.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
But yeah, so that was the one thing that I did this year. It seems very small, but it’s one thing that just gives me great joy. Because I did a 30 minute lesson, and I could balance myself already by the end of the 30 minutes. And then I did another 30 minute lesson, and the next time after that, I was able to do eight kilometers. And then I was able to do 16, 20. And at the end of the summer I did 35 kilometers, so that was pretty amazing for me. All the while I never fell, until the last time I biked this summer, before it became cold. I was coming down on the bridge, one of these bridges in Montréal here, the Jacques-Cartier Bridge. I was coming down really fast, and they have these barricades that you have to wiggle yourself around. For some reason I got carried away. Next thing I know, I saw myself flying over one of these barricades. Yeah, that’s the first time that I’ve fallen in a really long time. Yeah, it was bad.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you think you would’ve went to if you didn’t become an artist and a designer?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Probably an engineer, because my dad is an engineer. So even though he was very supportive, and even my mom was very supportive too, I feel like if I didn’t go into design, they probably would have steered me in the direction of doing engineering.

Maurice Cherry:
Did you have an interest in it or do you think they would’ve just pushed you towards that because of societal expectations?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I never had an interest in it. Honestly, I’ve never had interest in science in general. I can’t think of one profession in science that I have any interest in, honestly. I’ve never had an interest at all. I think I’ve always been an artist at heart. And so even my uncles were really against this. Like, “How can you make money from art?” I was never really worried about money, because I always tell people it doesn’t matter what you read in university. There’s people on YouTube now making funny faces and making millions. I’m like, they didn’t go to school for that. So I honestly think that what you go to study in university is not relevant to how much money you would make or how successful you’re going to be.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean now the whole thing that I see with some artists that are making money, they’re making it off of NFTs. I was reading this … It was some article I read maybe a couple of weeks ago about this artist. She’s a Canadian artist. I forget where, but she just started learning about NFTs in about a month or so. And then using that, she made, I think 50 something NFTs, and has made like $300,000 or something like that. If you’re able to get that much just off of a month’s worth of learning, you can do anything.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Honestly, I’ve looked into NFTs a little bit, but I haven’t … I have a two week vacation at the end of the year, so I want to use the two weeks to really educate myself and see what I can do. Because so many people have been telling me, “You have to look into NFTs.” So I’m like, okay, maybe this is something I’m going to look into. Who knows? Maybe that’s where I’m going to make it big. Because my goal in art is to make that one piece of art that’s going to pay me for the rest of my life. That’s my goal.

Maurice Cherry:
Hey, if you find a way to make it happen, let us know, share the knowledge so we can get in on it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I want to be that guy that just sticks a banana on the wall and people just pay $200,000 for it.

Maurice Cherry:
Right.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
And then everyone can cry about it [inaudible 00:59:57].

Maurice Cherry:
If there’s somebody that’s out here that’s listened to your story and they want to follow in your footsteps, what advice would you give them?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
I would say, honestly speaking, I’m probably one of the most fortunate persons that I know. I would say that because pretty much most things that I do, I succeed. I don’t know if there’s something special that I’m really doing that is leading me to succeed in most things that I do, but I don’t know, somehow I usually just pull it off. But I’m also someone that if I decide I’m doing something I’m going all in. And if I start something and if I realize that, you know what? Maybe this is not going to work out. I usually back out early. Once I get deep into it, then I’m seeing it all the way.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Like for example, the 365 project. By July, I was getting really, really tired, exhausted. Coming up with a new idea every day is not easy. Plus I have to make these all through artist blocks, like creative blocks. I had to find a way to make stuff. But I was also thinking, if I’ve made it this far, there’s no way I’m stopping now, because then if I stop, I’m going to regret this for a long time. So that’s usually how I approach most things. Once I start, I’m going all the way.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
This is a problem that I realized that a lot of Nigerians have, and I used to have this problem. People are afraid to fail. Nigerians are afraid to fail in general, because the culture does not really encourage failure in a way where I feel sometimes failure is very important for you to get to the next level. Like you hear about these scientists where, oh, this inventor made 800 different versions before the final one worked. That’s not encouraged in Nigerian culture. If you do something, you have to succeed at it. This idea that nine out of 10 new businesses fail, if you start a business in Nigeria and you fail, a lot of people are going to make fun of you, even though it’s perfectly normal for businesses to start and fail.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So it took me a while to get comfortable with the fact that not everything I do is going to go the way I want it. And so since I’ve learned to accept that fact, I think my life has gotten a lot better.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work do you want to be doing?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Honestly, I’m not really a five year planning kind of person. I like to take things as they come, so okay, I plan for the next year. At end of the year, I’m going to sit down and think and see, and write down my goals and see if I have things that I want to accomplish next year. But usually, I take it year by year. So every year I have a big new year resolution that I want to hit, and I have very little ones that I … Because I like checklists, so I like to check, check, check. So I have very little things that I want to do, and I have a big one that I want to do for the year. And so I don’t really have five year plans.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Ideally, at the end of the day, I want to own my own design agency. I think, even before that, I want to become full-time freelance, but I still need to gain the confidence, because right now it’s really nice when you expect two paychecks every month. But then when you become full-time freelance, then you know that you have to do as much as possible, maybe at the beginning, to get money. Because I was looking into Upwork, and I realized that a lot of people in Upwork, they’re very, very talented and they’re probably very experienced. But if you’re starting an Upwork, you have to start like you’re starting all over. Because you have to beef up your reputation and your cred for you to be able to make money from it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
So, I still need to gain a little bit of confidence, but eventually I think that’s what I’m going to do. I’m just going to go full-time freelance, because I think that, like my dad always says to me, “You can’t get rich from counting on other people’s money.”

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you and about your work online?

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
You talked about my website. I have to update the website because I made that website as a portfolio website when I was looking for a job, so I never really went back to go update it, but I think I’m going to go update it. But my website is mister365.ca, so Mister, M-I-S-T-E-R dot C-A. I’m very active on Instagram. My Instagram is nigerianexpert, E-X-P-E-R-T. You can find me on Instagram, that’s usually the best place to reach me. Or Facebook by my name, Emmanuel Nwogbo, N-W-O-G-B-O. I’m very active online.

Maurice Cherry:
All right, sounds good. Well, Emmanuel Nwogbo, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I think from hearing you tell your story and even you talking about moving here from Nigeria, I get this sense that you have this very quiet, maybe not so quiet, confidence about you. I mean, I feel like you’re downplaying it maybe a little bit, but I definitely get this quiet confidence from you when it comes to pursuing the work that you want to do. Because it takes a lot of guts to move from Nigeria to Cypress, to Nova Scotia, now to Canada. You’re still in your 20s, you’re still trying to figure it out, you’re taking on these creative projects. That takes a lot of confidence to be able to do all of that and still push forward and succeed, so I’m going to be excited to see what else you accomplish moving forward with your entire creative career. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Emmanuel Nwogbo:
Oh, thank you very much for having me. I had a good time talking to you.

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