Anjuan Simmons

If you want to know what it takes to have a long career in this industry, then this conversation with Anjuan Simmons is just what you need to hear. As a staff engineering manager at GitHub, Anjuan has over 25 years of combined experience across consulting, startups, and big tech.

We talked about his work at GitHub, and he gave some insight into their AI tool Copilot, as well as the GitHub Sponsors program. Anjuan also spoke with me about the value of representation, and how it led to him attending UT Austin for electrical engineering, getting his MBA, and eventually becoming an engineer with one of the biggest tech companies in the world. He also dropped a ton of great advice on ways to have more of an impact in shaping your professional journey.

Anjuan’s intentional approach and personal story is extremely inspiring, and I hope it will help you recognize that you have the power to chart your own course in life!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:

All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Anjuan Simmons:

I’m Anjuan Simmons. And I am a staff engineering manager at GitHub.

Maurice Cherry:

So how has this year been going for you? Any highlights?

Anjuan Simmons:

Yes, I think one of the biggest highlights of this year is that my oldest son — and I have three children — and my oldest went to college. So we launched our first baby into university, and we literally, a few days ago, dropped him off at the University of Texas at Austin, where he is an incoming freshman. And we moved him into his dorm and we gave him hugs and we tried to not cry. And we got him installed in Jester West in his dorm, and we drove home without him. And it was a very fulfilling experience. It was a little bittersweet, but we’re super proud of him. And that has been a big highlight because a lot of this year was getting ready for that moment.

Maurice Cherry:

Wow. Congratulations.

Anjuan Simmons:

Thank you.

Maurice Cherry:

I love how you say installed, like he was software. (laughs)

Anjuan Simmons:

(laughs) I am a tech person.

Maurice Cherry:

So outside of that, do you have any sort of goals or accomplishments that you want to try to do before the year ends?

Anjuan Simmons:

Yes, I think one of the biggest goals that we had as a family; I mentioned that I have three children. My wife and I, we’ve been married for 21 years, and we do, as you might expect, a lot of family things, right? And so we wanted to have a really reflective and relaxing and connecting summer because, again, my oldest son was going to college. My middle child, a son, is starting his senior year. They just started a few weeks ago. Then my daughter is a sophomore, right? So that kind of gives you an idea of their ages.

And one of the things that we did this summer and we went back and forth on, like, do we want to do something? Do we want something elaborate? Right? Do we want to go to Lagos, Nigeria, or go to Amsterdam or whatever? Then we…no, no. Let’s just kind of tone it back. And so we did just a very simple family vacation where we went to Washington, D.C. for a few days, and then we took this Amtrak Express train from Washington, D.C. to New York City. And we spent time there because none of my kids had been to New York City. And we did all the touristy things. We went to the Statue of Liberty. We went to the Empire State Building. We did all these things. And it was just a nice family time. And so that was a major thing that we did this summer. And that may sound a little bit boring, but it was a delightful little small vacation. My middle son went to a summer program at UT because he’s interested in business like his older brother. And my daughter is on the dance team at high school, so she did a lot of things with her dance troupe. And so this was very much a family summer. So I would say that on a personal level, that was the biggest highlight of this year.

I would say that the other big highlight is that at work I promoted a Black woman and an Indian woman at work. And that was something that is truly gratifying. Not just because of their ethnicity — they were ready to go. They very much, very well deserved the promo. But I’ve promoted a lot of people in my career, Maurice, and just as a person of color, it was really great to be someone who could come alongside them as a manager, help them honestly overcome some of the imposter syndrome that I detected in them and then do the work to make sure that the organization could identify and respect their accomplishments and what they were bringing to the team that, hey, these people are ready for promo. They’re already doing their work in to get that done. And so out of all the many people I promote over my long career, and I’ve been doing this for over 25 years, that was very gratifying.

Maurice Cherry:

Wow. I mean, from the family end, I think a nice relaxing family vacation is definitely a great accomplishment, especially after the past two or three years with the pandemic. Like, even just being able to get out and do things tourist wise is great. So that’s good. And also you got to spend some time with your son before he went off to college. That’s a memory that I’m sure he’ll take with him. So that’s great.

Anjuan Simmons:

Absolutely.

Maurice Cherry:

Yeah. And since you mentioned work, let’s pivot to talking about what you’re doing at GitHub, where you work as a staff engineering manager. Tell me more about that.

Anjuan Simmons:

Sure. So the team that I’m responsible for supporting is called GitHub Sponsors. And GitHub Sponsors is a program that started, I mean, really a few years ago, that is meant to allow open source maintainers to receive financial support. Right. So open source maintainers can receive financial support through GitHub Sponsors. And the reason that GitHub came up with this program is because GitHub one loves open source. But also we know that so many of the programs and the apps and the websites and the applications that run the world run on open source. There are so many dependencies that people have of these open source projects that make these projects that make these applications work.

And often the people who maintain those projects, they do it for free. They do it because they love the code or they wanted to solve a problem. And often they work an eight or nine hours at their day job and then they labor at night working on open source maintaining these projects that really transform the world and we want it. Or GitHub wanted to make the open source ecosystem sustainable so that these people who are really doing free labor can find reward for their work, but also ideally do it full time. And through GitHub Sponsors, I’ve heard stories of open source maintainers who were able to quit their day job and do their work full time, or perhaps they didn’t quit, but they were able to bring on a partner to help make the project better. And so that’s the team that I’m responsible for, the seven engineers on that team, I work very closely with the product manager, and so that is what I do at GitHub.

Maurice Cherry:

Nice. Is that a new program, or is that something GitHub has had for a while?

Anjuan Simmons:

We had it for a while. We’ve had it for about three years. It’s been in beta for most of its time, right, the time that it’s been available. But we recently took a GA in April of this year.

Maurice Cherry:

Nice. Very nice. What does your typical day look like? I’m imagining you’re probably working remotely, or are you going into an office? What does your typical day look like?

Anjuan Simmons:

GitHub is fully remote. It’s been fully remote for a long time, way before the pandemic. And so my day starts with me waking up, walking maybe 20 paces into my office, and then I am at work. And so it’s funny, I tell people that I worked at Help Scout before GitHub, and I’ve had remote work as the way that I work for several years now. And I tell people it would take a lot for me to have to work in an office. And I know one of my colleagues said that they basically put, like, $100,000 figure on working from home, right? That if you had an opportunity that you wanted to take, it would have to be, like, 100K over what you’re making now if it required you to go into an office.

And so, yeah, I wake up, I walk into my office. I put some beans into my coffee machine. I make my coffee. I get my water because I got to stay hydrated. And then I log on to my GitHub-issued laptop. And then the first thing that I do, which is I think not very unusual, is that I check Slack and see what happened while I was sleeping. Where are the things that are going on with the GitHub? What’s happening with my team? I also check email, and one of the things that I think people may not know is that GitHub uses GitHub. We use GitHub for our daily work, and so we do what’s called dogfooding, right? We use the tools that we build every single day. And so one of the things that I do with checking Slack and checking my GitHub Gmail account is going to GitHub and looking at all of the notifications about all the issues that my team is working on. Or I’ll check on the pull requests — we call them PRs — or I’ll go into Siscussions. And so I use GitHub every day, because at GitHub, we use what we build for our daily work.

Maurice Cherry:

Back when I worked at Glitch, it was very much the same way. Like any sort of project that we did, it was adamant that we used Glitch for the project. It was never anything like, “oh, let’s think about some third party whatever.” Anything we did had to sort of work within Glitch. So I’m certainly familiar with that concept of dogfooding. I’m curious though, because of that. And you mentioned before, this is one thing through GitHub Sponsors where you’re supporting other open source projects and things like that. Developers worldwide use GitHub for their work. What kind of problems internally is GitHub focused on solving?

Anjuan Simmons:

Yes, dogfooding lets you use the stuff that you build because you’ll see things, right, that customers are running. You know, I’ve gone in and said, “hey, the button on this form seems a little bit off center” and yeah, I can open up an issue and then send it to the team that owns that page and then they can fix. So, you know, a lot of the reason that we use GitHub at GitHub is to really make GitHub better, right? So that’s one thing, that’s one problem that we’re working on, because while GitHub’s been around for a long time, it’s not a perfect product, we know that, but we’re dedicated to making it a little more perfect every single day, right? One of the other big challenges that we’re working on, or a big problem, is what we call developer experience. The developer experience is what developers go through while they’re building code. And so we want to make the development experience one where you feel that the tools that you use don’t get into your way and that you’re able to do the best work of your day, every day based on the tool set, right? So a lot of that is based on how we design GitHub, and GitHub’s always changing. If you use GitHub, you know about GitHub, like I said, pull requests, you know about issues, you know about the other parts of GitHub. And we’re very much invested in their entire teams dedicated to those functions that I just mentioned. But one of the biggest things about the developer experience is Copilot.

And I’m sure we’re going to talk about this quite a bit, but Copilot is our AI tool that is your artificial intelligence peer programmer. It’s like having the best engineer that you ever heard of working with you to help your code become better. So Copilot is a key part of what we’re doing in AI at GitHub. It’s transformational. I think that we’re doing some amazing work. Again, we’ll probably talk about that some more later. One of the other tools that I think is super cool is called Code Spaces, which is basically your developer environment in the cloud where you can log in. And instead of having to do what I did when I started developing 25 years ago and installing all these tools and installed my IDE and my dependencies installed my database, install all these helper applications.

You just log in to basically browse, experience, it’s all there. You can start coding. And so we want to remove obstacles between the idea and the implementation and Copilot and code spaces and just GitHub itself are really some of the things that we’re working on to make that trip.

Maurice Cherry:

Well, yeah, let’s actually go into talking about AI. I know I mentioned to you before we started recording that it’s been sort of a running theme on this show for the past two years now. Like everyone that we’ve had on in some capacity, I ask them about how is this cutting edge tech, AI, machine learning, generative AI, et cetera. How is that sort of affecting the work that you do or what does it mean for the work that you do? So how do you use this sort of cutting edge tech? At GitHub? You mentioned Copilot, but are there other sorts of programs or initiatives that you all are working on?

Anjuan Simmons:

So, to go back to my team, right, GitHub Sponsors. So GitHub is a Ruby on Rails application, right? So at the end of the day, that is what runs GitHub. GitHub, for the most part runs on Ruby on Rails. And so we do a few things, right? We very much contribute to new versions of Ruby on Rails, right? We also upgrade our code, right? So we have entire teams that are kitted to that. So I would say Ruby on Rails as tools are really big at GitHub. We also use other tool sets like React, right, which is a popular front-end framework for building programs. I mean, there’s a whole host of programs and languages that we use at GitHub. We also obviously host a lot of the code for open source frameworks, right? Like React and Vue and Laravel.

And so GitHub not only uses a lot of cutting edge technology, we are also the home for a lot of the cutting edge technology that are used today. And so we take that responsibility very seriously. So we always want to make sure that we’re available, that we’re secure and so working on those functions, right? So it’s not just having a place or having a repository for your code UT. We also want to make sure that we’re highly available, we’re highly secure, that all those things are by default. And I want to spend a little bit of time putting maybe a pin on that. No tool is useful if you can’t get to it, and no tool is useful if it will expose your sensitive information. And so security and availability are like super core concerns at GitHub. And I want to make sure that it’s clear that we spend a massive amount of tools, a massive amount of people, and a massive amount of just thought space, all those subjects.

And so that’s really something that is really important to make sure that we understand. We also spend a lot of time on privacy because, again, a lot of personal information resides on GitHub. And so we do a lot of work around that too. So it’s more than just code. Code is obviously a core concept, but it’s all those things around code that we spend a lot of time thinking about and solving for.

Maurice Cherry:

I’m so glad you mentioned availability, because like you said, GitHub hosts a lot of code for other projects. And I’ve seen on the web, like, when GitHub goes down, that people freak out like other services because you never really know, you know, as a user, what’s connected behind the scenes. So if there’s a GitHub outage for some reason, then all of a sudden that’s affecting other websites and other tools that you use. It sort of is all like chained together in some way. So I’m glad you mentioned that about availability. I’m just remembering from my time being at Glitch how whenever the tool went down, it was always a very frantic time at the company because it’s like, “oh, no, the tool’s down. We’re hearing about it from people. How do we fix it? How do we get things back up?” And that’s I feel like especially now, because so many things are connected under just a handful of services like GitHub, AWS, et cetera.

When things happen there, it’s a ripple effect throughout the web about other things that get affected. So I’m glad you mentioned availability as being a big thing that you work.

Anjuan Simmons:

You know, GitHub, I mean, again, it’s a great platform. It’s been around for a long time, but it is a tool that runs on servers, right? There are data centers, that where GitHub is hosted. There are cloud providers. I mean, it is like any other system made by humans, and that means that you sometimes run into errors. And so while we work at this, like any other service, things happen. There could be a variety of reasons why something goes down. And one of the cool things about GitHub is that if there is an incident, right, where, hey, things are running slow, the system is not available. Again, we want this to be a very rare occurrence, but hey, it happens.

I can hop into a channel on Slack and just follow along what’s happening. We very much value transparency. And one of the super cool things about GitHub is that those incidents, again, we want them to be rare, are observable to anyone who’s a Hubber, right? We call ourselves Hubbers if you work at GitHub. And so that kind of transparency is a powerful feature of the company and really speaks to how we do want to embrace the open source model. And again, there are limits, to be honest, and there are reasonable limits, but for the most part, everything should be transparent, everything should be visible. And that’s really an open source principle that we hold very dearly.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, you mentioned Copilot, and Copilot is like this tool that is used to sort of, I guess, help you code. Like it helps with suggestions, with code and things like that. Is that something that’s used internally or is that more of just like a customer facing product?

Anjuan Simmons:

Oh, absolutely. It’s an internal tool to give maybe a couple of examples of Copilot. Copilot integrates with popular IDEs like VS Code. And so once you have Copilot installed, you can say “hey Copilot, create a component” or “hey Copilot, add test.” So you can literally with your voice work with Copilot or you can add a comment to your code and describe what you’re doing. And then Copilot will put in. I mean, often, if not the scaffolding for what you’re trying to do, it’ll actually give you a solution, right? And so what Copilot is meant to do is to, like I said before, remove a lot of those friction points in the experience that developers go through. And instead of having to hop on Stack Overflow or Google a solution, all that’s built into the IDE, the development environment that you’re using.

But it’s smarter than Stack Overflow, right? It’s smarter than just doing random Google searches. It understands context and it’s able to understand, based on what you’re typing, what you want to do. So again, the analogy that I tend to use is imagine that you’re sitting next to the smallest developer that you’ve ever known and then they’re pair programming with you, right? You have your hand on your keyboard, you have your hand on the mouse, but they’re saying, “oh, try this.” Or it’s almost like that super smart pet programmer could immediately just paste code snippets into your IDE to help you along. Now, again, it’s not going to replace the human, right? It is very much meant to be something that instead of replacing human developers, it’s meant to be something that works with human developers.

And that’s the power of Copilot. I know that a lot of people are wondering, will AI replace developers? Will AI make software engineering a non viable career option for people? And I think that’s not happening at all. And I mean, that may happen, but it won’t be while I’m alive. Copilot and I think AI in general is really meant to be what can humans and AI do together and not what can AI replace what humans are doing right now?

Maurice Cherry:

Yeah, I mean, the tool is called Copilot, not autopilot. So clearly….

Anjuan Simmons:

Exactly.

Maurice Cherry:

It’s meant to be used sort of in conjunction with what humans are doing. I mean, the AI is not necessarily running itself in terms of prompts and things like that. You still have to have a person that’s sort of checking that. So it sounds like what Copilot kind of helps you do is just evolve your development in terms of, I would imagine productivity, like helping you out with maybe code snippets or things like that. I mean, I’m not a developer. I have done some front-end development. Like back in the day, you don’t remember everything, so you do end up looking stuff up. And that’s not to say that a great developer never has to look those things up, but at least what it sounds like Copilot does is it helps put those resources a bit closer to you to make that happen.

Anjuan Simmons:

Yeah. I mean, the analogy that I use, this used to be a revolutionary thing, but like spell check and grammar check, right? We all use word processors, whether it’s Microsoft Word, Google Docs, where if you mistype a word, it’ll put a little red squiggly line under the word, or if you do something that’s maybe like where the grammar is off, it’ll highlight that. You can click it, it’ll give you a suggestion. Oh, the spelling, try this spelling or try this grammatical construction. And that hasn’t replaced editors. That hasn’t replaced writers, right? People still have jobs as editors, as copywriters, all that stuff, but it just makes everyone’s work a little bit more correct when it comes to spelling or to grammar. So it doesn’t replace the need for people to actually write stuff, but it does harmonize and make everyone’s writing a little bit better. And I think that just like spell check and grammar check have done for writing and we’ve used these for years and they haven’t destroyed entire careers. Copilot as an AI prep programming tool, it’s just that it makes your work a little bit faster.

It removes really a lot of the friction of you having to go over to a web browser and go to Stack Overflow or to Google “how do I do this region” and “how do I do this? What’s the format for this again?” And so by doing that, you really increase the speed of development by removing friction. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things about Copilot.

Maurice Cherry:

Yeah, I mean, it’s just like I’m glad you mentioned that spell check kind of analogy because when ChatGPT really came about and a lot of educators are really concerned about whether or not, oh, is this going to replace students writing and things like that. The language model is trained off of a lot of different data, but just because it’s trained off that data doesn’t mean that you’re getting a perfect output. I’ve used ChatGPT before and yeah, it gives you information. Whether or not that information is wholly correct is up to the human to discern. Now you can take it just like on its face, like, yes, this is exactly what it is because AI told me that’s the case. But you don’t know if that’s actually cognizant code that you’re actually using. If you’re using like Copilot or something like that, you still have to really sort of do that human check to make sure this is something that actually works. Just because the AI gave that to you doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s something that might work for the particular project that you’re on or anything like that.

So I see what you’re saying about that human element is never going to go away because just because the AI can give you the information that you need, you still need to check to make sure it works for your particular situation.

Anjuan Simmons:

Absolutely.

Maurice Cherry:

Now let’s kind know pivot here a little bit. We’ve talked a lot about your work at GitHub, so let’s learn more about you. Of course, you’ve mentioned your family, which we’ll talk about a bit later, but tell me more about you. I know you’re in Houston right now. Is that where you’re from originally?

Anjuan Simmons:

No, I am from a small city called Wichita Falls, Texas; not Wichita, Kansas, which people often confuse the two. And that’s where I grew up. That’s where I went to middle school. That’s where I went to high school. After graduating from UT Austin, I moved to Houston in 1997, and I’ve been in Houston ever since. That’s again, over like 25 years. So I am a Houstonian now. So I’m a Houstonian by tenure, not by birth.

Maurice Cherry:

That’s like me with Atlanta. Like, you mentioned that when we started recording, you’re like, “you’ve been in Atlanta for a long time?” I’m like, “yeah, I’ve been here since ’99.” I came for college. And I’m like, yeah, Atlantan by tenure, certainly not by birth. And I’ve seen how the city has changed so much since I first came here. So I get exactly what you’re saying.

Let’s go back to your time at Austin. You you majored in electrical engineering. Were you first interested in tech once you got to UT Austin? Or did you kind of have this sort of want to work in know prior to that?

Anjuan Simmons:

I’m going to tell you a story about why representation matters. So when I was in junior high, there was a show called Star Trek I’m sure most people have heard about. I find that most people like Star Wars now for these days, like whenever I mentioned science fiction, they typically say, Star Wars, that’s Star Trek. But that’s another podcast.

I’ve been a nerd all my life. I was into anime way before it was cool. I’m talking like 1995 Fist of the North Star, Akira anime. I’m OG Japanimation right here. And so I was into sci-fi. I read Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings way before the movie. So that was me. I played Dungeons & Dragons. I was that Black kid with the weird people in the corner playing Dungeons & Dragons. So that was my vibe circa like, 1985, just to be honest with you.

But Star Trek, you had the initial series of like, Kirk and Spock and all that. But then around my junior high school years, there was Star Trek: The Next Generation, and you had Captain Picard, who was obviously the captain of the Enterprise, but LeVar Burton played Georgdi LaForge. And the first season, he wasn’t in this position. But he became the chief engineer of the Enterprise for basically seasons two through seven. And so he was the key person in charge of all the technology on the Enterprise during this time. And so I’m in junior high then, going to high school while the seasons are going, and this wasn’t the only reason, but seeing LeVar Burton, a Black man, play a Black engineer in charge of this amazing technology was inspirational, right? Representation matters. And that very much was, like, part of the impetus for me seeing myself as an engineer.

And I was always good at Math and science. I was that kid that loved trigonometry, I loved calculus. I loved physics. And so that was what really helped guide my path to UT. And taking electrical engineering with all the circuit analysis and the math, like differential equations and vector calculus, that helped me see that that was possible. And so I became an engineer. And while I never served on the starship, I’ve loved working in technology for my entire career, and that was a big part of my story. LeVar Burton and seeing a Black man running tech in sci-fi.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, you ended up going to UT Austin kind of, and we sort of touched on this a little bit before, like, right around those prime A Different World years. I think A Different World ended in, what, ninety…’92?

Anjuan Simmons:

I think it ended…that sounds about right, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:

And you started at UT Austin in, what, ’93?

Anjuan Simmons:

I started in 1993. You got it right.

Maurice Cherry:

Yeah. Tell me what your time was like there.

Anjuan Simmons:

Yeah, I mean, just to kind of put another finer point on that, I grew up with Dwayne, Whitley Gilbert, the whole gang on A Different World. And again, representation matters. I mean, I was a nerd, but I was also a lover of Black culture, right? I was a blerd — I think we call ourselves blerds now: Black nerds. And yeah, I mean, again, another area of representation was seeing these amazing Black people who were casted on the show about Black kids in college. And that really helped me further solidify that I wanted to be a Black kid in college and have that experience.

And so, yeah, I got to UT in 1993. I actually did a summer program called Preview. This was a program designed to give Black students who, for a variety of reasons, would sometimes struggle with the leap from high school to college. In many ways, they may have been the first people in their families to go to college. And there’s all these things about UT. I mean, I always tell people the year that my mother was born, in 1947, UT did not admit Black students. Right? So she was born into a world where Black students could not go to UT, right? So this is not ancient history. This is, like, within living memory, where Black people could not go to UT. And so Preview was meant to be a six week program. So before classes started freshman year, in that, like, September, we got to UT in July. We lived in dorms, we had events, we learned about college life, and that was an amazing program. And I will always owe a greater gratitude to the people who came up with Preview.

So after Preview, yeah, I started my time going to classes. I had a very hard degree, so I spent a lot of time studying. But UT is a huge campus. We’re talking 50,000 students, but when Black people are like, maybe roughly six or seven percent of 50,000, that’s a lot of Black people. And so I was able to find Black people who I could fellowship with. There’s a lounge in Jester West, which is like the kind of the main dorm on campus called the Malcolm X Lounge, right? Which was called the Malcolm X Lounge back then; I think still called that now. And that was a place where Black people went. We went there to play dominoes, play spades. If you were willing to risk your life, we would play Taboo, which can be a very…I’ve seen some people almost get into a funeral for Taboo, but I very much was able to marry my academic experience and grow as a college student with the very rigorous courses that I took as an engineering student. I was able to marry that with the Black experience. I mean, I went to a Black church that I found in Austin called St. James, and so my active experience at UT was really quite special, quite amazing, because I think we were at a time where that generation of Black students who saw A Different World in high school came together, and it was just really amazing.

Now, I will say that this was also the time when affirmative action was being challenged in Texas, right? There was something called the Hopwood decision, and I was the person who, before that decision was handed down, would protest. I mean, the newspaper of UT is called the Daily Texan, and there are letters that I wrote. You can write letters to the editor. Just anyone can write them if you’re a student. I wrote letters that you could find online to the Daily Texan about affirmative action and about Hopwood and why that decision was really wrong and would cause harm. And I took part in marches and protests about it.

So my college career also involved not only growing as a Black person and enjoying the Black experience, it was my first experience engaging in Black protest and really advocating for Black people as a Black person. So that was all wrapped around my experience at UT.

Maurice Cherry:

Wow. I mean, it sounds like your whole time there was really transformative.

Anjuan Simmons:

Absolutely. Totally.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, after you graduated, you ended up working for Accenture, and you were at Accenture for a long time. You were there for a little over ten years. Tell me about that, because I think for people graduating from college now, working any place for ten years after that almost feels like a fairy tale. What was your time like there? And what made you want to go to Accenture?

Anjuan Simmons:

I should also mention that my wife, my now wife was going to — if she hears this — I met my wife at UT, right? That’s a big part of our story. We did not get married in college because we were young, but that came later. But to answer your question, so when I was in my junior year, my senior year at UT, you’re going into the job search field. And one of the things that I learned about myself at UT is I love technology. I love the ones and zeros, I love code, I love software and all those things are true. But I also really like people. Maurice, I’m not sure we’re talking about my public speaking career; so I’ve spoken on stages all around the world. In fact, I’m going to be in Copenhagen, Denmark next week to give a talk, right? So I very much engage hundreds of people on stage. I am not bothered by that at all. But I’m a classical introvert. I am a classical introvert. Most people don’t believe me because I’m a manager. I live with people all day long, I speak in front of huge crowds, but I’m a very big introvert. So I went to UT as that kind of shy, introverted kid. But being involved in what I just described, the Black experience, that really drew me UT of my shell. And I realized that I really like people.

I felt that one of the biggest things that I like about people is helping people. And so when I was looking at jobs to do, there were like the regular software companies, the people that made circuits like Intel and AMD, and then there were software companies that I was looking at and I got offers from those places. But one of the things I loved about Anderson Consulting — which was the name of Accenture before the name change happened — one thing I liked about the consulting model is that you could dive deep into the technology, but you could also dive into the people as well. Because Anderson Consulting very much was hiring engineers, not just business majors, but engineers to join their technology practice because they felt that you really get beauty when you can marry technology and people.

And so my transformation from this shy, introverted kid when I first went to UT, becoming someone who really likes people very much, informed my desire to go into consulting and to go to Accenture. And then one of the things that I really learned to talk a little bit about my early years there was all around consulting is a great way to learn a lot of things very quickly. I learned in the first two years of Accenture things I probably would have taken me three or four years to learn somewhere else because you’re donating these huge projects, you’re learning how to work with clients, right? People who are paying you to be there to communicate the value of the project, to guide the project. And that was really my first few years of working at Accenture.

I learned how to be a better software developer. I learned how to work on teams, I learned how to be managed by a manager. And that was really very much the early part of my Accenture experience. I was in the Houston office, and there was a very vibrant Black community of Black people who worked at Accenture Anderson at that time. And that also furthered the connections that I made with my fellow Black people in tech. And some of the people I went to UT with went to Accenture as well. And so my experience at Accenture was almost in many ways, like the next version of what I went through in college, right. Deepening my technology bonafides and also deepening my identity as a Black person and being in the Black culture, right? All those things really work together, and I was there for a long time.

I mean, let me pause here and say, if you want to know more, that’s kind of the first, let’s say zero to five years of my time at Accenture.

Maurice Cherry:

What were the other five like?

Anjuan Simmons:

That first five years was learning to be really to be an employee at a large company. I eventually became a manager where I was not being managed; I was managing teams. And so that’s a whole ‘nother level of responsibility. One thing I should mention, and I mentioned that I met my wife at UT, is that I got married around year five. I guess around when I made a manager, I became a manager. That point. My wife and I, who had honestly lost touch a little bit after college, we reconnected, we got married. And so it was learning how to be married, which is a thing, to be honest. I’m still learning how to be married 21 years in, Maurice.

I was learning how to be married, learning how to be a manager, and shepherding people’s careers, learning how to be a technologist. And so that last five year period was all that. But the reason that my time in Accenture lasted that long is that I was learning, and I was learning new things about myself all the time. I was learning new things about technology because the technology field is always changing. I was growing, but I was also traveling a lot. And so my new wife, who we eventually became a wife and my first born child, and then we got to child two. My wife was saying, “you travel too much.” When they’re babies, it’s not like that big of a deal. But when they begin to know who you are and they begin to miss you when you’re gone when Daddy has to go away Monday morning to fly wherever and then come back Friday night, I began to see that, wow, this travel thing is really becoming tough on my very young family. And so I began to think about what to do, right? Should I leave Accenture, go work for maybe a company where I don’t have to travel as much or do I do something else?

And so my wife and I talked about it and we made a family decision that I would leave Accenture and get my MBA. So I went to get my MBA. So that was like a two year period that let me get off the road, it let me also get a credential that would help my career. Those were a lot of the bigger decisions about why I left Accenture at around a kind of ten year mark and earned my business degree.

Maurice Cherry:

So I’m glad that you mentioned that sort of you leading up to getting your MBA, it sounds like each of these experiences just kind of like built upon each other. So it wasn’t oh, I felt like I was maybe edged out at work, so I needed to get more education. Everything is kind of built upon each other. In terms of your career up to this point, I’m curious because you sort of alluded to this a bit beforehand. Was this your plan to kind of structure your career in this way?

Anjuan Simmons:

I wish I could say it was a plan, Maurice, but no, I fell into…I mean, there are these things in this part of my life, right, growing as a technologist, growing as a Black person, and yes, very much going from UT to Accenture to my MBA were growing those things as well. Because a big part, like I said about Accenture, is you marry technology and people. And I would also say when you marry technology and business, that’s powerful, right? So my undergraduate degree in double E [electrical engineering], right, that kind of engineering undergrad was kind of getting the technology part in place and working for a technology practice in a big company. My technology credentials are very strong. I also wanted my business side to get stronger as well. So the MBA was a very nice kind of pair to that.

And so these tracks of technology and business and Blackness, I would say, they all kind of built along very well, but it wasn’t planned. I mean, I was, I think, a very smart person married to a smart person, kind of trying to figure this stuff out. But I have to admit, luck played a factor, right? I was able to stay at Accenture when we had a few rounds of layoffs during my time there. The economy took a nosedive, right? I joined in 1997. A lot of people — if you’re old enough to remember 2000, 2001 — was kind of the dotcom crash. I survived that, kept working. And so luck went my way and I was able to have these themes progress by avoiding a lot of the disruptions that a lot of people go through. I mean, I was thinking through this. Yeah, sure, absolutely. So, yes, I was a smart person, I think, making smart decisions, and I was lucky to be able to, like I said before, be married to a smart person. My wife is brilliant, who was my partner in navigating this part of my life. But I want the people here in this to know one of the biggest things that are so important in your career and in life is luck.

And I think that you can’t plan luck, you can’t schedule luck to appear, but what you can do is do your best to be prepared for when luck appears. And I think that I was very much, if anything, always prepared for luck to enter the chat in my life and then use that luck as the stepping stone to the next opportunity.

Maurice Cherry:

And now, since then, you’ve been pretty much working nonstop. Like looking at your LinkedIn, you’ve mostly worked as a technical program manager, in sort of the pre-GitHub years. What lessons did you learn from those experiences that prepared you for what you do now?

Anjuan Simmons:

Oh, so many experiences and so many lessons. What I would say is that, and I should say I did go back to consulting briefly at Deloitte after my business degree because I graduated in 2008. And the people again, if you want to remember, there was a big recession in 2008 — right? — that lasted through 2009. And so I got a couple of offers when I was studying, when I was applying for jobs, when my business school time was coming to an end. But the best offers, to be honest, came from big consulting companies because I had Accenture on my resume. And so I went back briefly, but soon after that I left the kind of big company model and I’ve worked at startups. So look at my resume. You see these names that weren’t nearly as recognizable as Accenture and Deloitte. You see Assemble. You see Allcenter Software. They’re all technology companies, but they were really startups.

And what I wanted to do and again, this was not entirely planned, but what I wanted to do is experience the startup life because I had friends and colleagues who went to startups, like way before I did, and I wanted to see what could I do in an environment where I didn’t have massive resources, right? When you work for Deloitte and Accenture, you have billions of dollars backing the company. You have a massive number of resources, but when you go to a startup, it’s scrappy, right? Everyone wears a lot of hats. I’m having to lead the technology team, but I’m also having to understand the business. I need to support the product, I need to support HR, I need to support recruiting. And these functions existed at the bigger companies, but they were way smaller at these startup companies.

And so that helped me to understand and really put my business degree to use because I was never going to be able to peer deeply into recruiting at Accenture, but I could at a startup. I could know the person running that function, I could really understand their day to day. I could understand how my technology function really interacted with their non-technology function and see how we can harmonize those things together. And so I would say that the lessons that I learned were all around, really, how do these functions interact with each other. And I also learned how to lead teams better, right? Because at Accenture, and the way as a manager, like, there’s massive resources. When I became a manager at Accenture, I went to something called New Manager School in Chicago, right? So they flew people to Chicago from Houston — really all over the world — to learn how to be a manager, right? I didn’t have that at the startup. It was like, “you better…here’s your log on, good luck.” And so I had to learn how to be a manager at that scale.

And I think that that deepened what I bring to management today, and that is people over process, people over technology. If the people are right, everything else really doesn’t really matter, right? Because if you treat the people right, any technology, any process will do. However, if you don’t treat people right, then no technology or process will save you. And that is a core part of my management style. And it was really birthed in that sort of experience where I had to deeply integrate with this team. Because at Accenture, I’m leading teams, but I’m working on projects that have a beginning and an end. So I have a team for maybe four months and my next team might be six months and my next team might be a month. And then we’re changing technology stacks, we’re changing the business problems that we’re solving, right? It’s all changing. But at these startups, I’m with the same group of people, the same stack, the same product, the same customer base for a very long period of time. And so those lessons were all around how to be really a people manager.

And I think that I’ve gotten feedback from multiple people — people who’ve worked for me, people who are peers, people who I reported to — that my people management skills are very strong and those skills were very much honed and sharpened in the startup world. So that’s a big lesson that I learned during that time. One of the other lessons that I learned is you got to manage up, right? I mean, when I started my career, I was thinking, “well, if the work’s good, then people go and notice, right?” I thought the work speaks for itself. No, work doesn’t have a mouth. It doesn’t speak.

You have to speak for the work. You have to make sure whether that’s in your status report, that’s in how you communicate to your supervisors, and that’s how you really take advantage of opportunities to be in front of leadership. You have to market the work. And so marketing the work as an engineering leader was a huge lesson that we can go into more, maybe later, but it’s very important that technology leaders are proficient in technology, in process, in people management. But you have to market the work, because if you don’t do that, the work is going to be invisible. And invisible work does not get rewarded; invisible work does not get promoted.

Maurice Cherry:

Wow. That, I think, is something that’s super important for people to know, I think, in general. And I mean, one…that’s true, closed mouths don’t get fed, right? But also, just in terms of how much is out there, in terms of social media and user-generated content and things like that, you might hope that the work will speak for you, but it can easily, very easily get drowned out by other things. So I like that you’re saying that, especially for engineering, because I’ve been a creative on marketing teams at very tech heavy software companies, like tech startups and stuff. And yeah, getting the engineers to talk about any of the work they do is like pulling teeth. They don’t want to talk about it. They feel like, “oh, it’s enough that I just did it.” And it’s like, “no, we’re trying to build stories around the work that you’re doing so people know that you did it.”

Otherwise, people — I mean, that’s not to say that people have a negative opinion of tech; I think certainly people’s opinions around technology and the tech industry have kind of changed a lot over the years — but certainly being able to speak about the work that you’ve done and to promote it is something that is super important. That’s for developers, designers, whoever.

Anjuan Simmons:

Exactly. And I really think that goes back to what we talked about with my experience going to UT as an introvert, this shy quiet kid, and learning what you just said. Closed mouths don’t get fed, no matter how good looking you may be as a, you know, the ladies like the Hollywood dude who has game, right? I mean, it’s just little things like that. And so, yes, all those things kind of continue through UT, through Accenture, through business school…you got to market yourself. So many opportunities that I’ve received is because I did interesting things in public all along this timeline that we’ve been walking. Twitter came on, Black Twitter came on, right? And by doing interesting things on Twitter, interesting things on social media, I got speaking opportunities, I’ve gotten job offers through just being interesting in public, right? Marketing yourself.

And I think a lot of engineers — I mean, very much this has been my experience working with a lot of engineers — we very much skew introvert. We very much skew quiet, usually very intelligent, but also very quiet. And you’re exactly right, pulling things out of introverted engineers. And again, I don’t want to stereotype, but it’s an archetype that I’ve seen, and that for whatever makes an engineer engineer, often what comes with it is just this kind of maybe quiet nature. And so I realized that that would hold me back, that in my career, being quiet would not redound to my benefit. And I needed to learn to speak and present not only my work, but the work of my team. And that, honestly, has been a big accelerator to my career in technology.

Maurice Cherry:

What still keeps you interested in tech? I mean, you’ve been doing this now, like you said, for over 25 years. What still drives you?

Anjuan Simmons:

It’s a blessing and a curse. And that is technology is always changing. We didn’t have Copilot, we didn’t have Kubernetes, we didn’t have all these tools. When I started my career over 25 years ago, the tools that I had back then would be considered like rocks and sticks today, for the most part, right? It’s very primitive. I mean, not all of them, right? I mean, a lot of those languages still exist, but there’s so much I don’t know. There’re like so much…just sophistication, I guess, is what I’m looking for, in the tools that we have now.

And so that ever-changing landscape where you have to stay on your toes, the cutting edge, the state-of-the-art is always moving. That can be stressful because you have to keep upgrading yourself. You have to really re-invent yourself at least every two to three years in software development because things change that quickly. And so that can be stressful. It’s so compelling because there’s so many cool things that would be hard to do now using the tools I had when I started my career. I mean, spinning up a development environment with a click; all the tools that we have right now, they’re like higher order languages now that really didn’t exist now. I mean, I learned COBOL and C and all these things early in my career, and those languages are still used today, but there are so many more human-friendly languages like Python and other languages that, I mean, Ruby is a very human-compatible language, right? And so there’s so much power in the accessibility to get into technology now that I’ve seen grow over my time.

And so that evolution and watching it, that keeps me interested. That’s one big thing; it’s just the ever evolving nature of technology. And to be honest, I like people, right? I love helping people find capabilities and potential that they may not have found if I didn’t work with them, right? And I’ve seen in people that I’ve managed over the years, I’ve helped to help debug imposter syndrome. I’ve helped to support, I’ve helped to mentor, I’ve helped to sponsor people and then be able to be that force for what I hope is good is also compelling, right? So those are two things that have kept me intact and they add a bit of a bounce to my stuff every day when I walk into my office.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, I mentioned before how people’s kind of opinion about tech has sort of changed over the years. For developers that are listening,I’m pretty sure they might want to know the answer to this question. But what opportunities do you see out there now for developers? Are there certain skills they need to be learning to stay competitive? I feel like you’re like the sage on top of the mountain. From your perspective, where do you see the opportunities for devs now?

Anjuan Simmons:

The opportunity for devs is like…it has, I don’t think ever been stronger because of a couple of things. One, there are so many engineers that I’ve worked for and work with, right? So as people who were like VPs, or people who reported to me, who did not have the traditional computer science background, engineering background, the same background that I came from, but who were so talented, so brilliant, some of the smartest people who became my right hand as tech leads did not study computer science, right? I’ve had people who were speech pathologists, I’ve had people who worked in retail, worked in bookstores, but they went to a boot camp, they learned how to code, they were great at it, and they became developers. So I think one of the biggest opportunities — and I said it’s the people of color who I think are the primary audience for this podcast and the people who have very much been instrumental in my career — because we often don’t have either the funds or the opportunities to go get computer science degrees from the MITs and the Stanfords of the world. And I’m here to tell you that that’s not really required. You can even be like a self-taught programmer.

I’ve even had people who taught themselves how to code, right? So I would say that the barrier to entry to get in software development has never been lower. There are all kinds of opportunities for people to come into this field and there are people like me who are waiting for you, who are here to welcome you, who are here to support you if you’re willing to come in. And so I would say that these tools are so powerful and the things you need to know to be successful in software development oriented technology in general have never been more available, have never been as powerful. So I would say that’s one thing that you should know. The opportunity is so strong, I hope people feel that they can do it. Because if you’re hearing my voice right now, then you can.

I would say the other thing that is a key part of the opportunity is, yes, there are technical aspects of the trade. Yes, there are things that you’re going to have to learn. There are hard things that you’re going to have to learn. But the number one trait that will keep you in this field, that will help you get in the field and stay, is patience and curiosity. That’s it. It’s not learning object oriented programming or learning highly typed versus not typed code languages or learning the difference between these different things or learning Kubernetes or all these things. But it’s being patient and being curious. If you have those things, if you’re willing to go through…often the thing like this thing isn’t compiling and I don’t know why. Let me figure out let me put in a debugger. Let me figure out how to get it working right. If you’re able to just think, “oh, I’ve always wanted to learn about this,” and then taking time to do that, those attributes would do so much for your career. So if you’re willing to be patient, if you’re willing to lead with curiosity, you can do well here. And I have to say that open source, right? GitHub very much loves open source. I run a program that’s designed, you know, GitHub sponsors for open source. You can learn so much through open source software where you can, with almost no financial outlay, join a project, learn how it works, make contributions. There are so many programs that are basically designed to help people get into open source, where you can upgrade your skills. You can work with teams. You can become a valued contributor to some of the most powerful software on the planet.

So those are the things that I would let people know about this field. The barrier to entry is lower than you think. If you’re willing to be patient, if you’re willing to be curious, if you’re willing to be involved in open source, and I can absolutely help you do that. Please reach out. Please come in. The industry needs you to be honest, and there are many people like me who are here to help.

Maurice Cherry:

Now who have been some of the mentors or peers that have helped you out in your career? I mean, I feel like with everything you’ve mentioned, you’ve probably had a really strong community of support behind you.

Anjuan Simmons:

I’ve been super lucky. I mean…so I was a resident assistant at UT. I was an RA, that person who worked in the dorm, who had maybe the bigger room, who was there to tell you, “hey, turn your music down”, or…I’ve honestly walked in on people who drank too much, helped them stumble to the dorm even though they were underage, right? I was that person. UT, I remember when I applied for the RA job, right? I’m probably 19 years old, right. When I first became an RA, maybe 19, 20.

Maurice Cherry:

Okay.

Anjuan Simmons:

And the person who interviewed me, I think they were the head of housing at UT. I remember her office. If I close my eyes, I can remember sitting in her office, and she said, “you know, everyone who talked to you liked you, but you seem a little bit quiet, right? You seem a little bit reserved.” This person was absolutely right. “We want to give you this opportunity, but you’re going to have to lean into the people part of this because as an RA, you are responsible for residents. Residents are people.” And that was amazing. I mean, that little bit of advice, getting that job helped propel this shy, introverted, nerdy kid into being someone who loves people, right?

And I remember — just kind of fast forwarding a little bit — like, one of the managers I worked for at a project at Accenture was very much, again, similar, started the speech like, “hey, we really like you. You’re doing good work. And if I walk over to the place where you’re working with your team, I can see it. But hey, you need to find ways to let other people know about what you’re doing.” And that goes back to the work that speaks for itself. Like, that manager very much was a mentor to me, and so I’ve had people all along the way give me nudges, give me advice, give me support for things that most people can recognize. If you’re involved in Twitter or in technology, Scott Hanselman has been an amazing mentor of mine, and a friend is a very well known person at Microsoft. Kelsey Hightower, who recently retired from Google, is an amazing person, amazing friend.

They’ve mentored me without knowing it, just by having conversations. I’ve met them at speaking gigs, I’ve met them at different places, and I would say that they have been mentors to me. Neha Batra, who is a VP at GitHub, who’s very well known on the speaker circuit in fact, has been a mentor of mine. She really was one of the people who helped me get into GitHub. I’ve learned so much from her about being a better people manager. I mean, I thought I knew what I was doing when I joined GitHub, but she helped me navigate all the special sauce at GitHub, how to be an even better people manager, better technology leader. So I want to make sure people who you can find on Twitter, you know Scott Hanselman, Kelsey Hightower, Neha goes by nerdneha — I guess we’re calling it X now — on X now, and tons of people who you couldn’t find if you looked for them. But at Accenture, at UT, at Deloitte, at startups…they have been all instrumental in my growth and they all saw the potential in me and they saw where I needed a little bit of a nudge to kind of get to the next level.

They basically helped me receive that nudge. And so I really try to pay it forward. And a big part of what I do in my industry, whether that’s the people who report to me at GitHub or other people within the company, whether it’s being someone who is on the speaker circuit and I meet a lot of people out. When I’m on the road, I look for people who like, oh, that person needs a little bit of a nudge. And that same nudge that people gave to me, I try to give people that nudge and just help them see something that they need to do, give them a map for how to do it, and then supporting them as they find their way to higher success.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, you have three kids you’ve just mentioned at the top of the episode. First one is now in college, second one’s a senior in high school. Third one is a sophomore. Are they sort of interested in tech like you are? Like, do they want to follow in your footsteps?

Anjuan Simmons:

Maurice, I did my best, but you know, they’re into, you know, technology toys, the iPhones, the iPads, the Apple Watches and all. And you know, they play on their Xbox and their PS. But when it comes to a career in technology, like helping to design an iPhone, helping learning Swift to create apps on the iPhone, they all did computer science courses in high school. Like, they learned JavaScript and they learned even just regular Java and all that. But I think that my wife is just more awesome than me. And my wife was an MIS major from the business school at UT for undergrad, and they all want to do business work. So I’m like, “okay. All right.”

Hey. My wife is simply more compelling. And so my oldest son at UT is in the business school. My son, who’s a senior who you mentioned, is also looking for doing business. My daughter is kind of…she’s my only hope. She’s my last hope for maybe getting an engineer out of the family, but I think she’ll probably go to business as well. But, yes, I would say that I failed as a father to launch technologists, but I think that from my household will emerge some amazing business people. I’ll take solace in that.

Maurice Cherry:

Well, you never know. I mean, I think if there’s one thing that people will kind of get from this interview, is that you can kind of take control and take charge of your career at any given point in time. So I think even just with this show in general, there’s no set path to get to where you want to go in terms of your end destination, based on what your values are, things like that. So there could still be time. Don’t count them out yet.

Anjuan Simmons:

That’s true. I should be more hopeful. So, yeah, you’re right. I’ll never give up on my kids and their future. So you’re exactly right. And you’re exactly right with your career. I mean, one thread that I’ve learned, that I wish I learned earlier, is that your career is not something that happens to you, right? You have agency, you have volition, and then you can take that next step, right? And so, yeah, there may be people who support you. Hopefully the people give you the safe nudges that I receive, but you also can study the game and learn how to play it better.

And that’s something I’ve been lucky to do.

Maurice Cherry:

Now, where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work do you want to be doing?

Anjuan Simmons:

That is something I’ve been thinking about a lot. So if you think about just the career ladder, right? So I’ve gone from individual contributor — or IC, as we say — to manager or eng manager, to senior eng manager, to staff eng manager. And so if you look at most ladders, the next level would be like director, VP, maybe going up to maybe above that. So I think that that’s probably where I want to go. I mean, like I said earlier, what’s kept me in this industry is the way that it’s always changing. There’s always new toys, always new tools, and then there’s also people, right? People to help and people that hopefully that I can impact in a positive way. And so I would say that’s probably from a career perspective, what I’m going to do with my professional career, which is go up that level. I’ve been honestly a little bit hesitant because I do think that the further I get away from the technology, from the people doing their work, the more I may be less motivated.

Because again, I love code, I love software, I love helping people build software. And as you go up toward VP, you’re really far away. I mean, the technology is like a speck on the horizon, and then you’re seeing politics and business and all that stuff. And while I can do that, I’ve been reluctant to do that. But that’s where you have impact, right? That’s where you can impact not just a team of maybe ten engineers, that’s where you can impact a department of hundreds. I think from a professional standpoint, that’s where I see myself going outside of work. I mean, I love public speaking. I have a lot of cool gigs booked for the rest of this year.

I think doing more of that, that’s really what I love doing. And I still love writing, a fair amount of technical writing that gets published. But if I could wave a magic wand and then kind of change the percentages, I would make work maybe a smaller percent of what I spend doing, and speaking or writing a bigger percentage of what I spend doing.

Maurice Cherry:

Well, just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you, your speaking, your writing and everything…where can they find that online?

Anjuan Simmons:

One of the things that is really lucky about having a fairly unique first name is that you can find me at Anjuan at a lot of places, right? That’s Anjuan. Anjuansimmons.com is my website. That’s kind of my home base. But you can find me on Twitter, or — sorry, X — or Threads or wherever you go. If you search for A-N-J-U-A-N you will probably find me and please reach out. You can follow me. You can connect with me again. I’ve grown into a person who loves people.

I’m always happy to do what I can to help people become better versions of themselves because my entire career has been becoming a better version of the person that I am. And so please reach out. I would love to connect and continue this conversation on other platforms.

Maurice Cherry:

Sounds good. Anjuan Simmons, thank you so much for coming on the show. I mean, one, thank you for just sharing your story about how you’ve gotten to where you are, but also from talking about the work that you’re doing at GitHub. And like we sort of mentioned throughout this interview, the thing about your career is that you’ve really kind of owned it, you know what I’m saying? At any place where you’ve been, whether it’s been just getting out of college or getting your MBA and then going to what the next step is, it sounds like you’ve really owned your career, like, every step of the way. And I hope that that’s something that when people listen back to this, they’ll get that they can do that for themselves as well.

Anjuan Simmons:

Absolutely. Like I said, there was a fair amount of luck, but there was also a lot of intentionality. If you listen to this, you can be more intentional in your career. I hope that what you’ve gotten from this interview that that’s very much possible. Let me give you your flowers. Maurice, I want to tell you before I leave, Revision Path matters. It’s important. You’ve done an amazing job.

Please keep doing it. You touch lives in ways that you will probably never, ever know. So I love what you’re doing here. Please keep doing it. And I love being here. Thank you so much for giving me space on this podcast.

Maurice Cherry:

Oh, well, thank you. First of all, thank you so much for that, and thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

Anjuan Simmons:

Awesome.

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Brandon Campbell-Kearns

There are so many options these days when it comes to learning how to code, but which is the best one for you? We all learn in different ways, and software engineer and educator Brandon Campbell-Kearns is just the person to help unlock what you need to succeed!

We spent the first part of our conversation on his business Quarterly Learnings, including his current web development course through Atlanta nonprofit City of Refuge. Brandon also talked to me about how first got into tech, and about how his stints teaching in Guatemala and Korea, as well as here in Atlanta at General Assembly and The Home Depot, helped guide him towards his current work. He even shared some great advice about breaking away from tying a job to your self-worth — something I think a lot of people can learn from during this current time.

For Brandon, understanding what lights him up has given him the drive to succeed. (Well, that and some lion’s mane mushrooms.) I hope this interview helps get you on the right track to finding your spark!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
My name is Brandon Campbell-Kearns, and I really like to teach. And mostly software engineering. That’s what I’ve been doing lately, so that’s what I am. I’m an educator and a software engineer, a hybrid.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, nice. How has this year been going for you So far?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
So far so good. Coming up on halfway, feeling good about it, learning a lot about myself through this year, but for sure, really, really enjoying 2023.

Maurice Cherry:
How would you say, when you look back at this time last year, how would you say that you’ve maybe grown and improved? Have you noticed anything?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, I think so. A lot of change has taken place. I think the biggest thing is self-reliance. And that does not mean a hyper independence where I don’t need anyone else, but more so jettisoning, previous dependencies that were helpful but not necessarily required in order for me to thrive and be my best self.

Maurice Cherry:
Jettisoning dependency, it sounds very much like what a software engineer would say.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Right, I totally outed myself, didn’t I? Yeah. It’s either like, yeah, I’m a software engineer or a pilot, right?

Maurice Cherry:
If you don’t mind me diving into that, what are some of those things you’ve kind of like jettisoned?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Totally. So I’m going to zoom out just a little bit to answer that. So growing up, I was a pleasure to have in class, as they say, you know what I mean? So a lot of my self-worth, I’ve outsourced into that progress report comment like, “Oh, how is he doing over this past nine weeks?” This is not unique to me. I think a lot of us had that experience, and then it’s like, okay, so my whole identity is being a good student at that point.

When I got into the workforce, it just became a paid version of that. So it’s like, oh, a pleasure to have in class turned into 2.5% increase or 3% increase and some shares or whatever it is. Now, am I upset about the incentives for working? Not at all. It’s just that for me, I knew that I was following that same trajectory that had already been blazed in grade school, and I needed to divorce myself from that cycle unless the entirety of my self-worth be wrapped up in my salary, and I did not want that feeling, and I did not like that feeling.

So this is something that I don’t tend to make very rash choices. I think about things for a long time, and I observe them for a long time to make sure that the patterns I’m observing are in fact correlated and not causations or the other way around causations and not correlations. So saying all that to say, in the past year, I left a job that was on paper, a great job, and even in practice a great job, but it was thus far, the zenith, the peak of that pattern that I was talking about of tying my self-worth to the prestige and the title and the salary.

Obviously, well, it’s not obvious, but to me it’s obvious. I was enjoying the work, but I wasn’t enjoying how I was viewing myself through the work. So I left the job in order to create my own thing. I got a little tired, Maurice, of getting paid the same no matter what I did. And I understand people hearing this, might think that that is an ungrateful thing to say or a privileged thing to say, but for me, I know what I’m working with and it’s like already having that foundation of maybe a bit of entitlement that I wanted to work through. So I’m actually using my career as a means of working through that. Because I mean, there’s nothing else. Not like there’s some other part of my life. My career is a part of my life, so there’s no way it doesn’t affect those cycles, if that makes sense.

Maurice Cherry:
When did you decide to leave your job? Was this last year?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yes. It was May 13th of 2022.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, wow.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
So to circle back, those are the dependencies I was referencing, the sort of emotional dependencies that I’m jettisoning. And now it’s depending on me, my output. So currently, if I don’t have a contract after June, I won’t have money after June, and that is definitely much harder. But it’s also, it’s exciting to me.

Maurice Cherry:
It gives you something to strive for.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Correct. Instead of waiting on a cycle that is outside of me.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, let’s talk about what you’re doing now, which you know said you started your own company. It’s called Quarterly Learnings. Talk to me about that.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, Quarterly Learnings. Yeah, so it’s for sure a play on the… Very much related now that I think about it to what I was just talking about. So the idea of a quarterly earnings report or call that companies have, there’s one angle there, but it’s meant to be an appeal to that way of thinking. But we should now think about what we’re learning every quarter, what new capabilities do we have as an organization or also as an individual. And I think we should put just as much energy, I could even argue for more into learning in our organization as we do into the finances and the financial reports, et cetera.

So I created Quarterly Learnings because I’ve spent a lot of time with various organizations building out either internal learning organizations or actually just hosting and teaching workshops there. So I figured that I would create a business to wrap the freelance work that I do there around. So that’s what Quarterly Learnings is all about. For me it is a personal thing because it’s related to that, those cycles I talked to you about before, but also I know it can have an impact because I’ve seen it happen with the dozens of workshops that I’ve run at across organizations in industry.

Maurice Cherry:
How has business been going?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Just getting started. Really good for just getting started. Currently teaching a class at a nonprofit here in Atlanta, which is really fun. So so far, business really just kind of looks exactly like the work I was doing before, meaning still teaching, but doing it in a company, with a big difference being now I have to send invoices and everything I do is representative of the business. There’s no one I can point to for like, “Hey, this is your fault.” Or, “I would like to have this.” It’s really, everything’s on me. The next client that I get will be because of either my past work or something I did to get them. So of course that’s a challenge.

But so far, so far it’s been good. I’ve also, with the name Quarterly Learnings and also just by choice, I’ve been able to also have a bit of a consulting arm. For example, there’s one client I have who wants to learn a little bit more about how to modernize an organization he’s working with. So I’m putting that under the same umbrella. So it’s not just teaching on a workshop level. It’s also a consulting component for me.

Maurice Cherry:
So you mentioned this nonprofit and this other business. What are the best kinds of businesses or clients for you to work with?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I really like the idea of working with this very small organization who needs to have someone in their organization be multi-dimensional. For example, we could take the example of Home Depot. I know we haven’t quite gotten to talking about OrangeMethod yet, but that pattern is something I’d want to scale. For example, someone works at let’s say a retail store or a call center, and that person or that department may be about to undergo a reorganization or a restructure in layman’s terms, people are going to lose their jobs, but if they re-skill or have a new skill, then the value that they can provide to the organization evolves with their skills. So I like being able to stand in that gap and imbue those people who might otherwise not be useful to the company with a new set of skills that they can use to add value to their lives and also the company.

So for me, an ideal client is someone who has that problem, whether that is a large organization or just for example, a local law firm that has a few, let’s say, paralegals that they don’t need, but they do need some technology infrastructure to be built out. So let’s teach those paralegals then how to do that. Now they have both skills and the job that they may not have had since the organization needed to reallocate its capital.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m looking around on your website now. I see you’re on YouTube, you’re on TikTok. You have a podcast, and I want to get into the social media part in a bit, but tell me about the podcast. How does that sort of work along with what you’re doing?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, totally. So the Quarterly Learnings Podcast. A lot of people ask me, what do you like to do outside of work? But I really honestly am obsessed with the idea of learning a new skill, mostly because I think, or I know that learning how to code changed my life, and I did not have experience with software prior to learning. So I really like preaching that gospel and talking about that so that others can maybe have a similar experience.

So so far, I’ve interviewed people either about learning or organizations that they’ve been in who have learning as a primary focus. What I’m doing now is starting to interview my students, a couple of my students in the class so that I can hear about their actual day-to-day learning experience with me as an instructor. That’s not necessarily the focus, but it is interesting to me to see.

I think that especially with technology, it’s not the same instructor learner relationship that we’re used to in, I would say, traditional education. So I really like being able to have conversations with my students that may not focus specifically on the technical components, but more on the emotional work that’s required to learn a new skill like software engineering. So yeah, that’s where I see the podcast going. We’re still in early days, but it’s so much fun. Shout out to you for doing this for so long. It’s so much work. Especially, I’m pretty sure starting out you were kind of doing everything and that’s where I’m at now. Soon I’ll have a team like you.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, starting out, I mean, I think it’s a lot different to start a podcast now than it was 10 years ago. I’ll just put it that way.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
That’s so true.

Maurice Cherry:
I think you’re on anchor, right? You’re using Anchor?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, Anchor didn’t exist back then. If you started a podcast, you put it out and there were a handful of audio hosts. I think I’ve been using the same audio host for 10 years now, Simplecast, but there were a handful of audio hosts. But the learning curve now. To start your own show is really easy. I think as long as you have a Spotify account, you can start a podcast. It’s not a big step to start making your own content that way.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
That’s true. Yeah, exactly. And for me, the biggest step was, to your point, not at all the technical stuff with, any of the hosting or logistics. It was completely behavioral. Like, yep. Just do it. You know the ideas. You’ve even written out the scripts. You have some guests, all right, let’s send some emails.

Maurice Cherry:
Send emails, and then get the timing together. And it takes a while at least, I think when I did it took a while to finally get into a good rhythm.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Because the industry matured as my show went on. And so there were always new microphones, new scheduling tools, new this, new that, and you just try to find what works for your schedule because it’s so easy to just try to hop on whatever the newest thing is. I’ve used roughly the same setup for the past, I want to say five years. I haven’t really changed it a whole lot. Because I finally found something that was like, this is bulletproof whether I’m at home, on the road, whatever, this is what I’m going to use. Because there’s newer things that have come out, but I’m just like, no, but this works, so I’m going to use what works.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Are you talking from an equipment standpoint or from hosting or just all of it?

Maurice Cherry:
All of it. All of it.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I love that. You know why I love that? Because it’s so easy to get caught up in the hype cycle of having the latest, and I think I observe this a lot with my students. Like, “I have to learn the latest framework.” Or even in life, like, “Oh, I need the latest car or a pair of shoes or whatever.” And it’s like, maybe, maybe.

But it’s more important to me, I like to think about this idea of levels versus resonance, so kind of like a scaler scale up and down compared to one that’s rooted in a frequency that aligns with you. Because one suggests you have to get to the next level, and, maybe, but it’s usually those levels are externally defined, I found for most people. But if you’re thinking about resonance, then it’s like wherever you are, whatever the actual value is, you can resonate at that place as long as you accept what’s happening. So it’s like, okay, this equipment is working for me. What would be the point to change it? Unless I was trying to keep up with something outside of me, but you’re not, you’re running your own race.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. That’s one thing, and we’ll get to talking more about you and your work, but yeah, that’s one thing where especially doing a podcast, because there are so many podcasts out there now, you try to do what you think other people want. You try to model your show and you try to maybe do a certain release schedule or do a certain social media push or something to try to attract the audience that you think you want to have. Instead, you have to focus on the audience that you already have and making those your rabid fans because those are going to be the ones that will talk about your show on your behalf when you’re not there.

In my early days, I know I spent a lot of time trying to do, and that’s not to say this is a bad thing to do, I think it is still a good thing to do for beginning podcasters, but I remember reaching out to a lot of podcasters in the beginning, particularly other design podcasters and getting nothing, no response or getting a negative response. Because also I’m Black doing this and there’s not many, I don’t think I was the only Black person, but I certainly was one of few. So I was not getting a lot of good feedback from trying to reach out to other people to collaborate or maybe exchange guests or stuff like that.

It just wasn’t happening because of the one, I think because of the purpose of the show, and two, it was just a different time back then. I don’t think people realize back in 2015 how vehemently racist it was in the tech industry. Especially with trying to do something along with tech media. It was just people are like, “Why are you talking? Why are you even saying anything?” And I guess you would say now it’s a different story, but I don’t know, culture changes and society changes in such interesting ways. I feel like in a way there’s a bit of regression over the past year as it relates to some DEI. I’m using that in air quotes, but that sort of stuff. It’s been interesting. But yeah, it’s easy to try to model what you think is going to be the thing that will make you big as opposed to just focusing on getting better at exactly what it is that you’re already doing.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Right. Dialing in. Dialing in on your own deal. Yeah. That’s good. I like that a lot.

Maurice Cherry:
How has social media helped with your business? I know you’re, like you said, doing the podcast, but you’re also on YouTube, you’re streaming on Twitch. You’re on TikTok. How does social media help out with your business?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Right now, to be upfront, I haven’t gotten any direct leads from social media, but that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t helped with the business because in this case, as of right now, I am the business. So any sort of either validation or feedback or engagement I get with anything I put out online is helpful to me because I use it as input.

So for example, on my Twitch stream, I’ve gotten feedback about very tiny things like, “Hey, this audio sounds weird,” or “The way this is laid out makes it hard to see.” And even one of my students last week told me about how I had my OBS scene laid out and how it would be better if I had a smaller headshot of myself so they could see more of the code and they would also like to see what is happening there. So those sort of things are helpful because that really is the work. It’s presenting information. So any feedback around that is really helpful.

So those are auxiliary pieces of feedback that lend themselves to the point when someone will see a piece of content I’ve put out and say, “Hey, oh, okay, yeah, we could use that. We’d like to work with you to have a workshop on X, Y, Z.” Let’s say React for example, or how to do Flexbox in our layouts.

By the way, I’m not at all threatened by the prospect of them being able to just ask an AI assistant or chatbot or anything like that about how to do that, because that’s very possible these days and I think it’s a great thing. The thing that I provide is context within the given work stream. In other words, I can create a custom either curriculum or build out a prototype with a team that sure, an AI could do, but it requires a lot more custom work and inputs to the chatbots to make this work. It’s really difficult to replicate the in-class instruction experience.

Maurice Cherry:
And I’m curious about that because we’ve seen AI really, I think, enter the mainstream over these past nine months. And one application that I’ve seen a lot of people using it for is for coding. You can tell ChatGPT to write you a function or write a program, and the code that it spits out is decent, I guess. I’m not a coder, but from what I’ve seen, the code looks decent. Have you found that to be an impediment to teaching, or does that help out with what you’re doing?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
It really depends on the student. So I saw someone in my class using ChatGPT, and I love it except for the fact that they were using it to kind of check the box to paste like, “Oh, I asked it how to do this and it did it. I’ll paste it in and submit my homework.” That is not the best way for a human to use ChatGPT to learn something. If you just needed that capability, that’s exactly what you should do. Okay, it does what I want to do, but this person, they’re in the classroom to gain the capability themselves. So in that instance, still ChatGPT is not a threat to me, it’s a tool that I can use to help this person best navigate the information. So you still have to know where to put the things.

So for example, if we were carpenters, it’s true that here’s all this wood, here’s some nails, here’s some hammers, and here’s a saw. Let’s say those are the raw materials. That’s everything you need to build, for example, an Adirondack chair. I don’t know why I’m thinking of those, but if you don’t know either A, what that is, or B, anything about let’s say perspective or what the actual client wants and how to turn a set of requirements into an output, then having all that information or that raw material is not going to be as helpful to you. And then of course I have other students who use it well. Like, “Hey, introduce me to this new concept, this new framework that I understand the,” let’s say, CSS, for example, “I understand CSS, but I don’t quite know how to use Tailwind as an example.” ChatGPT can help you get there to remove some of the, let’s say, boilerplate and get you right to being able to interpret what its output is.

Maurice Cherry:
So it’s like a good partner almost, but not a replacement.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Exactly. It’s your partner. It’s your, truly an assistant is how I’m seeing it. Now, is it true that there are some who might have overvalued the commodity of writing particular pieces of software? Yeah. So to me, software is a very much a humanistic in person to person game, and I understand that that might seem counterintuitive because it happens on the computer, but usually we build software with other people and for other people. So if there’s not a human input, there’s not going to be a very humanistic output.

Maurice Cherry:
Gotcha. Now you’re teaching both online and offline. I saw that you started back teaching in person in February this year. Tell me more about that. You said it’s with an Atlanta nonprofit?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, so it’s with this nonprofit in Bankhead called City of Refuge. And what I’m doing now is in the middle, we’re about halfway through a 16-week cohort folks who don’t have any software experience at all, and they are, through a Department of Labor grant, able to attend this course at no out-of-pocket cost to them for 16 weeks every day, Monday through Friday, nine to four, and we’ll build four projects. The traditional bootcamp model, we’ll build a few projects, they’ll have the skills. As you may know, there’s no tests or anything to take for software engineering. So I’m viewing it as, of course there’s the skills component, but you also have to know how to market yourself in order to be successful.

It’s a good course, a good group of people. I’ve got about 18, 19 students right now, which is sort of a big class, but I’ve got two TAs who are fantastic, so they’re really helpful as well, and it’s just really fun to be back in my zone. I’ve taught online before, and it’s good because it’s easy to put people into breakout rooms. I have a little mini keyboard here that I can play in the meantime where we’re having transitions or if I want some sound effects. That’s really fun. Having said that, it does require me to be in this room or some room for an extended period of time, eight hours. That’s also true in person, but at least I can walk around the room, see what folks are doing, interact with folks, smell breath, that kind of thing.

Maurice Cherry:
Not smell breath.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
It’s an important part of the experience.

Maurice Cherry:
What do your students teach you?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I think they don’t believe me when I tell them that I’m consistently learning. Even though I’ve been doing this for a little bit of time, coming up on eight years, I learn every single lesson, whether it’s a tiny nuance in the code or whether it’s some perspective about the code that they have that I just don’t, always learn it from them.

One of the biggest things I think is every single person has a different proclivity to dealing with discomfort. Some people have a hunger for it. Some people have an immense aversion to it. Some people are neutral. They’re like, no, it’s uncomfortable, but they don’t want to do anything about the discomfort. It’s fascinating for every single person that, let’s say, coefficient or that value is different. So for me, the fun part is seeing the different ways to navigate that, because regardless of the person, there’s for sure a moment where you have to face the feeling of, I don’t know what is going on here. This is such a new thing to me that I don’t know what it is. So dealing with that is fascinating to observe.

So I get to see different perspectives on how to deal with, in some senses, it’s conflict. In some senses, it’s like, I don’t want to use the word inadequacy because it has a risk of sounding like they’re inadequate, but the feeling of, I don’t know this and I want to, could be handled in infinite number of ways. That’s the thing I learned. It’s the different approaches to that and where I fall on that spectrum within things.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s kind of switch gears here a little bit and kind of learn more about you. I feel like we’re of course learning more just through you talking about how you teach, but I’m curious to get your origin story. Are you originally from Atlanta?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
No, I am from North Carolina. I was born in Fayetteville, North Carolina, near what some people might recognize, Fayetteville for Fort Bragg, and then I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina when I was five, and then spent my whole childhood in North Carolina.

Maurice Cherry:
Were you interested in tech as a kid? Was that something your parents have tried to get you into?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I had an interest for sure. So my grandma used to take me to computer expos as a kid. She was also my first AIM buddy. It’s really wild. She’s way ahead of the curve. So that’s what really got me interested in the idea of gadgets as a toy. Just learning about really just the interfaces. Wow, you can do this from nothing. It was really a whole new way to be interactive. Because up until then, it was just the TV and the radio and maybe let’s say an Etch A Sketch or a Lite-Brite for interfaces that you could modify and having something different happen.

So the computer was nuts to me because it’s like you get online, you click on something and then there’s some other information, and then when Limewire was popping, it’s like, oh, I can get music. So that was always really an interesting thing to me, but I was never a practitioner. I was always kind of a power user. When I tell people that I didn’t have any tech experience before I learned how to code, it’s true. But I was very, very familiar with the interface, like the computer itself. Itself was not foreign to me.

Maurice Cherry:
Now you eventually went to college at UNC Chapel Hill. What was your time like when you were there?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, it was good. No, still no coding. I took a little visual basic class in high school, but at the time, honestly, I got turned off from the profession because, it wasn’t the work, it just didn’t feel like it was for me. You know what I’m saying? It just didn’t line up. I didn’t see anybody who I felt was cool doing it. Not to disparage anyone, but there was a lot of neck beard energy, if you get what I’m saying.

Maurice Cherry:
I get what you’re saying.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
And it just didn’t feel like it was for me. So I took a long, long hiatus, pivoting to college. I did nothing related to software there. I studied political science and Hispanic studies. That period of four years was, for me, I was continuing to chase prestige that I alluded to earlier. So I went from everything from a major standpoint, I transitioned all over the place.

First I wanted to be a business student, then I wanted to be pre-med. Then I wanted to do the pre-law thing. Really what I wanted was prestige. I wanted a good answer to, “What do you do?” And by good, I was not defining what good was. I was letting that be something that I perceived other people would say is good. I’m saying all this to let folks know that that’s not a good carrot to chase in my view, in my experience. Chasing after prestige in how other people might respond to what your job is a bad, bad journey. In my opinion. I’m sure there’s people who have done it and are doing it and it’s working out for. I’m just after a different thing, that internal resonance more so than external comparisons and validations.

Maurice Cherry:
No, it’s bad. It’s bad. I can say that. No, I mean, and the reason that I say that is because, and you probably have seen this too, there was certainly a time, I would say this time maybe is still going on, but certainly I think within the past 10 years, there has been this really big push to try to get kids to learn how to code. And that’s not to say these are bad programs. Shout out to Sure. Black Girls Code. I think there’s a Black Boys Code, all this stuff too. But those are good platforms because what it does is it at least gives them exposure to it to see if this is something that they would like to do or they would like to go into.

But the problem comes when it gets pushed on them to this point where it’s like you have to do this as a means of improving your life, getting generational wealth, uplifting the race. I’m probably taking a little bit too far by saying that, but these were the kinds of arguments at some point that a lot of people were pushing towards getting into tech. It was less about, “Oh, I’m doing this because I love programming, or I love building things,” but it’s like, “I’m doing this to be the next mega capitalist or something.”

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
That’s exactly correct. I agree with you big time. I am team learn about software and technology and computing because it helps you to think and because it helps you to navigate the world that we’re in. It’s almost like if you’re a fisherman, you better understand at least a little bit about fluid dynamics because the way the water works and is this saltwater, is this freshwater? How are the fish going to behave? You can’t become a fish, but you can understand as much as you can about the environment that you’re trying to navigate in.

To me, software is like that, and I agree about the pressure that we might be putting on some kids. It just changes from, let’s say, oh, nuts that I’m old enough to say generation to generation and be able to reflect on another one. But when I was coming up, it was kind of similar, like, oh, he’s smart. People would love to be like, “Oh, I’m living with you when I get older.” And it’s like, can I get a place first? So, yeah, I 100% feel you about the pressure we might be putting on kids to learn to code as a means of changing the narrative.

Now, it’s true that it’s possible, but to me it’s way more interesting to look internally and see how we might be able to change our own personal narrative. And then what actually resonates with people is seeing someone who’s operating in their own frequency, who’s in their lane, that’s attractive, and then you’re marketable.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. So while you were in school, you mentioned sort of bopping around and trying out these different sort of fields. I saw that you talked for a bit in Guatemala while you were in school. What was that like?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah. Totally. It was cool. Just a short little two week trip. So I knew Spanish and this organization called Safe Passage, where the first week it was just immersive doubling down on our language learning. So I knew the language, but not in a native tongue way. So worked with the tutor for a week, and then the next week we were at a school, an organization called Safe Passage, like I said, had a school in this neighborhood that we would go to and teach the kids daily. It was really nice.

I think that was one of my early formal teaching experiences, and I kind of fell in love with the idea of it being an impactful thing. I think it’s pretty clear that teaching is something that has the opportunity to really impact someone’s life, but in that case, and especially with it being my first introduction to it, to me that became the primary reason to teach. It was because I knew that I was having, while it was very short and only a week long, I knew for sure that I was having an impact on these kids’ lives. Well, mostly because by the end of the week, they were crying that I had, that we were leaving.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah. So that to me, shifted what education mean or what meant, or what being a teacher meant. It’s like, you’re not just up there passing the time. You’re having a big impact on this person’s life.

And I still bring that with me today, which is why I think it’s especially what I do on a day-to-day basis, teaching folks how to write software. The information’s out there. It’s not about me telling you what to do. It’s more about me observing you on this journey and get using my experience to say, “Hey, the way you’re approaching this might not be sustainable for your continued learning.” Or usually it will be some sort of a technical thing. But to me, I over-index on the, what some might call the soft skills or the emotional components of learning. But Guatemala was great, so I get a little excited when we start to talk about teaching because I go right to that. But to answer your question, Guatemala is a fantastic time. Would love to go back. Anybody’s going, I recommend visiting Lake Atitlan, and there’s a volcano not far called Volcan Pacaya, lovely. Walking next to lava, just underneath your feet. Absolutely crazy.

Maurice Cherry:
Lava underneath your feet. Not actual molten lava?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Actual lava to where you can’t touch it. To where my little hiking shoes were getting warm.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh my God.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah. It was a little nuts.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, that’s a little nuts.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
But it was a big exercise in trust. Because the people who were taking us up, I saw people coming down. I saw people going up. So I’m like, all right, if hope it works out. It’s cool when they do it’s a problem when I do it situation.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, after you graduated, you also taught in Korea for a year?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I did.

Maurice Cherry:
So how was that experience? Was it sort of similar to Guatemala?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, it was very different from Guatemala. For me, I thought it would be easy because I was teaching English, and I knew and still know English. I like to think I speak English pretty well, but teaching English is not the same as speaking English I learned real fast. Because my students, they were kind of like expert students, if I can be honest. They were in school all day, probably similar hours to our students here. And then after that, I worked at what’s called the Hagwon, which is a private academy.

So from 4:00 PM to 10:00 PM I had students. So in three hour sessions, four to seven was the what would be equivalent to elementary school over here, students, and then 7 to 10 were the high school students that I had. So they were used to having those Hagwons after school every day, the private academies, whether it’s math or maybe software engineering or computer science or English in my case, or there’s physical fitness ones as well. So they knew what they wanted out of an instructor, and they knew how to be model students. So they also shared that information with me. Very critical of the teaching.

Not in a bad way. At first, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but then I realized, oh, this is feedback to use and grow from. Just because they’re 11 years old doesn’t mean that you can’t listen and learn from what they’re saying. I wasn’t thinking this then, but in hindsight, they’re customers that are giving me feedback about the product, which is my countenance in class. So it was very hard.

But since I had a year, it allowed me to have periods where I could reflect on my growth. I was not as self-aware then as I am now. And I think there’ll be a point in the future where I will be more self-aware than I am now. So at the time, I wasn’t able to clearly reflect on it as I can now, but I do know that I was able to, since I had a year, use that period as a time for growth. Even if I wasn’t aware of the growth, it’s still happening.

Maurice Cherry:
We’ve actually had a couple of people on the show that have taught English in Korea. I think the last person I had on the show was, I’m going to butcher her name…Matshoshi [Matsafu]. I’m going to butcher her name. But I did have someone on the show last year.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
A few episodes back?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, a few episodes back that she’s currently at Microsoft and lives in Minneapolis, I want to say. But she taught English in Korea as well. Did you want to stay after you had done your year? Did you want to stay there?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, I did. I even considered going back once I came home. But here’s the reality. I’ve never said this out loud. I don’t know what happened, but I got fired at the very, very end of my contract.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Which, if I could just have a brief aside, I’m so hyped for myself that I felt feel comfortable just saying that without hiding it. Because I really still have no idea. And even, I wish I could know, it was 10 years ago, it was like a week or so before my contract, and they fired me. I have no idea why. I later found out some maybe not great things were happening at the Hagwon I was working at, that particular location, but I don’t have any ill will towards any of them. I’m just answering the question. I did want to stay and even considered going back, but once I got here to Atlanta, it was like, oh, well, maybe we could do something else. Let’s actually get a set of skills that’s a little more concrete. Let’s add to this.

Maurice Cherry:
So you left Korea, came back here.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Was kicked out of Korea.

Maurice Cherry:
Was kicked out of Korea, sorry. What brought you to Atlanta? Why I go back to North Carolina?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Right, totally. Okay. So here’s the true story. I was looking to for flights back, and the flight back to LaGuardia was something like $60 less than the one back to Raleigh in North Carolina. So I had an aunt that lived there, so I just called her. I was like, “Hey, I don’t want to go right back to North Carolina. Can I just kick it with you for a while?” So I lived with her for a year in the tri-state area, in Bergen County, New Jersey. And from the outside, that period would look like I wasn’t doing anything. For me, a lot was taking place.

Up until then, my identity was, like we talked about before, was being a student. My identity was that cyclical nine week he’s a pleasure to have in class a feedback loop. And I didn’t know what life was like outside of that. And even as a teacher in Korea, it was about giving that feedback, “Oh, they’re doing great.” And then experiencing life inside of an institution. That’s really what it was. Not to say to disparage that idea, I think the word institution might be loaded, but it’s the truth. I was still a part of a school.

So I needed a period of time where I was not that. I needed a break from that, and I really just needed nothing going on. So that’s what that year was for me. I was working in a restaurant, just trying to figure things out, become an adult. It’s my first time other than Korea being on my own, but also outside of, like I said before, an institution. Good year. For me that year is probably about detaching from needing others for every single thing. More about learning how to be independent.

Maurice Cherry:
So why Atlanta?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I came to Atlanta because my sister lived here and still does. And I realized that I hadn’t spent that much time with my niece and nephew, and they were, let’s see, they were five and eight at the time. So made another phone call after a year in New Jersey and was like, “Hey, thinking of moving down to Atlanta, can I stay with you?” So she was like, “Yes.” She was on board. So I’m so so grateful for her for that year. I lived with her for about a year, and during that time I got a job teaching English online to Koreans. Not the same group, but this time it was online. So it’s on the phone 10 minutes at a time.

And that was when I said, “Wait a minute, I’m spending a lot of time online. Why can’t I be a person who is responsible for creating experiences online? What would that look like?” Because sometimes you visit a website and it makes you feel stuff, which is nuts to think about. I was like, oh, I want to be a purveyor of those emotions, or at least have the skills to do so. So I started to try to teach myself how to code through Code Academy and other things. I even have a notebook that I try to take notes in, but I quickly learned it’s not a humanities profession. You have to actually learn by doing, I should say. And after being a little bit frustrated with the experience for me working in restaurants and kind of wanted my own place and all these sorts of things, I finally decided to enroll in a bootcamp called General Assembly. And that’s when I finally had a career that I felt empowered by.

Maurice Cherry:
You were at General Assembly for a while, the one down at Ponce City Market, right?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
At Ponce, yeah. So I took the course for a year, the boot camp, excuse me, not for a year, for 12 weeks at the boot camp. And then I almost immediately started working there as a TA for the front end web development course because, one, I knew I had teaching experience and I had the suspicion that teaching web development would make me better at it, and I was correct. So yeah, I did work there for a couple years on and off doing sessions even after I had already started working at Home Depot.

Which I was talking about this with one of my current students last week, and they were like, “Well, why did you keep working when you had already gotten your software engineering job? Why were you working two jobs?” And in some senses the answer is, well, that’s what I was used to. Having to work two jobs in order to keep things going. So that was still part of my psyche, my DNA, of like, okay, well, we got to keep working. That wasn’t the case from a need standpoint, I would say there wasn’t a financial gap, but it’s just what I liked to do. That’s how it became clear to me, oh, you just like teaching. That’s why you’re doing it even when you don’t need to do it.

And even my manager at the time was like, “You don’t need this job. Why are you doing six extra hours a week in person of teaching?”. But it’s really because I liked it and at the time, it wasn’t obvious obvious to me, but it’s clear to me now that this is really what I’m about. Especially when I’m teaching in person, when I’m engaged with a person, and at any point on their learning journey, I get so excited because it really is like, you know how you see people on stage like a hypnotist and they’re watching somebody’s brain just evolve and their physical behavior and all that changes because of what that person is talking to them about or navigating them through? That’s how it feels for me. Like I am watching a state change in somebody’s brain take place in real time, and it’s fascinating.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice, nice. So after your time at General Assembly, you went on to work for The Home Depot for a few years, and you taught there as well. You were a founding instructor for their kind of internal employee education resource called OrangeMethod. Is that right?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
That’s right. Yeah. OrangeMethod was great. It’s still there. I think they’re doing a slightly different thing, but very much in the same vein, I had gotten a reputation for being someone who shared knowledge on my team, which was surprising to me. Coming out of a bootcamp, I thought, and this was the case, but I thought I would be doing most of the learning. That was for sure true, but I definitely didn’t expect that I’d have any knowledge to share. It turned out that that was the case. And I always tell my students that also. Software, it’s not 100% about the technical aspects because we’re building software for human beings most of the time. So one’s human experience is something to have as input into how the software’s created.

But anyway, I had garnered that reputation for sharing knowledge that I had. And one day someone DMed me on Slack and was like, “Hey, what would it look like if we tried to scale the work you’ve been doing on your team across the organization?” So I was like, “Oh, I don’t know.” Maybe for me, a starting point was, well, maybe we could have a similar structure as the bootcamp I experienced, but make it custom to what outcome we want those folks having. So I started with that and I put together a little pitch deck for the director who messaged me and presented it to him about a week later. And then about a year later, everything that was on that pitch deck became a reality. They actually built out a physical space, I think four or five, maybe six classrooms, built out a team and actually started a cohort in, I think 2017, early 2017. So that was fantastic.

Started out with folks who worked in stores. Actually, no, first we started out with folks who were internally already at the store support center, which is the corporate headquarters, and who already knew the internals of more or less a corporate environment and then gave them the skills. And then from there, we moved on to having store associate cohorts, which that was a lot more fun because it was also learning the corporate environment for them, and also things like they didn’t spend much of their day writing emails, but now a lot of the way to communicate is written as opposed to in the store it’s a lot more verbal communication. So overall a good experience, really glad to have worked there. It’s a great place to work.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I’ve heard really great things from people that do work there. And I don’t know if this might have been the case for you, but I’ve heard that there is sort of this pipeline from General Assembly to The Home Depot in terms of graduates ended up working there. Is that what happened in your case?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, I was actually Home Depot’s first boot camp hire.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow, look at that. Making history.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
From a software engineering standpoint, they might have had some other designers, but I was the first person in the full site cohort to get hired there. And then from there, I definitely referred to a lot of people. So I’m really happy that they continue to believe in the prospect of having someone without, for let’s say, collegiate experience as a software engineer and having that be a thing going forward.

Maurice Cherry:
Cool. What have you learned about yourself through this whole process? I mean, it sounds like you really sort of caught the teaching bug first in college, and then you’ve continued to do it not just internationally, but then also here in the States as well. As you’ve been doing all this, and even now as you’re building your business, what have you really learned about yourself?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Lately, what I’m thinking about is I’ve talked about the idea of chasing prestige before, and I’m still at risk for that. So the big thing that I’ve learned is that realizing a tendency or a particular behavior pattern is not the same as addressing it. So I still know that I have the tendency to seek prestige, and this usually manifests itself in doubting the path of really doubling down and tripling down into teaching and education, because I feel like maybe I should, in quotes, be a practitioner, someone on the field, and it’s a false choice. I don’t have to choose one or the other. I can be both, probably not at the same time, but I just have to get to a place and I’m getting there where I’m comfortable with the cycles.

In other words, okay, right now I’m in a teaching phase. There’s nothing stopping me from finding a contract position to learn more stuff or practice more stuff or build more stuff and then cycle back out into a teaching phase. So the big lesson there for me is self-awareness and accepting what you become aware of about yourself rather than, again, looking outward for my validation or confirmation that the steps I’m making are for me. Because I know they are.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, you’ll find the more that you get into your business, I mean, it is, I’d say for every person that starts a business, it’s an extension of their cell themselves. And as you build the business, you’re building yourself, you’re learning more about your ins and outs and how you do things. Especially I think once you build a team too, you really start to learn more about that. Because then, I mean, it’s not about you in terms of you having to be responsible for everything, but you now have other people that you’re responsible for in terms of getting other parts of the business done. So you have to learn how to delegate and how to manage, and it’s a whole thing.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Totally. In your case, do you find your business actually behaves like you do? Like is it a scaled out version of you, or is it a part of you or something else?

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a great question. It’s a part of me. I’ll say that because I can be very, I guess eccentric is probably a good way to put it. I can be kind of like a little hippy dippy, a little woo woo, that kind of stuff, right? But then when it comes to business, I am the exact opposite. I am serious documentation processes, and that can be a conflict for people, I think, because they may know me personally and they’re like, “Oh yeah, Maurice is cool, da da da da.” But then when it comes down to business, I’m like, “Why isn’t this done?” And they’re like, “Oh, you’re different.”

So I’d say it’s a part of me because I do take that stuff very seriously. I mean, one because it’s my livelihood, so I have to take it seriously. I mean, that’s not to say that I don’t inject some levity into business. It’s not a complete Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde transformation. But when it’s business, I’m about business. And when it’s not about business, people that have worked with me and know me know that sometimes it’s flipping a switch. It’s like, oh, workday’s over. Cool, let’s go out. But when we have to get work done, we have to get work done. Because to me, one feeds the other.

So for me, it’s a part of me. It’s not a hundred percent me. I’d say probably when it comes to some marketing and even some communication and stuff, I can be probably a bit more lax than I would say be more serious. But when it comes to the actual invoicing and business and some communication stuff, I tend to be pretty strict and rigid. It has to this way. So it’s an extension. It’s an extension, certainly.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
That’s really interesting. Really interesting. Are you Gemini? No, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Pisces.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Got it.

Maurice Cherry:
Pisces, sun, Virgo, moon. It’s the duality.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
[inaudible 00:55:24].

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. So I can be very definitely creative, right brain, all that stuff. But then I’m also, when it comes to the business stuff, very logical, systematized, even to this podcast.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
You guys have systems in place.

Maurice Cherry:
These conversations are lax because there’s a tight system behind it. Right.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, buddy. It’s lovely. I was loving all that. It’s fantastic.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, aside from your business, what are you obsessed with lately? And I’m asking this because you mentioned earlier something about Lion’s Mane, and so I’d love to hear more about that.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Almost everybody that I meet and that I know I’m going to be around for an extended period, within the first day or week of knowing me. I’m probably going to pull up on you with a packet of Lion’s Mane and tell you to put it in your coffee or have it as a tea. Lion’s Mane is a mushroom. It is a legal mushroom. It is sold at the store. You can go to Whole Foods and buy some Lion’s Mane. You could go to GIAS Wholesale in East Point and buy some Lion’s Mane, local, Black-owned business plug.

And the thing about it is it has what they call it neuro-regenerative properties. So they used to think that if you lost brain cells, that was it. And side note, do your own research. I’m not a neurologist, but with Lion’s Mane, it has been found that it promotes new neural connections, which is really sick. It’s really important for learning too. And that’s all really learning is just making new neural connections. So I have it every single day since about 2015 I have it. And the way I describe it anecdotally to people is having a cup of coffee is like turning up the volume where having Lion’s Mane is increasing the brightness, getting a lot more clarity on just the lived experience.

Maurice Cherry:
I’ve seen people eat Lion’s Mane. I’ve seen them prepare it like a steak or something. I haven’t heard of it in a powdered form that you would drink though.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Totally. Yeah. I’ve actually have cooked it earlier this year. Cooked it a few times, learning a lot about cooking mushrooms. You don’t need to put oil on them at first. You let them saute out. Because they already are full of water. I was messing up big time to start out. So you let them saute out, get the juices out, and then you go in.

But yeah, you can definitely eat them. I found out about this company called Four Sigmatic that makes a powder, but there’s lots of companies now that are doing this. The important thing is how it’s grown and whether or not you’re getting the fruiting body or the mycelium. I think so. And however, Four Sigmatic does it’s the way I like it. I don’t know which way it is, but how they do it is good for me. Because it doesn’t cake up in the liquid or whatever you’re trying to drink it out of, but a lot of the other ones get a little doughy at the bottom. You know how when you drink a mocha or something, the very last sip is just all the chocolate, it gets like that.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It doesn’t dissolve fully or something.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Correct. Exactly. But the Four Sigmatic one does.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m going to have to check it out. I don’t drink coffee.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Those are my favorite words. When someone, “Oh, I’ll look into it.”

Maurice Cherry:
No, no, no.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
No, I’m serious. Because you’re going to hit me up like, “Whoa, this is really working.” I live for that moment.

Maurice Cherry:
No, because I drink tea. I think people that know me for as long as I’ve done this podcast know I’m a very huge tea drinker. Actually had a tea podcast back in 2015 at a daily tea podcast called The Year of Tea. So I drink tea every day at least two or three times a day. And the one I have in the morning is this mix of, it’s black tea, I think it’s like an Assam black tea and roasted yerba mate, and I’ll, I’ll have that together. It’s called Morning Thunder. And that’ll get me going probably for most of the day, probably at least until after lunch. It’ll get me going. Then afternoon I may have a different yerba mate tea or something like that. But no, I’m curious about the mushrooms. Because I mean, I really like mushrooms. I like eating mushrooms. I haven’t drank mushrooms. I’ve not had them even in the illegal sense, but curious about the Lion’s Mane, certainly if it’s anything that’s going to help with brain function and stuff. I’m down to try it. Certainly. And it’s organic too. Yeah, I’m down to try it. Sure.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, you give it a shot, the brand, I’ll shoot you a link, but the brand I like is Four Sigmatic. They’re not paying me. Maybe they should, but they’re not. Four Sigmatic. Really good.

Maurice Cherry:
Have you had any mentors that have helped you out along the way? I mean, I feel like this teaching journey isn’t one that you’ve walked alone.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
So it turns out that teaching is a part of my lineage. My, I think it’s great great, maybe three greats, grandfather was a teacher and moved from, let’s say, migrated from Barbados to North Carolina, if I’m not mistaken, and started a school or was one of the founding people for a school. So that’s kind of cool. I did not know this man, but he’s like a mentor in my lineage, which I’m using as validation for the possibility. In other words, not only is he another person who’s done the teaching, but he’s in my lineage, so it’s that much closer. And not only do I know it’s possible, I know it’s possible with someone who has closer DNA to me than statistically everyone on earth. So I would say that story.

And then of course there’s lots of teachers down the line in my family. My grandma’s a teacher, my mom’s a nurse, which is not teaching, but it is still like hand-to-hand combat with let’s not use combat, hand-to-hand interaction with people. So I am really inspired by people who are good at that. My dad’s also great at that. He’s got a funeral home and a lot of that work is just hand-to-hand, face-to-face with people. That’s the work that’s required. So I know that I am for sure a product of those personalities and those experiences.

From a professional standpoint, that’s actually something I struggle with, Maurice, is I really feel like I’m on a journey for which it’s difficult to find comps. I also don’t think that’s a prerequisite for a mentor that they want to do the same exact thing you’re doing or you’re on the same path. But I’ve honestly struggled with finding someone with a path that I’d necessarily like to follow. So that might be a weakness of mine honestly, is reaching out and finding day-to-day help. And I don’t think I need somebody to say, “Hey, this is what you should do.” It’s more like, I like talking through what I’m doing, which is why I’m really enjoying this. It’s not even bouncing ideas, just verbalizing what I’m up to really helps to clarify it for me. So that’s probably my biggest need. And if that’s called a mentor, then I need one if anybody’s listening wants to hold me accountable.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m curious about this because we talked a little bit about this before we started recording because I mentioned that I asked you where you lived and you’re like, “I live in Atlanta.” And I was like, “Oh, I don’t really get to have that many guests that are on in Atlanta.” Outside of your students and I guess maybe some ex-coworkers or something, have you found that support locally? Have you been able to tap into some networks or something?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
In terms of just having a sounding board and that sort of thing?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah. So what I think happened, Maurice, is Covid turned all of the connection for me. It made me put it all in the one box, my professional box, and I did not really do a good job of nurturing a network of people to fellowship with about whatever it is. But I think it’s there and I think that I need to just put in energy into, I need to actually make an effort to reach out and create or build or find community in the area. Because I know it’s here, but for me, I just find often the motivation is kind of to the earlier point you were making, but kind of an adult version, often the motivation is like, let’s get this money, which is fine, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Atlanta’s very much a let’s get this money city, so I get it.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Which okay, I’m on board, let’s get to it, right? But I think there’s so many more needs than that that people have. It’s not just like, okay, good. What if you’ve gotten to the money and you’re like, okay, now let’s sustain ourselves. Why aren’t there songs about that? So I guess the answer to your question is not yet.

Maurice Cherry:
I gotcha. What advice do you have for somebody that wants to follow in your footsteps? They’re hearing about your journey and they want to do that too?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I’d like to think my journey is one that reflects and represents awareness of self. So I’ll answer it that way. But first, if there is anybody who particularly wants to follow in the actual steps, it’s important. If I’m looking back on my professional career so far, it’s important to understand what lights you up. If I wasn’t listening enough to myself to know that I really am enliven and fulfilled by teaching, then I probably would’ve stopped doing it because I would’ve been chasing again that prestige. So that’s the internal battle for me, like prestige versus fulfillment. It seems so obvious which one’s more important, fulfillment, but I still struggle with like, oh, that would be nice. People would love it if I said this right? And I think we all have to some extent a level of that. So for me, the journey has been about understanding and managing that.

And even specifically in my case, if somebody is learning how to write code right now and they really love, this is the first thing that’s coming to mind, let’s say fly-fishing, then you should be thinking about how to make connections or what are the metaphors or analogies between fly-fishing and software engineering that you can see from your perspective such that it becomes ingrained in your being so that you can sustain it long enough to make something out of it.

And I think that particular piece of advice I’m giving might seem antithetical to the idea of work life-balance, but I actually think that it’s more important to have an integration like a work-life integration because you, there’s no avoiding the fact that we have to work. You have to feed yourself, you have to bring some money to the table. But it’s going to be much easier to do that if what you’re doing is something that you enjoy.

So first, find what lights you up, then incorporate your skill into that thing. It might be that software engineering for example, or designing or whatever the actual competency is. It might be that thing lights you up maybe, but it’s so much better, I feel, if you can attach it to another thing that you can apply to multiple things. So I could teach English, I could teach software engineering, I could teach someone how to do a workout that I just learned. So for me, the [inaudible 01:07:28] is the vessel and what I put in it is up to me. So currently professionally, it’s software engineering, and that’s how I get paid. So that’s the advice. Find something that lights you up and add the skill inside of it.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? Where do you want the next chapter of your story to be?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
I have no idea how it’s going to look. What I’d like to happen in the next short term period is I’m really loving in-person instruction and I’d love for that to take me overseas somewhere to a place I haven’t been because I just love people. I’m a big fan of people and learning about them. So to me it’s just an exchange.

So in the next five years, I hope to continue exchanging my energy with other people and using my energy to bring folks along, learning paths and journeys that they want to go on. And so far that’s been through software, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point there were other competencies or skills I found myself sharing with others to the end of doing something. So next five years, I hope to continue to be doing that and maybe traveling as an instructor to different places. Let’s do some live manifesting in two years. I’m so excited to meet everybody at the class in Morocco where we’re learning about building web apps using some framework that doesn’t exist yet. So I can’t wait to meet everybody in Morocco.

Maurice Cherry:
I like that.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
You like that?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you, about your business and everything? Where can they find that online?

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, for sure. So available on LinkedIn at Brandon Campbell-Kearns. I’m on TikTok as Quarterly Learnings, and you can also hear about the podcast on quarterlylearnings.com. The name of the podcast is Quarterly Learnings, any of those places. I’m also on Twitter @campbellkearns_, and I’d love to chat about anything you want to related to learning, and especially if you have a group of people at the place you work that need to have a particular skill, I’d love to offer a workshop for them, whether that’s a small group or a medium-sized group. That is something that I really love doing in person or online, but I’d really love to meet you in person.

Maurice Cherry:
Sounds good. Well, Brandon Campbell-Kearns, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I think what you really had to say about kind of breaking out of these expectations to really discover what it is that you want to do, that’s a super important lesson for a lot of us to learn.

I would say probably now within this past year or so, it’s really important as people’s relationship to work has changed. Whether that’s been from leaving a job voluntarily, leaving a job involuntarily. I think a lot of people right now are trying to discover what’s next for them as they look at kind of this vast landscape of where things are going. And it sounds like you’ve really been able to tap into what speaks to you on a molecular level and use that to kind of put your gifts out there in the world, which I think is something that a lot of people are trying to find. And I’m really glad to have had you on the show to share your journey and to let people know about what it is you’re doing. So thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Brandon Campbell-Kearns:
Yeah, thank you so much, Maurice, for having me, and I appreciate you synthesizing my thoughts back to me. That gives me even more perspective. You’re good at what you do. You know this.

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Joe Blau

It’s our anniversary! For this special episode, I dug way back in the archives and talked to one of our early guests, Joe Blau. He was a software engineer then, but seven years have passed, and now he’s an angel investor and the founder and CEO of his own company — Atomize.

We started chatting about the past seven years, and Joe talked about his time working for Uber and how that experience got him involved in crypto. We also talked about smart contracts, Web3, the metaverse, and a lot more. Stay tuned for the story I give near the end!

Thank you all so much for allowing me to bring these amazing interviews to you since 2013!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Joe Blau:
Hi, everybody. Also, thank you for having me back on, Maurice. My name is Joe Blau, and I am the founder of a no-code smart contract platform called Atomize, and I’m also an angel investor based in San Francisco, California.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. How has this year been going for you so far?

Joe Blau:
This year has actually been pretty amazing for us. I know last time we spoke, I was mentioning that I would go to Amazon and back and chat with my girlfriend. She’s now my wife. We have two young boys, and I would say that this year is probably shaping up to be one of the most amazingly in a good way years of my career. So I’m super excited about what’s been going on and what’s been kind of opened up in terms of opportunity for myself, and then also for a couple of friends and the company that we’re founding and we’re building.

Maurice Cherry:
How has it been just kind of working over these past few years with the pandemic and everything?

Joe Blau:
I would say that the pandemic has really introduced a lot of new dynamics into the workplace. I have a lot of friends that have gone from remote work to back in the office and back and forth. There are lots of conversations about what’s the right way. What’s the wrong way? Can we even go back in? Do we need to go back in? I’ve noticed that a lot of my friends are really unhappy with this disconnect between being out of the office and still trying to have this tight-knit relationship with your colleagues.

Joe Blau:
It’s been interesting to see that transpire in certain companies. And then other spaces, I’ve seen actually increased productivity where the teams already have this bond. They kind of already know what they’re doing, and it makes it so that people can really live their lives and have more of a work/life balance. For me personally, I’ve been trying to figure out a way to live in this new world where I can actually have that balance.

Joe Blau:
I can work from my desk in my house, have this balance of being able to be creative and be productive and not have to go into an office. So I’ve actually been trying to take advantage of it. My co-founder and I were trying to become more proponents of that lifestyle, but it has been tough because you do have people that really thrive and live off of this in-person engagement. I would say I’m one of those, too. I love meeting people in-person.

Joe Blau:
I love going to events. I love going to parties. I love meeting people. But I think that there’s this really interesting push and pull in the community right now and in all office spaces between should we be in the office or should we not be in the office and then the trade-offs of doing that hybrid.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Balance, I think, is something that so many folks now, especially so many working folks, are really trying to figure out. Companies are trying to figure it out because they’ve sunk hundreds of thousands of dollars into real estate that is largely sitting empty because people are working from home. So some companies are like, “Well, maybe we’ll do hybrid. Maybe we’ll try to figure out some way to still keep our brick-and-mortar location, but then also be able to work remotely.”

Maurice Cherry:
I know just for the show, we have folks that are in the advertising industry. I found it’s been really rough for the them because they’re really used to that in-office collaboration that you just really can’t replicate over Zoom. You can try. I think we’re starting to get better at it and such, but it’s still something we’re all trying to balance.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I’m a big fan of Star Trek. So I liken this to the whole world was basically traveling at warp speed and, all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and just dropped us out of warp. Now, we’re all looking around saying, “What are we doing? Was what we were doing before actually productive or is it counterproductive?” We’re asking a lot of questions that we just were never asking before because we were all just going with the flow because everybody else was doing it.

Joe Blau:
So I think these questions that are coming up are really important questions to ask about the future of work, and every company has their own take on how they’re trying to address it.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I think also with this balance of trying to figure it out, I feel like that’s where a lot of these talks about the metaverse, and work metaverse spaces have started to come up. We’ll get into metaverse stuff later. But I think one thing is how technology has sort of risen to fill the gaps in some way. I mean Zoom had always been around, but it really blew up in 2020 because of all of this.

Maurice Cherry:
And then you’ve got other platforms that have just started to come up because of that, because now more people are video conferencing. So there’s browser-based video conferencing solutions. There’s ways that people are trying to still replicate that experience. So technology, interestingly, has started to fill the void, but it’s still a process.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I would say right when the pandemic started, I attended a lot of Zoom weddings. I attended a lot of Zoom everything. Nothing really, up until this point, has really been a substitute for just physically being there with people in meet space, in atom space. So Zoom does kind of fill that gap, and it definitely makes it a lot easier.

Joe Blau:
If you’re fundraising and you don’t have to go walk downtown and go to a bunch of different coffee shops, if you can just have four meetings in a row on Zoom in two hours, that’s a lot easier than having to go spend half of your day walking around talking to investors, but there’s trade-offs to that as well.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean I can tell the story now because I don’t work there anymore. But one of the companies I used to work for, they were trying to raise funds right during the start of the pandemic, like March, April, May, and it was just impossible. They would try to have these Zoom meetings, and people were either Zoomed out already, they just didn’t want to do anymore meetings, or they found it difficult to replicate at that same kind of in-person shaking hands, talking over drinks kind of thing.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s just not the same over Zoom, especially when we were really trying to get a hold on what all of this was and how we were going to possibly come out of it. I mean the company is still around. It’s a shell of its former self, but it has impacted business in a big way.

Joe Blau:
One of the things that we are trying to do as, my co-founder and I, we’ve been thinking about this is we really want to see if there’s a way that we can embrace this new lifestyle because there are clearly people that really believe I should be able to work remote. I should be able to work anywhere. I want to be able to have a flexible lifestyle. So I’m looking at it more from the perspective of how do we embrace this, and what are the tools that are available for us to really take advantage of this new lifestyle and see if we can actually push this forward?

Joe Blau:
Because while there are trade-offs, I love going into the office. After I left Amazon, I pivoted to working at Uber. It was an in-office relationship, and I loved the time that I spent there. It was probably one of the best experiences in my career But right now, I feel like I’m at a point where I can step away and look back and healthily say I would rather be in a position where I can have a little bit more flexibility and have a little bit more of that balance and have a little bit more control over my time.

Maurice Cherry:
Actually, let’s dive into that a bit. When you first came on the show, which was back in 2015, you were working at Amazon as a software engineer and you had a startup that you had created called Canopsis that was working in the Internet of Things space. Now, I know you’re not at Amazon anymore, of course. You just mentioned you’re CEO of your own company now. Are you still building Canopsis? Is it still kind of in the wings?

Joe Blau:
We’re working on that for a little while, but I actually ended up sun-setting the company when I moved out work in Pittsburgh at Uber. So I’ll go through and I’ll kind of do a little bit of a historical what happened between our last interview and now, catching you up to speed since the last episode. I was at Amazon for a little bit over a year and a half working on the mobile point-of-sale application. I had a blast doing it, met a bunch of amazing colleagues and a bunch of amazing friends.

Joe Blau:
I ended up being tapped by a product manager at Uber who was actually the one that led scouting for the Uber ATG team, which is the self-driving car team at Uber. He reached out to me in mid-2015, said, “Hey, we’re building up a new iOS team out here. We need somebody to help us build the user interface for the self-driving cars. You’re going to be the second person on the team, and you’re going to help scale this team up.”

Joe Blau:
So I ended up saying, “Why would I pass this opportunity up?” I’m very big into sensors. I’m very big into sensor fusion. The self-driving car, to me, is the culmination of almost every sensor you can put into something. So in January of 2016, I ended up moving out to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I lived there for about three and a half years, and I was working on Uber self-driving car. So we were able to launch V-1 of the self-driving car and then V-2 of the self-driving car.

Joe Blau:
The software that I built and helped contribute to, we were able to conduct about 50,000 trips with actual passengers in our car in Pittsburgh, also down in Arizona, and a few trips in San Francisco. So it was a really great experience because I got a chance to work with some of the brightest minds in the software industry and in the automotive industry, amazing industrial designers, amazing software engineers, amazing infrastructure engineers, amazing LIDAR designers.

Joe Blau:
The people that invented Google Maps were working there. I mean we had the best of the best talent on the team. So I really enjoyed my time and my stint there. And then about three and a half years in, I started to want to work on a few other projects. I started to see kind of the light at the end of the tunnel. I had a feeling that Uber was eventually going to sell the self-driving car division due to the change in leadership. So I moved back to San Francisco, joined Uber AI, where I worked on a bunch of also really cool stuff.

Joe Blau:
The team was amazing, another group of extremely bright individuals. And then right after the pandemic started actually, we were fortunate enough to be able to capture some equity from being employees of Uber, and we were fortunate enough to be able to invest that into some cryptocurrencies. That basically gave us enough runway to kind of set ourselves free.

Joe Blau:
So I was able to leave Uber in early 2020, soon after the pandemic started, and took a year to kind of explore what I wanted to do, and then eventually linked up with one of my friends that I actually met at Uber ATG, who was an industrial designer. We were able to start building our company.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. That is quite a story. There’s a lot of points in there I want to touch on. I want to go back just briefly to Uber. I mean during that time that you were there with the whole self-driving car thing, there was a lot of stuff that went down just with the company, in general. Just a few of the things were around Travis Kalanick stepping down as CEO. There was a huge data breach. There was talk about employees tracking customers with this God mode.

Maurice Cherry:
Did you ever feel any of the fallout from those events, just working there? Was it a palpable thing that you were working for a company where this sort of stuff was going on?

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I mean I still have friends and I still have family members that are in the real world. They’re watching the news, and they see all of the stuff that’s happening. There were definitely lots of questions that I got about it. I had lots of friends that, when I would go visit them, they would say, “We’re going to take a Lyft. We’re not taking Uber,” even though I worked at Uber. As an Uber employee, you get free credits to ride in the cars. So for the most part, I never even paid for Ubers while I was there because you get $400 of free credits every month, or you used to.

Joe Blau:
So it was really tough, from that perspective. I think that whole season, I remember when that first started. It was in January of 2017. It was the Susan Fowler incident. Then there was the gray ball thing that you were talking about, where they were tracking people, reporters. There was Travis Kalanick yelling at the Uber driver. Then there was the guy in the-

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. Then there was the guy in India who was doing something nefarious over there. There was all these. Then there was the Anthony Levandowski taking data from Google. Then there was Travis Kalanick’s parents or his mom died in the boating accident. So there was this really compact six-month window where it was just drama every single month. We had a lot of colleagues leave. A lot of people left.

Joe Blau:
There’s a pretty fluid transfer of engineering between a lot of the Silicon Valley companies, so a lot of people that I knew that I was friends with all left and went to Facebook or Twitter or Amazon or whatever. So it was pretty tough. There was one saving grace for us, which is that because ATG was a bit insulated from the rest of the company, we were effectively our own company. We were our own separate LLC.

Joe Blau:
Because we were insulated from the rest of the company, we didn’t really feel a lot of those effects, I would say, as strongly as people that were in the rest of the world, the rest of the offices did. But it definitely had a negative impact on sentiment at the company and sentiment as a team because, in our mind, we’re building this service that’s supposed to basically make it so that you can always get a ride. The original saying with Uber was. “Push a button, get a ride.”

Joe Blau:
When you looked at the thing that drew me to Uber was actually a bunch of negative experiences that I had with taxis in a bunch of different cities where I would try to flag a taxi and the taxi would drive by. I remember being in LA and actually my co-founder at Canopsis, we were in LA and he’d lived in LA. There were a bunch of taxis on Hollywood Boulevard. We had just come out of a club. We went to go flag a taxi, and they were like, “No, no, no.” And then this other Caucasian couple comes up and they get right in and they go.

Joe Blau:
I’ve had a bunch of experiences like that in the United States. So for me, when I pick an Uber, the Uber always shows up. So for me, I wasn’t just like, “Oh, I like Uber because,” for whatever reason, because it’s cheaper or whatever. I like Uber because it actually allows me to get a cab and get from point A to point B and not need a car. I had a deeper rationale for why I would choose Uber over a cab. Now, Uber over Lyft, that’s a toss-up at that point.

Joe Blau:
But yeah, it was really tough during those years to be an employee of the company because we lost a lot of talent. People were not looking to work at Uber. Our leader had kind of lost a lot of his power to be able to be actionable and, at that point, he was replaced with Dara.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I remember those times when people were really actively boycotting Uber from the user side because all these things were happening. It’s interesting because I don’t know. Do you think Uber’s turned their reputation around because of the pandemic?

Joe Blau:
It’s a tough company right now. I think the reason that their reputation has kind of turned around is just because a lot of the things that they were doing that were interesting and kind of counterculture have just fallen by the wayside. All of their assets that they’ve owned in other countries have been sold off. So Uber in Russia got sold to Yandex. Uber in China got sold to Didi. Uber in the Middle East got sold to Careem. They’ve really offloaded a lot. Uber in Southeast Asia got sold to Grab.

Joe Blau:
So they’ve offloaded a lot of the risk of a lot of these controversial pieces that they were operating, and really it’s just become … Right now, Uber is effectively a food delivery service. It competes with DoorDash. It does have ride-sharing, but that’s not a big part of the business right now because nobody’s really traveling. So it’s a tough business to be in. And then also, you’re in extreme regulatory environment.

Joe Blau:
Either you’re driving people around, which has a lot of regulation around it, or you’re driving food around, and food has a lot more regulation around it. So it’s a very tough business to be in, and the margins are super low. They’re razor thin. It’s just a lot of optimization. When Uber was not really following the regulations, that was kind of what brought it to prominence. Now that Uber’s just behaving, nobody really cares anymore.

Maurice Cherry:
I was thinking about that as I was researching for this interview. I’ve been an Uber customer for over a decade. It’s amazing. The thing that drew me to Uber was similar to what you were talking about with cabs. I would fly out places, and then I couldn’t even get a cab to come home when I came to the airport in Atlanta. The cabs were like, “No, I’m not going to that neighborhood.” They’ll take me to downtown, which is past where I have to go.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I could hop on the train, and most of the time I would do that. But it’s like sometimes you’re just tired and you’re like, “I just want to go home.” Uber could actually take me to my apartment, where a cab wouldn’t do that. So I think it was that initial convenience, like you mentioned, that really brought people in. But yeah. Now I was wondering that just because of the pandemic.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean yeah, Uber delivers food, which their competitors really don’t do, at least in the ride-share space. Lyft hasn’t went out and done that yet. But no, I was wondering if it sort of turned things around because now so many people are using it almost as a utility because of that.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I mean I think it’s just gotten to the point where you’re either taking an Uber or a cab. What it also did was elevate the service of cabs. So cabs have to be more nimble. They need an app. They need to basically increase their service. So that increased competition helped make cabs a little bit better. But for me, I think I’m still in the same boat where it’s easier for me to just call an Uber or call a Lyft.

Joe Blau:
Right now I don’t work there. So I just basically do what everybody else does. I open the app, figure out which one is cheapest. And then I just pick that one, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Joe Blau:
So that’s where I am right now. But they’re in a position where they are trying to do a lot of partnerships and work with a lot of teams. That’s kind of the new direction is, instead of trying to just dominate the whole scene, they just want to partner and work with other people. That’s a great position to be in because you make a lot of friends that way. So it’s a good strategy.

Maurice Cherry:
So let’s talk about your current venture, Atomize. I’m looking at the Atomize website right now. It says, “Atomize let’s you deploy and interact with crypto smart contracts on chain without having to write code.” Now, before-

Joe Blau:
That’s a mouthful.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s a mouthful. Before we get into more about Atomize, tell me how you got into crypto. I mean I think you kind of alluded to it a little bit earlier with flipping that equity from Uber.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. So the journey actually started with me back in 2013. At the time, I was doing a bunch of contract work. There was a tech crunch reporter named John Biggs, and he wrote this article. It’s actually from April 8, 2013, and it’s called How to Mine Bitcoins. So I read the article. I followed all the instructions. I installed this miner basically on my computer, and I let it run all night. My fan went crazy. I ended up mining half of a bitcoin or something in this mining pool called Slush Pool, which is actually still around today.

Joe Blau:
And then after that, I just didn’t think about it because electricity in San Francisco is super expensive. I was just like, “I’m not going to waste my money on this thing,” that I think at the time it was maybe $20 or $18. I’m like, “I’m not mining this thing and I’m paying 40, $50 in electricity to get $20 of coin.” So I just left it alone. And then fast forward, in 2014, I met this individual in my building, and he was super excited about crypto.

Joe Blau:
He was like, “Oh, you got to check out this new thing. It’s called Ethereum. You got to check this out. It’s Ethereum. You’re going to love this thing. It’s like bitcoin, but it’s a decentralized computer. You can run anything on it. You can run any type of program you want. It’s like bitcoin, but with programming on top.” I remember telling him. I was like, “I’m not interested in that. All I’m focused on right now is mobile application development and sensors.” This is probably maybe six months before we first spoke.

Joe Blau:
This guy told me about Ethereum. I just totally blew him off. I was like, “I’m not interested in that. I’m only interested in mobile sensors and machine learning and stuff like that.” He was like, “All right, fine.” I nicknamed this guy, Oracle Zero now. But he introduced me to Ethereum, and I just totally passed it over. And then in mid-2016, I started hearing a little bit of rumblings, and I went and created a Coinbase account.

Joe Blau:
I was like, “Let me go see what this Ethereum thing is doing.” It had gone from the 50 cents that he had invested in at the ICO or the 25 cents that he had invested in at the ICO per Ethereum to $12 or something. I was like, “Man, that seems like a pretty good investment.” 40, 50, and whatnot. It was 50 extra money, something like that. So I was like, “Okay.” Maybe a little bit higher, 60, 70 extra money. So I was like, “Okay, this seems like a pretty interesting concept.”

Joe Blau:
So I ended up borrowing money from two of my really good friends and then taking some of my money and buying a whole tranche of Ethereum in mid-2016. I basically gave them this crazy term sheet. I was like, “I will pay you back 150% of your money in 2017 with this investment.” I told them. I was like, “Where else are you going to get a guaranteed investment of 50% return on investment in six months? Nobody’s going to give you that.”

Joe Blau:
You go to Allied Bank and they’re giving you 0.5% interest on your money. So I basically offered them this crazy deal, and they gave me money. They both wrote me checks. I deposited the money. I put it into the Coinbase. I bought crypto with it. And then I ended up paying them back in early 2017, which was actually, looking back, probably a bit of a financial mistake, but it did help introduce them to crypto because they saw the gains happen as I saw the gains happen.

Joe Blau:
And then 2017 was just that whirlwind. Ethereum went from $12 a coin to $1,500 a coin by the next year. So you have this thousands of percent run-up of this token. That was my first taste of like, “Oh, wow. This crypto investment thing is actually pretty interesting.” I was trading that whole time, but it wasn’t really fruitful because if you were trading in crypto and it was going up, everybody was making money. So everybody looked like a genius.

Joe Blau:
And then in December of 2017, that was when bitcoin hit its top. 28 days later, Ethereum hit its top. And then everything kind of came crashing down. I don’t know if this is just something innate in me, but I was already scared. So I had actually sold everything near January of 2018. So I was fully out. I had no more crypto. But what I was doing was I started paying attention to a lot of the technology that was being built. I was like, “Oh, what’s going on with these smart contracts?”

Joe Blau:
I actually wrote one of my first decentralized applications or it’s called a dApp, which it was a dog-renting website where you would go in and you could rent a dog and then put it back and stuff like that. It would all happen on the blockchain. So I built one of those, and I started playing around with it, started listening to a lot of other podcasts that are in the crypto ecosystem and really just started to pay attention to it casually.

Joe Blau:
Because really, to me, all I saw was people are making these coins. These coins are going up in value, but they don’t really have any intrinsic utility outside of the original utility of bitcoin, which is a way to send something from one person to another without counterparty risk and without being censored. So I kept playing around. We’re talking 2018. I was still working at Uber. I’m still working on self-driving cars. We’re shipping, I’m going to Arizona. I’m going to San Francisco. We’re deploying our cars in production. So I didn’t really have a lot of time to really actively manage it.

Joe Blau:
So what I would do is I would just take part of my paycheck and just start to buy slowly back in. After the price came way down, I was like, “Well, I don’t think this is going away.” So I started to slowly buy back in. And then in 2019, Uber had its IPO. So the deal that I had received from joining Uber was pretty lucrative. Actually, it was a seven-figure return from the IPO. But after taxes, you pay 50% in taxes. So it ended up being a six-figure return, which was still very good.

Joe Blau:
We decided to take that and invest it into crypto. So we just YOLO’ed all in, I would say. That ended up working out very well in terms of timing just because this last bull run kind of exceeded the intensity of the original bull run, if you were looking at the right types of products. So because I had been paying attention, I had been in the community, I’d been watching and listening to a lot of creators and influencers, people that are developers, people that are commentators, podcasters, I kind of knew where to look for this next bull run.

Joe Blau:
So I was able to just kind of get lucky and then also, paying attention, get into this crypto wave. And then what ended up happening is what I realized is that myself and a lot of my friends from this original wave all got to a certain level of wealth where we started to realize we’ve got a lot of time on our hands. That led us to start to think really more about life and about life decisions. I think it really kind of broke my brain in a good way to have me open up my thought process and think about what do I really want to accomplish?

Joe Blau:
What are some big goals, kind of Elon Musk level? He wants to basically have a colony on Mars that can be fully self-sustaining without Earth. That’s probably not going to happen in his lifetime, but that’s one of those big long-term goals. So I started to think about that a lot. But that’s where my crypto journey kind of came from back in 2013. And then it led me to where I am today. And then what ended up happening is my co-founder, I actually met him at Uber. He was an industrial designer on the same team that I was a software engineer on, and so we decided to pair up.

Joe Blau:
We’ve always been friends. We used to hang out in Pittsburgh and grab drinks together or go to each other’s homes. So him and I got together. We floated a bunch of ideas back and forth. We tinkered around with a bunch of stuff. And then we decided that since we’re both doing financially well and we’re in crypto and we’re both excited about this field, we want to make it very accessible for somebody who doesn’t know anything about crypto, somebody who doesn’t know anything about smart contracts, to be able to build one of these things and put it on the blockchain and retain ownership. That’s kind of what we’re focused on right now.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean it sounds like you really learned about this in a really smart way, which is you had been in the game really kind of learning and studying for a long time, since 2013. You didn’t just jump right into it after, I don’t know, buying stocks after Reddit recommendations or something, but you’ve been in there for a while and was able to kind of see the ebb and flow and see how things go and then find the right time to really get in. With that, you’ve started this business to help other folks get in.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I think for us, what we’re really focused on is I think there’s a key thing about crypto, which it’s a lot of things to a lot of people. There’s NFTs. There’s tokens. There’s metaverse. There’s DAOs. There’s all these words that can get floated around. But I think fundamentally what crypto provides is a contrast to the existing system that we’ve kind of been grown up and raised in if you’ve been around the internet from basically after the 2000 dot-com crash until now, which is there will be a website, fill in the name of big website dot com.

Joe Blau:
They will create a database, and they will entice you to get on that database somehow, some way. What happens is you have these network effects, which the more people that are on that website in their database, the more people want to go to that website and get in their database. So you’ve got Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Google, Apple. They all have the same kind of network effects. So what happens is these services get to a certain level of scale where you start to realize that if you’re a consumer, the one individual consumer doesn’t really matter as much because you don’t own the data.

Joe Blau:
I actually saw this in 2011. The first company that I worked for when I went to Silicon Valley, we were a startup and we used to collect Twitter data as well as other social media network data. And then we would filter the data. Then we would sell insights to companies that were our partners. We had Bentley was one of our partners and a bunch of high-level … Apple was one of our partners. So we would sell them information about what’s happening on Twitter.

Joe Blau:
Well, once Twitter realizes, hey, there’s a business here, twitter wants to roll that into their business. So they just cut off the pipeline. Twitter had this service called a Firehose. They just stopped the Firehose. And then they just run the Firehose internally. They build this business internally. They sell ads internally. And then they use that as a revenue generator internally.

Joe Blau:
So there’s this kind of push and pull between this open source ecosystem of people that are developers and that are creative and that are actually contributing to the platform and the internal team that is trying to make money any way, shape, or form to return the fund for the investors. You started to see this more and more often on the developer side from 2010 until it’s still actually going on now, where with Facebook, there was the whole App.net controversy where somebody wanted to build an app store for Facebook using Facebook’s API.

Joe Blau:
Facebook said, “No, we’re building that ourselves, and that violates our terms of service.” So they had to make something else. They made a different social network. There are tons of examples of this where somebody builds a platform. They build these APIs to allow you to integrate. But as soon as they find that somebody else is building something that has value, they cut that integration off, and then they just build it internally. The reason they’re allowed to do that is because of the network effects. They own all the data.

Joe Blau:
The contrast to what crypto does is crypto tries to take that same database, but instead of the database being inside Facebook or Google or Twitter or Amazon, the database is on everybody’s computer. So everybody has access to the data. And then it becomes a game of, or not a game, it becomes a challenge of how do you build the experience that solves the person’s problem? It’s kind of the Y Combinator’s slogan of make something people want. How do you make the thing that people want?

Joe Blau:
If you make this product or service that performs the job better than the competitor’s product or service, where you both have access to the same data, that makes it a more equitable playing field. So the thing that I like about crypto, and this is just all in theory. This could all be invalidated tomorrow for all I know. But right now, there’s an equal playing field where everybody has access to the same view into the data. Really, you as a creator or you as an engineer or you as a developer, you are just kind of like a deejay where you get to curate the songs.

Joe Blau:
You’re like, “Today, we’re playing house music,” or, “Today, our site plays house music, or our site plays hip hop, or our site plays jazz, or our site plays classical.” You get to curate that data and build your community around that curated experience. So we want to help people build products that can be put online. And then we think that as we start helping people get their things online, their software, their products, their smart contracts, it will allow them to then have other services that other people build that we don’t control, make their experience even more customized and even better just for their community or whatever they want to build.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, where does the smart contract come into play? Why is it important to have that?

Joe Blau:
If we go back to the beginning of bitcoin, bitcoin is a way for me to send you some value, basically like a token, the bitcoin, a way for me to send it from myself to you without having somebody else be able to stop the transaction. The challenge is it’s just a value. Think of it like a dollar. I’m just sending you a dollar or sending a dollar back. What people learned early on is that a lot of times value is attached to some sort of condition.

Joe Blau:
I want you to have this money after you rake my yard, or I want to give you this money after the stock price goes to $50, or I want to release this money after these six things are accomplished at this speed or whatever. So the smart contract piece is just adding logic to the value transfer. So this is what’s created this crazy ecosystem in crypto because people are trying to add all types of crazy logic to value.

Joe Blau:
Economics is the study of value of how goods and services are transported and how they generate value. When you look at crypto, crypto kind of gives you a playground to actually test out these theories. So I could write something that says, “Okay, Maurice, I’m going to give you 100 JOE tokens today. And then tomorrow, I’m going to give you another 100. And then the day after that, I’m going to give you another 100. And then the day after that, I’m going to give you another 100.”

Joe Blau:
I’m just going to keep doing that forever. As long as you have access to your wallet, my program will keep giving you 100 JOE tokens. You can deploy that onto a blockchain and see what happens. Will that eventually reach some value? Would you eventually say, “Oh, I have a billion of these, let me give these to somebody else?” Now two people have these tokens, but you’re still the only one getting paid those tokens. Does that eventually form a market or a marketplace?

Joe Blau:
Do people eventually start to say, “Oh, there’s actually value, I can actually use these things as a way to barter back and forth for some other asset or for some other thing that’s in the real world?” So you basically end up with the social consensus, which looks a lot like money, but it’s written in a way that the rules are written in code and they effectively can’t be changed.

Maurice Cherry:
Like you said, it’s all on the blockchain. So it’s decentralized, but it’s a way where … Well, I don’t know. I guess I’m still trying to wrap my head around smart contracts and NFTs and everything like that. I want to get more people on the show this year that can really explain it because I see it now, all of this being really the next generation of where the web is going to go. I’m saying last month because we’re recording in January.

Maurice Cherry:
But back in December, I attended a conference about the metaverse in the metaverse. They had people talking about all the different considerations, like interoperability and scalability and commerce. There were so many considerations and things to think about with this upcoming metaverse, which I think had already started to be a part of people’s minds once Facebook Connect happened back in I think it was October of last year, 2021, when they said, “We’re changing our name to Meta. We’re investing in the metaverse.”

Maurice Cherry:
And then all of a sudden, everyone was like, “What is the metaverse?” I think anybody that probably watched anime in the ’90s had probably already heard of metaverse. I don’t know. I think it was probably on VR Troopers or Sailor Moon or something probably. But they’ve heard of that concept, but not necessarily what it meant in the real world. So it was something that I think was part of people’s general mindset saying, “Well, I don’t want to be part of the metaverse.”

Maurice Cherry:
But after I attended that conference, what stuck out to me was that this is the next step. I could see this being potentially the next digital divide because people are putting a ton of money and resources and time into really building whatever this next massive infrastructure is. There’s so many people that are just like, “I don’t want any part of it.” But it feels like the velocity at which we are approaching this is rapidly increasing. So I want to try to learn more about it to try to see where I can fit in with all this stuff.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I guess for me, I kind of separate metaverse and crypto into two separate buckets. For me, the metaverse is the next evolution of AR/VR. AR/VR is a technology that was invented in I think the late ’80s, and they’ve slowly been incrementally trying to push it and make it a reality. This is very similar to self-driving. One of the reasons why I worked at Uber and I went to Pittsburgh is because Carnegie Mellon, they had a self-driving car in 1989 called ALVINN that was able to kind of do some basic navigation. They were one of the pioneers of helping make self-driving a reality.

Joe Blau:
So I got to learn from some of the best of the best that invented a lot of the processes for self-driving. So you’ve got this technology vertical, self-driving cars. We don’t have the human-level self-driving car yet, but we’re on our way towards that progress, and that’s something that started in the ’80s. VR/AR is the same thing. It started in the ’80s. We’re trying to get to that point where we have compute and screens and comfort and battery power that can make this experience good or good enough that you will feel comfortable immersed in this environment, so that your neck doesn’t hurt, so that you don’t get dizzy, so that it feels as realistic as possible.

Joe Blau:
That’s another vertical that’s kind of being developed in what I would say is the newest incarnation, which is the metaverse. And then you’ve got crypto. Crypto is really about censorship resistance and reducing counterparty risk. Earlier, you were asking about what is a smart contract. If you just think about a regular contract in real life, you go rent a car at Avis. They give you a piece of paper, and you sign your name on it. When you sign your name on it, you’re agreeing to all of the words that are in that paper.

Joe Blau:
If I crash it, I’m going to have my insurance pay for it or whatever. It doesn’t have any of these dents or these dings. That’s what you’re agreeing to. Now, that contract is adjudicated by some legal entity, probably a judge. So if you violate that contract, there’s going to be somebody that’s going to say, “Oh, Maurice, he borrowed this car. It didn’t have any scratches. I don’t know what happened. But all of a sudden, there’s a big scratch on the driver’s side door.” You have to pay whatever the contract stipulates in the contract.

Joe Blau:
So if you just take all that logic that we just said, if car gets scratched, you have to pay X amount of dollars, if this thing doesn’t do this, then you have to do this. You write that in code, just like I would say, “If this happens, then do this.” You would write that in code. And then you can deploy that code into a database that everybody in the world has access to read and see. That’s pretty much what the smart contract is.

Joe Blau:
So the NFT, or a non-fungible token, is a contract that specifies that there is effectively only one of these. Fungibility is this concept in economics that means that if I have something, the one thing that I have is no different than the one thing you have. So the best way to explain it is if I have 10 $1 bills and you have 10 $1 bills and somebody picks up all of them and then they redistribute them and they give you 10 new ones and they give me 10 new ones, you’re not going to say, “I want the one with serial number that ends in 05 because that was mine,” because dollar are fungible, which means I can exchange my dollar for your dollar or your dollar for my dollar and it doesn’t matter. They’re exchangeable equally.

Joe Blau:
Non-fungible means if I have a dollar, my dollar is special and your dollar is not. So that’s when you get into things like trading cards or Beanie Babies or pet rocks, things that have a unique value. If I have a special anime card or special Magic: The Gathering card and you don’t have that Magic: The Gathering card, that’s non-fungible. I can’t just give you mine and you’ll give me any other one back. So these non-fungible tokens are representations of unique items.

Joe Blau:
The way that they’re defined is in what’s called a smart contract. This item only exists and is only owned by this one person, for example.

Maurice Cherry:
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, I get it. I understand. Okay. Thank you so much for that explanation.

Joe Blau:
There’s a lot of economic theory. There are a lot of disciplines that all merge in together to form crypto. You really have to be multidisciplinary, which I was not before I started learning about all this stuff. You really have to learn a lot to try to fit your into what is actually going on in crypto.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, where do you see, I guess, Web3 with all of this? I keep hearing Web3 being called the technological evolution of the internet.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. So Web3, it’s funny because, as a software engineer, I’m always thinking like, “Okay, what is the most basic thing?” Web3 is a library that was created that literally all it does is let you interact with this blockchain. So this database that is this ever-growing database that everybody has access to, Web3 is just a library that lets you read and write from that database. Now, what’s happened is that term has been co-opted to be everything involving crypto.

Joe Blau:
So Web3 means smart contracts. It means dApps. It means Solana. It means means everything. It means bitcoin. Everything kind of falls into this Web3 umbrella. The mantra behind Web 3.0 is that we’re going to create a new internet that is not owned by Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, but it’s owned by the people. That is the charge. The way that the people can own the internet is because of what I mentioned earlier. When you create the smart contract and you deploy the smart contract on the blockchain, you own the contract.

Joe Blau:
There’s nobody else that can go in and take custody of the contract. That design is the genius invention that bitcoin created, but it just created it for money basically, for value. When you own your bitcoin, nobody can just come take it from you. You have to basically give it to somebody else. There’s no way for somebody to take your bitcoin. You have to voluntarily give it to somebody. Now, a judge can say, “Hey, you violated this law and you owe us XYZ dollars in bitcoins. If you don’t pay this fine, then you’ll go to jail or whatever.” And then you can hand it over.

Joe Blau:
But there’s no way that they can just go into your account and pull the bitcoin out. You have to hand it over. This Web3 concept just takes that version of you have to give over your bitcoin to you have to give over anything you create in Web3. So I mean you can obviously get tricked out of it. There’s a lot of people that are getting scammed and hacked because a lot of the tooling is not amazing. But effectively, you have to give something away. Nobody can take anything from you.

Joe Blau:
That’s the whole concept behind this Web3 movement. We’re building a version of the internet where Facebook doesn’t get to block your account or Twitter doesn’t get to revoke your developer access or YouTube doesn’t get to take down your video because they thought that this looks very similar to another video even though you did all the work and recreated and remastered and built everything yourself. We’re building a version of the internet where you own your stuff.

Joe Blau:
And then you have to go through the regular legal process. If in the real world, something happens that violates a law, there’s a legal process that you go through. It’s the same thing in crypto. Mt. Gox lost a bunch of people’s money. They did a bunch of shady stuff. They went through a legal process. They got their bitcoin confiscated, and they went through the regular process that anybody who did anything shady would go through.

Joe Blau:
So it kind of just slows down this network effect process of aggregating data, aggregating user information, and then being able to use that to rent, seek, and kind of take over and start to build this vertically-integrated, monopoly-style business.

Maurice Cherry:
So for people that are listening to this now and, hopefully, folks are listening to this and they’ve been able to wrap their head around these concepts. How can folks start getting involved with smart contracts and Web3? Because it sounds like these are, as you’ve described them, they’re kind of different entry points, but still somewhat related.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I mean there are a lot of resources. It’s very difficult for me to point to good resources because lots of people have lots of takes on it. I would liken this to the internet in 1997, ’98, where everything looks like a great idea. Pets.com looks like a great idea. Webvan looks like a great idea. All these things look like great Ideas. Maybe when you fast forward 20 years, while Pets.com failed, Amazon now has a pet store as a sub domain of their website, and it’s effectively what pets.com’s vision was. It’s just 20 years later.

Joe Blau:
So these ideas may be working, but it’s very hard to really find great information. Maybe I should build some sort of resource. I mean there’s a gentleman by the name of Jameson Lopp who really organizes a lot of great information around bitcoin. He has a great website, if you just search for Jameson L-O-P-P. I think it’s lopp.net or something like that. He has a great resource that kind of encapsulates a lot of information about bitcoin.

Joe Blau:
I think bitcoin is a good place to start learning because it’s a very confined space in terms of what bitcoin can actually do. Because once you start getting out of this bitcoin space, everything gets very crazy and very wild very quickly. It’s just the stuff that people are doing, no financial economics book would have ever predicted this, ever. It’s like the wild, wild west of finance right now.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m glad you made that analogy to the early days of the web because that’s really how I see a lot of the activity right now going on with the metaverse. Calling back to this conference that I had went to, there was one session. I’ve told this story on the podcast before, but there was this one session I went in where this guy was showing off digital land in a metaverse that he was a part of. He had on this NFT suit.

Maurice Cherry:
He’s like, “I can walk into this NFT, and look at how it changes.” He’s saying like, “You all should really see this.” We’re like, “Okay, fine, whatever.” It was just like walking around in VR space or whatever. He’s like, “All these plots of digital land are available. If it anybody’s interested, we can go ahead and start the bidding.” Someone bought a plot of land inside of this virtual world. It was a 300 square meter plot for $10,000, just bought it right on the spot.

Maurice Cherry:
In my mind, I’m like, “What are you going to use that for?” I guess you could build something on it, I guess, in this particular metaverse world that you can have people come to. But it had me thinking about The Million Dollar Homepage and how people were buying up little pixels just to be on this one page to stake their claim and say, “Ha, I was a part of the internet at this time when it happened.” It is very much like the wild, wild west, all of this, because it’s not regulated.

Maurice Cherry:
People are doing all kinds of just wild … I mean we’re using these adjectives wild, and crazy, but it’s really kind of mind-boggling just how much is going on with a lot of this stuff. It feels like history is being written every day when it comes to these things. It’s unprecedented. Yeah. Like you said with the analogy about the economics book, no one could have seen any of this stuff really actually, possibly happening, and now it is happening.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I think about the whole NFT space because a lot of people have a bunch of different takes on it. Some people are like, “Why would anybody buy a JPEG online that you could just copy and download?” I’m not very big into art collecting or lots of mechanical stuff. I used to really be into mechanical watches, but right now I just wear an Apple Watch. It tells the time perfectly. Mechanical watches have drift. They’re effectively, to me, just jewelry right now.

Joe Blau:
But there are people that they buy things because of the story. Human beings are creatures of story. I’m sure, as you’ve been going through the podcast and having these conversations, really what people get captivated by are the story. If you just see a CryptoPunk and you’re like, “Oh, this is just an eight-bit image that’s not really that nice,” that’s one story you can tell yourself.

Joe Blau:
But there’s another story, which is this CryptoPunk was one of the first ones that got minted. I got it gifted to me. And then it was sold to this other person who was a prolific artist who then sold it to Gary Vee, and now this is Gary Vee’s CryptoPunk. Now there’s a story. There’s this narrative that flows from what this thing represents. People love to buy stories. When you watch football or you watch anything, it’s all about the story.

Joe Blau:
Formula 1 was boring to a ton of people until Netflix made that Formula 1 show with all the story about what’s actually going on behind the scenes, who’s got problems with whom, who’s getting fired, who’s getting hired. It’s just a story. I think a lot of what NFTs are about right now and what’s really captivating is a lot of these stories. Somebody just stole $20 million worth of NFTs. That’s a classic heist story that people love to read.

Joe Blau:
This kid who was 12 years old is now a multi-millionaire because he created this little NFT collection, and he became a multi-millionaire off of it. That’s the rags to richest story. People love to hear those stories. So a lot of what I see in NFTs is really just a reflection of what happens in the real world. It’s just that it’s being accelerated because we’ve got the internet. We’ve got this technology that really allows us to push this narrative a lot faster.

Joe Blau:
A bunch of bloggers and a bunch of YouTubers can come up and tell the story super quickly instead of having to syndicate it through a newspaper network that takes a day to turn over and whatever. So I think that the story is really what is driving a lot of what’s going on in the crypto space and especially in the NFT space. From that perspective, I get it because I love stories. I love watching movies. I got into the Formula 1 thing just like a lot of my friends did after watching the story behind all the people.

Joe Blau:
Now I know everybody’s name. I know who’s got problems with whom, who started off at what racing firm and went over here and got downgraded to here or got demoted to this team and whatever. So what people are building with these NFTs are really just stories, and people will pay unlimited amounts of money for a great story.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. That’s a great way to put it. Now that I think about it, especially a lot of the talk I’ve seen around NFTs, people just starting to sort of get into them and are making astronomical amounts of money. But then even ones, like people that are buying these NFT art pieces and such, which I watched the video, I think it was the other day, that was like, “Why is most of the NFT art so ugly?” That had me thinking about, well, is this an opportunity for some designers to try to find a way to make their way into the NFT space?

Maurice Cherry:
I know a few Black NFT artists that I’m really trying to get to come on here to really talk about how this is working for them. But yeah, I totally, totally understand what you mean about people buying the story. That makes a ton of sense to me.

Joe Blau:
Yeah. I have a few friends. This is also to this whole story thing. Back in mid-2017, the CryptoPunks people reached out to them and they said, “Hey, we’re going to give you 26 CryptoPunks.” Because of the influx of growth in crypto in 2017 where everything looked like a scam, and there was 100 coins coming out a day, these guys were like, “Nah.” They just ignored it. And then a few months ago, they went back to look through their emails just to see if anything had come from Larva Labs.

Joe Blau:
They saw that they had an opportunity to have 26 CryptoPunks. What’s the floor on CryptoPunks right now, $250,000 or something like that, some crazy number? So they would have been done. But this is also part of the story, right, the opportunity that I missed. All of these little things are all parts of you can watch any movie or any Disney show or whatever. They’re all parts of these stories where people love to just kind of tell these stories. That’s really what I think a lot of what’s going on is about.

Joe Blau:
It’s really about these stories, the legality. Do you really own this or not? The rags to riches, the heist, the clones, the fakes, there’s all these like, “Oh, I took this NFT and I turned everybody that was facing to the right, I made them face to the left,” and then the controversy around that. So there’s all these things that are really just that narrative. I think that’s really what’s selling with a lot of NFTs. We’ve had this since the dawn of time. We’ve been making stories about stuff and selling stories forever.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, yeah. Good point. Really good point. What does success look like for you at this point in your career?

Joe Blau:
I feel like I’m in an interesting and very privileged space right now just because last time we spoke you asked me, “Are you at the top of your game?” I was like, “No, not even close.” I didn’t even hesitate to say, “Not even close.” I think by working at Amazon with the amazing people that I was able to work with, by working at Uber with the amazing people that I was able to work with, by getting access to a lot of really high-quality individuals in Silicon Valley through angel investor networks and through just socializing, I feel like I’ve gotten to a point where I would still not say I’m at the top of my game, but I feel like I know what I’m shooting for right now. I know where my stride is.

Joe Blau:
One of the things that happened actually right before the pandemic, so late 2019, really soon after I sold all my Uber stock and bought all this crypto, my brother and I actually went back to West Africa, which is where my mom’s from, in Sierra Leone. We get to West Africa. We land. And then my mom wanted to take us to the village and the house that she grew up in. So we ended up getting a car. It takes forever. It’s not that far if you were in the United States and you were driving on a highway. But in Africa, it’s a five-hour trip that should be an hour.

Joe Blau:
So we finally get to this village. On our way there, we saw a bunch of these signs. It’s hilarious because they have all these cities there called … They have a New York there. They have a New London. Yeah, it’s funny. There’s all these little town names. You would never even think about this. A joke that my brother and I, as we were leaving the town where my mom was born and raised and grew up, my brother and I were like, “We should start our own city called New Atlanta, and start it in Africa and build the city.”

Joe Blau:
If we were going to design a city that we wanted to be successful and build it somewhere in West Africa, what would we build? Where would we build it? It was just a joke at the time. But I’ve been thinking about it a lot recently in terms of the type of … I know there are lots of other famous people. I think Akon is building a city, and I think Kanye West is building a city. A couple of really famous people are building cities.

Joe Blau:
But one of the things that I’m really excited about is science, engineering, the STEM fields or STEAM fields, science, technology, engineering, art, and math. One of the things that I’ve noticed about crypto is in, some of the communities that I’m in, I’m seeing what happens when you unshackle a person from needing to have money. It really opens up a lot of opportunity and a lot of thought and a lot of creativity to people that have skills, but they can’t necessarily create in the way that they want to create because they’re kind of restricted by being an employee at a company and whatever the OKRs or whatever the goals are, or the profitability of the company, or you have some sort of fixed time that you have to be in and be out of work or whatever the constraints are.

Joe Blau:
So I’ve really been thinking about this idea. I don’t really have anything formalized yet, but just thinking about what would it look like to build a modern city. I guess the goal for me would be … Elon Musk has this program where he wants to have rockets fly from city to city within 30 minutes. What would it be like to have a city where you could host that in West Africa? What does that look like? What does that city look like? What does that design look like? I don’t have anything working towards it. I have no plans. I have no drafts. I have nothing.

Joe Blau:
It’s just an idea in my head, but that’s something that I would love to see come to fruition. I think that through the companies that I’m investing in, the projects that I’m building, I think that I can start to kind of chip away at that goal and that vision. It’s going to take, obviously, a lot more trips back to West Africa. It’s going to take a lot more conversations.

Joe Blau:
But I think that’s something that, for me, if I can get towards the goal, just any way, shape, or form towards the goal of building that city and New Atlanta’s just a name because my brother and I were like, “Atlanta is awesome. The Black population and culture there is amazing. So we’ll just build a new one.” If I could get to anything towards that, I think that’s going to be something that I would be really excited about leaving as part of a legacy on planet Earth.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, aside from all of this tech that we just talked about, we didn’t even really touch on you being an angel investor. How did you wander into that?

Joe Blau:
That’s a funny story. So when I was at Uber, I met … My manager, actually the person who hired me, he told me. I asked him the same question. I was like, “Hey, how do you become an angel investor?” He’s like, “Just start writing checks and start losing a lot of money.” So that’s effectively what I did. I just started finding companies. I think the first key thing about being an angel is you have to come up with some sort of thesis. Why are you investing? Are you investing to make money? Are you investing to have a social impact? Are you investing for whatever your thesis is?

Joe Blau:
And then you need to know what your constraints on your investments are. I’m a developer, so I called my investment firm Deploy Capital because it’s just like deploy code or deploy whatever. I said Deploy Capital. And then the idea is that I want to invest in people that are working at a company. They’ve got some great idea, but they can’t execute on their idea or their vision because management is saying like, “This is not a priority right now.”

Joe Blau:
I’ve seen this time and time and time again in companies where there’s an idea, there’s a team, there’s a group of people that have some idea. They can’t build their idea. They go out, become successful. They build their idea. But then they get reacquired back into some other company who’s like, “Oh, this is actually working.” So I really want to help the people that are dreamers, that have ideas, that want to build something, but they’re constrained from a financial aspect. I want to help them grow, and I want to help them build whatever their vision is.

Joe Blau:
Building a company is not easy. There’s lots of little steps, but there are lots of tools out right now that make it a lot easier to build a company than it’s ever been. So if I can just help in any way, shape, or form, give you some help on tooling, give you some intros to investors, help you find talent, those are the types of things that I want to be able to provide and just be a sounding board. What do you think about this?

Joe Blau:
So I got into it because I had some extra money, and I thought lots of people that I know are writing money into these companies. One of the things I realized is that investing is how a lot of the wealth in America is created. You put your money into some company, and then the people that are at the company are doing all of the work. You’re just sitting there, and the value of your thing is going up because other people think that thing is going to go up.

Joe Blau:
So I kind of got into it because I wanted to make more money. But now I have more of a thesis around it when it comes to the types of investments that I’ll do.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you want to accomplish this year? I mean it sounds like you’ve got your hands on a lot of different things. I mean you’ve got your business. You’re investing. You’re doing all these other things. What do you want to come out of 2022 having done?

Joe Blau:
I would say that, from my company perspective, I would want to come out of this year with a team that is the size of about 25 people. We have an exciting, growing business. I think we’re on trajectory to do that. We obviously want more partners that we’re working with, the best and the brightest in the software engineering space, whether they’re smart contract developers or React Web3 developers. We’re looking for those people. So I would want to have that be successful.

Joe Blau:
From a family perspective, I want to make sure that as my children are getting ready for life … They’re still young and they’re going into kindergarten. I want to make sure that they’re getting the best experience they can. When I went to school, I’m pretty sure most people went to school like this where it’s you just go wherever is closest to your house. You’re just in the room with whomever is there, and the teachers are who the teachers are. You don’t really have any optionality.

Joe Blau:
We’re fortunate enough to be in a position where we have optionality, and I want to make sure that the experiences that they get are better than the experiences that I got as a child. Just overall in life, I want to make sure that I go through 2022 enjoying it because this year has started off so awesome. I’m really having a great time. I’ve met a lot of new people. I’ve met a lot of great friends. I’m in this perpetual learning loop. I just want to meet more people, spend more time with people. I want COVID to be over so I can go back and hang out with people in the real world.

Joe Blau:
I just want to be able to really enjoy life the way I was enjoying it before, but with a little bit more freedom and a little bit more optionality to celebrate and do things that I want to engage in. And then just meet more people, make more friends, build a business with my friends. People that are looking for help, I want to help them build their businesses and build their dreams as well.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you and your work and everything that you’re doing online?

Joe Blau:
Yeah, for sure. The company that I’m founding is called Atomize, and we are atomize.xyz. If you have any questions for me specifically, you can send me a message at joe@atomize.xyz, and that’ll come to me. Last time I spoke, I had @joeblau everywhere except for Twitter. I have a funny story. I was actually able to get @joeblau on Twitter, no underscore.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Joe Blau:
I traded it with another person named Joseph Blau as well. The trade was that I had to buy him a HomePod and some AirPods, I think AirPods Pro. He sold me the Twitter handle for that. So it’s pretty funny because if you look at the shipping, it’s from Joe Blau in wherever, I think I was in Pittsburgh at the time, to Joe Blau where he lives. So it looks like somebody buying themselves something. And then we just got on a call, and we did the trade.

Joe Blau:
So if you’re looking for me online, at J-O-E-B-L-A-U is pretty much the same address everywhere, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, GitHub, Dribbble, everywhere. And then for my angel investing, that is at deploy.capital. So if you have any great ideas and you have some insight that your leadership is overlooking and you think there’s going to be a great opportunity to build a business, I would love to chat with you about it.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well, Joe Blau, I cannot thank you enough for coming back on the show. This show is our ninth anniversary episode. It’s really special to me, I told you this a little bit before recording, because when I first had you on the show back in 2015, your interview came out. I think it was in February 2015, and I was ready to throw in the towel on Revision Path. I was getting so much flack from the design community and from just random folks out there.

Maurice Cherry:
I was like, “I don’t want to do this anymore.” Your dad wrote me a letter after the interview. I’m going to read the letter to you because I don’t know if he ever shared it with you, but he wrote me this letter. I have it printed out above my desk to look at on those days where I’m like, “I’m tired of Revision Path. I want to give this up.” So I’m going to read the letter to you.

Maurice Cherry:
It says, “Maurice, please accept this email as kudos for your really excellent interview of Joseph Blau. I am not an impartial listener, but rather Joseph’s dad, Robert Blau. You may even remember his having mentioned me a few times for exposing him to computers at a young age and taking him around the world as a child of a career foreign service officer. In any case, I was so very proud of Joseph’s performance, both for the content and for his poise and eloquence.

Maurice Cherry:
“This is also a tribute to you for asking him the kinds of questions that would get him to make the many intelligent comments that he made over the course of the interview. I was especially pleased with the discussion that success is not usually an accident or God given, but rather the product of hard, painstaking work. His time at Virginia Tech brought out those qualities in him, and life has continued to teach him this lesson over and over.

Maurice Cherry:
“As you noticed and pointed out, he is already successful, but has his sights set on even greater levels of success. So thanks for doing a great job as interviewer and maybe, in the process, giving Joseph the kind of exposure that will help build his corporate brand.”

Joe Blau:
That’s amazing. I love my dad because he has a lot of heart. I always notice that when I hang around with him. He has been a pioneer and really a great inspiration to me just in all the things that he’s done, whether it’s work ethic or just integrity, character. I really appreciate him sharing that with you and I also appreciate hearing it because him and I, we’re very close. So I think that it’s an amazing letter. I’m glad that it’s an inspiration that kind of keeps you going.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It came at a time, I mean I was really set to give this up. And then that very next month, I was at South by Southwest and I presented this talk I did called Where are the Black Designers? And then that just completely skyrocketed my career. It skyrocketed this podcast. I don’t know if I would have done that if I hadn’t have gotten that push from your dad writing to say, “You’re doing a great job. Keep it up.”

Maurice Cherry:
So thanks to you. Thanks to your dad. You’re killing it, man. I can’t wait to see what you got coming up in the future. But thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Joe Blau:
Awesome, yeah. I appreciate you having me. Thanks. I would love to come back and follow up maybe later next year or something. We don’t have to wait seven years between shows next time.

Sponsored by Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit is a strategy and design firm committed to designing a more inclusive and equitable world.

We accomplish this through graphic design, presentations and workshops around I-D-E-A: inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility.

If you’re curious to learn how to combine a passion for I-D-E-A with design, check us out at brevityandwit.com.

Brevity & Wit — creative excellence without the grind.

Sponsored by The State of Black Design Conference

The State of Black Design

Texas State University’s Communication Design Program is excited to announce The State of Black Design Conference, a three day virtual event March 4-6, 2022.

This year’s theme is “family reunion”, and there will be over 50 amazing speakers, including author and educator Jelani Cobb, and world-renowned poet, activist, and educator Nikki Giovanni.

This year debuts the State of Black Design’s Resume Book initiative, so if you’re a Black design student, or you’re a Black designer looking for your next role, then listen up!

You will be able to submit your resume and your portfolio to the Resume Book, along with your institution of study and major if you’re a student, and recruiters and employers will have access to it before the event. If you’re interested and you want to be included in the Resume Book, send your info to blackdesign@txstate.edu with the subject line “Resume Book”. You have until March 3, 2022 to submit.

The State of Black Design Conference is brought to you with the support of the University of Texas at Austin, Universal Pictures Home Entertainment, Microsoft, General Motors, Design for America, Civilla, IDSA, AIGA, and Revision Path.

Visit The State of Black Design Conference website for tickets. Hope to see you there!

Nici Kelly

Tech can be a lucrative career, but how many of us think of it as a way to close the wealth gap in the Black community? Nici Kelly does, and I love that her mission is to show people the different pathways into tech and tech entrepreneurship as a way to build a legacy.

We started off talking about Nici’s company, Care Covr, and her inspiration behind starting it in the midst of a global health pandemic. Our conversation continued when Nici talked about building Black wealth, her early introductions to technology, working in and with the Atlanta tech community, and what motivates her to keep going while also giving back to others.

Remember the name Nici Kelly, because I definitely think you’ll hear more about her for years to come!

William Hill

The great thing about talking with so many people for Revision Path is discovering just how many things we share in common with our fellow brothers and sisters. That’s why I’m so glad for folks like William Hill who are out here embodying what it means to work with purpose.

We started off talking about how we’re both coping at this stage of the COVID-19 pandemic, and William went in depth about his new role at New Relic, as well as his former role as a software engineer and team lead at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. William also shared his story of growing up in a small southern town, and talked about how he defines success at this stage of his life and career. Give this week’s episode a listen for a healthy dose of inspiration!

Sponsor

Facebook Design is a proud sponsor of Revision Path. The Facebook Design community is designing for human needs at unprecedented scale. Across Facebook’s family of apps and new product platforms, multi-disciplinary teams come together to create, build and shape communication experiences in service of the essential, universal human need for connection. To learn more, please visit facebook.design.