Matese Fields

When did you fall in love with design? While some people have always been able to tap into that creative spark, for others it might take some time trying different things until you find your way into design. Such is the case with this week’s guest, independent brand designer Matese Fields. His explorations have taken him all over the country, and now he’s living and working in the creative hub of Portland, Oregon.

Matese told me a bit about some of his latest projects, and then he shared what inspired him to get into design. He also spoke about how his background in marketing helps him in his current work, and gave some great advice and resources for any budding brand designers out there. Matese has been able to make a living and build a life by following his passions, which is something we can all get inspired by!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

Matese Fields:
I am Matese Fields, and I am an independent brand and product designer in Portland, Oregon.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. How has 2023 been going for you so far?

Matese Fields:
2023 has been fantastic. I had a pretty rough 2022. Honestly, one of the worst years I’ve had in a long time. So I think when I came in 2023, I kind of came into this mindset like, “That’s not happening again.” And it hasn’t. So far it’s been great. I feel like for the first time in a long time, I’m kind of firing on all cylinders, so it feels good.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, that’s good. That’s a good turnaround. I mean, I think 2022 was a rough year for a lot of people. Particularly if you were working in tech, or design, or something because of a bunch of layoffs and stuff. COVID is still around. A lot of people had a rough year. I had a rough year last year too, so I completely a hundred percent understand where you’re coming from.

Matese Fields:
Definitely.

Maurice Cherry:
I saw on Instagram you just finished up a branding campaign last month. Can you talk to me about that?

Matese Fields:
Yeah, that was one of the high points of my 2022. I got to work with a company called Black Campaign School. And so I kind of partnered with this group called Three Point Strategies, and helped them reboot what Black Campaign School is. And so they’ve been around I think since 2016. We kind of came in with the goal of differentiating it from some of that kind of DC vibe. Super political, red, white, and blue theme that they had originally had. So yeah, I came in, worked with them on the branding side of determining what Black Campaign School is, sort of redoing that logo, a lot of their brand identity. And then we built out a lot of stuff for their reboot of the actual physical school, which was really cool. I got to do a lot of physical stuff for the camp, which is located at Haley Farm in Tennessee. It’s a really cool, historically Black farm in Tennessee. So yeah, it was great.

Maurice Cherry:
You said red, white, and blue. Was it a political advocacy group or something?

Matese Fields:
Yeah. So basically the goal of Black Campaign School is to teach people who are really involved with campaigning and that organizing for social justice and stuff like that. It’s kind of a school to teach them how to use that and take that to politics, and run for office, or boost that up a little bit.

Maurice Cherry:
Interesting, okay. Yeah, because I was looking through the branding. It’s only as you mentioned it now that I was like, “This is political,” because the branding does not at all scream politics. Which I think is good. I mean, I’ve worked on a political campaign. So I feel like every campaign from California to Florida uses red, white, and blue in some iteration. So when you said that and you mentioned it, I was like, “Is that what it is?” But yeah, and I’ll put a link to it and everything so people can check out what the brand looks like, but I definitely did not get politics from it.

Matese Fields:
That’s great. We accomplished the goal for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. Are you working on any other projects at the moment?

Matese Fields:
Currently, no. So I kind of knew that January was going to be more of a slow month for me. So a lot of January was me just trying to get my stuff in order. So updating my portfolio. I’m kind of in the midst of getting my LLC. So doing a lot of work with that. Doing a lot of promoting on social media, just trying to get my work out there.

But I am starting a new project on Monday, which is exciting. It’s a small little contract gig with Breville, which they make tabletop coffee makers and stuff like that. So that’ll be fun. And then on another fun side, I started a Euchre club. I’m not sure if you’re familiar what Euchre is,

Maurice Cherry:
Spades, right?

Matese Fields:
Similar to Spades, but not quite. It’s like a game of tricks, but it has a little different nuanced than Spades. But I’m from the Midwest originally, so it’s a big, Midwest thing for us. So I started a club with a group of 14 of my friends. And I was like, “Well, I don’t have that much to do. Why not just kind of act like this is a project?” So I made a logo for it, got swag made for it, and stuff. So it’s been kind of a fun thing to do.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. I have not heard Euchre since, and I’m dating myself here. I haven’t heard Euchre since Yahoo Games. I think Yahoo Games had Euchre. I think they also had Spades too, but they had Hearts of course, Literati, stuff like that. What drew you to Euchre? Is it a distinctly Midwest game?

Matese Fields:
I think it is. It’s fun when you have a group of a few people. And I feel like every time we’d be hanging out at somebody’s house, all my friends in Portland are from the Midwest in some capacity. So it’s like whenever we’d hang out, we’d be like, “Let’s play Euchre.”

And so we actually had this party back in end of last year, and it was called the Midwest Fest. My friend put it on. Basically it was a party, and everyone brought casseroles, and everything was themed Midwest. There was corn hole, and there was a bonfire, and everything you do in the country of the Midwest. And so we ended up playing Euchre there, and there was so many people interested. We were like, “Why not just start a club?” So yeah, it kind of started from there.

Maurice Cherry:
Interesting. Urban Dictionary defines Euchre as a four-person trump-based, not the president, trump-based card game primarily played on Midwestern college campuses involving a 24 card deck and many beers. Is that accurate?

Matese Fields:
That is insanely accurate. Lot of beers are had. Yes. I started playing in college. That is so accurate.

Maurice Cherry:
What inspired you to become a brand designer?

Matese Fields:
I honestly never saw this for myself. I think if you would’ve talked to me five, 10 years ago, I’d have been like, “No.” But I don’t know. I’ve always been creative in a sense. It hasn’t always been in the design or art sense. But I’ve always kind of had an eye for creativity.

And so when I first started my career, I was very UX/UI heavy, which I love. But it wasn’t quite fulfilling me. And so I kind of always knew that eventually there would be more transition to a more creative side of design. And I tried a lot of different things. I was like, “I’m going to be an illustrator.” And I started doing that. I’m like, “Maybe I’m not going to be an illustrator.” And then I really was into type design for a little bit and I was like, “I’m going to be a type designer.” It wasn’t my time for that either. And so I think just as my career went on, I kind of started forming myself to be more of a brand designer, and then just jumping in and trying to get those opportunities. So yeah, I think that’s it. There’s no straightforward answer for it.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I think it’s good that you were able to explore these different facets of design before you landed on something that worked for you. That’s a good thing.

Matese Fields:
Definitely. I think my entire life has been try everything you can. That was kind of what my whole college career was. I think that’s just the way that works best for me it I want to try as much stuff as I can. And then when it sticks, it sticks.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. How would you describe your design process, when you get a new project? What goes through your mind as you’re putting everything together?

Matese Fields:
The minute I get a proposal, or an inquiry or email, thoughts are already running my head. My brain is just going at a thousand miles a minute at all times. So when I first get an email, I kind of already am thinking through what could be. So that’s one part.

I think the biggest part for me when it comes to working on a project, especially independently, is really getting close with the client. So really determining what is right for them. So with that comes a lot of questions. I like to sit down and just dig deep, and know everything that I can about this client, and why this project is happening, and what they want to get out of it, and the origin behind the company, and the name, and everything. So that’s definitely a big part of the process.

And then I would say, this is something I kind of learned from my time at Work & Co, but I like to show often. I’m not a huge wire frame or sketch things out type of guy. I like to just get in and get dirty super quick. And with that comes a lot of bad things quite, frankly. But I think part of my process is being really consistent with showing how I’m getting to the point that I’m getting to.

So at Work & Co, we should work every day. And it wasn’t always the greatest work, and sometimes it didn’t make sense. But it really helps to form that story around how you get to that final product.

I think one part of my process is definitely just showing a lot of work. Even if I don’t think it’s great or could be tweaked, just showing that process and being super transparent about that. So yeah, that’s the early stages of the process, definitely.

Maurice Cherry:
So it’s a lot of information gathering at first, it sounds like.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, definitely. I want to know everything that I can. And Dropbox Paper is my best friend. I just have things jotted down everywhere.

Maurice Cherry:
So do you start off digital, or do you start off analog?

Matese Fields:
Usually digital, honestly. Yeah, I’ve never been a sketcher or anything like that. So yeah, definitely digitally.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. What do you think are the most important elements of a successful brand design?

Matese Fields:
I think honestly, the storytelling forming the story around what the brand is. And that will kind of seep into ultimately, what the look of the brand is going to be. So I’ve always kind of worked I guess, in between a lot of the strategy sides and design sides. So I think the storytelling is definitely the biggest part of the brand. Just a strong idea of what this brand is. And then that will easily flow into what is the actual part of the visual side of it.

Maurice Cherry:
Is it easy to get the client online with that? To let them know that yeah, we are talking about brand. But actually, we’re going to dive more into what story is being told? Because I feel like sometimes, clients just want to see something. They want to see something visual so they can either accept it or reject it. Most likely reject it, but they kind of want to see something.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, for sure. I do think it is sometimes a little difficult getting them on board with that. But I think I’m a big part of, “This is what I did on X project, and this is how I can work with you to get you to that point.” And it might start super dry, and you might not see anything for a little bit. But once we nail it down, it’s going to be really easy to get to that point where the visuals are going to be. And I think that definitely helps with that conversation for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Has there ever been a time where you’ve kind of started out in that beginning process, and then by the time you got to the finished product, it was something completely different?

Matese Fields:
Yeah, I’m trying to think of a specific time. But I think that honestly, it kind of happened a little bit with the Black Campaign School. We kind of knew what it was that we wanted to do and wanted to accomplish. But I think the vision of the end goal was a lot different or the vision of the visuals at the end were a lot different. We ended in this more regal, dark, purple, really showcasing the people and the what behind Black Campaign School. And I think the original was we wanted to be happy, and flowing, and pastels, and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean I think there’s been definitely been a lot of times when that’s happened for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
So I want to learn more about you and you. You’ve alluded a bit already since we were talking about Euchre, about your origins in the Midwest. So let’s go back there. Tell me about where you grew up.

Matese Fields:
Yeah. I’m originally from Columbus, Ohio. I grew up in the city up through seventh grade. Went to Columbus City Schools. And then when I was in seventh grade, we moved to the country of Columbus. We moved to this little town called Lithopolis, which is 30 minutes south of Columbus. And I went to a really tiny high school called Bloom-Carroll, which was in the middle of a cornfield basically. Went from a middle school of 1,500 kids to a high school of 380. That was a huge change in my life. And then I went there all through high school.

And then after high school, went to a small college called Capital University, which is about five minutes from Ohio State. Small, kind of private liberal arts college. And then was there all throughout college and a couple years after college, and then kind of moved around the Midwest. I lived in Chicago for a little bit. I lived in Detroit for a little bit. And yeah, now I’m in Portland. Rainy Portland, Oregon.

Maurice Cherry:
Growing up, were you really creative? Were you drawing and sketching a lot, or something like that?

Matese Fields:
No, I was honestly the complete opposite. I’ve always been really creative, but it was more in the music form. Art was my least favorite class. Yeah, it’s really crazy.

But I always kind of had this weird affinity, now that I think about it, for design. I was really meticulous about how my handwriting looked, how my signature looked, and how my notes were organized. So I always had that sense of, I guess design in a sense, but I just didn’t really know it back then.

I was a big music kid. I started playing violin in elementary school. My parents had me in piano lessons when I was really young. And then when I got to middle school and high school, I switched to playing the clarinet. And I played the bass clarinet all through high school, ended up being really good at it. Had a lot of different musical honors and stuff like that in high school. And then actually went to college for music originally. Back then, I just knew I wanted to be a music teacher. I thought I was going to be this really great musical director, and work in colleges, and universities, and stuff like that. And quickly found out that was not what I wanted to do. But I’ve been really musical my whole life, but I haven’t been into art and design my entire life.

Maurice Cherry:
What turned you off from doing music?

Matese Fields:
I love playing music. That was my therapy when I was a kid. I think there was a couple things. When it came to me learning the intricacies, I wasn’t that interested. I just really wanted to play. I didn’t really want to do all the music theory, and learning piano, and all that.
So I think that was part of it. I think another part was I was not focused in college at all. Honestly, probably should have taken time off after high school before going to college, but my head just wasn’t there. It just kind of was like, “Okay, this is not for you. You can keep playing, but a career in music probably isn’t the best thing.”

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I’m thinking if you were playing bass clarinet, I’m trying to think what you would… You almost have to go into a symphony, I guess. When I think of house bands and stuff like that… I played trombone all through middle school, high school, college throughout my twenties. Every band kind of wants a trombone player, especially if you’re talking a club or something like that. But yeah, I would guess if you’re doing bass clarinet, that kind of limits options and venues for you to play, unless you go completely pro or something.

Matese Fields:
Definitely. And I think it’s actually probably one of the easier… If you’re really good at bass clarinet, I think it’s one of the easier instruments to get a gig with, because there aren’t a lot of people that play that instrument. And so I did during college and a little bit after college, I would play in different symphonic bands and stuff.

It was really fun. My piano teacher in college was a bass clarinet major. And so I think she eventually moved out of Ohio. And when she moved she was like, “I’m going to refer you for all these gigs for bass clarinet.” And so for a while, I did that where I get a call, we have a concert coming up. I’d go to the concert an hour before, run through all the music one time, and then play the concert. It was so much fun. And that was great. Being a teacher just wasn’t going to happen.

Maurice Cherry:
So when you were at Capital University, you majored in marketing. Tell me about what your time was like there.

Matese Fields:
Kind of going back to the idea of me trying everything and seeing if it sticks, that was kind of my entire college career. I originally came in as a music major. Music education major. Did that for I think a year, and half of my sophomore year. And then I was like, “Okay, that’s not working. But also, I don’t know what I want to do. And so I did everything.” I was like, “I’m going to be an accountant.” So I was an accounting major for a little while and then I was like, “I really don’t like math.” And then I was like, “I’m going to do psychology.” And then I was like, “Maybe I want to get into real estate.” I thought about transferring to Ohio State because they had a real estate program. And then eventually I was just like, “All right, just do marketing. It’s easy. I don’t know what I want to do in marketing, but it was easy.”

And so picked up a marketing major, stuck with it. And also like I was saying earlier, I just wasn’t really focused in college and didn’t really necessarily care about the schoolwork. But what I did know I enjoyed was working and doing internships.
So once I got that marketing major, I started doing internship after internship. My friends would always make fun of me because they’re like, “You’re onto the next internship.” And I did, I think 12 in college. All different companies, and just seeing where I fit in at marketing.

And then eventually, I started interning with a company called OhioHealth, which is a healthcare system in Ohio. And I was doing digital marketing there. And the team was basically just me and my boss. So I got to do a lot of different stuff. And for a while, I was really focused on analytics and the web side of things, but on a marketing perspective. So SEO and stuff like that. Yeah.
So then eventually I was there, and this kind of segues of how I got into design. I was working at the internship, been there for probably about a year and a half. And they came to me, my boss came to me and was like, “Hey, we need this webpage redesign.” And I was like, “Okay. I don’t really know what that means, but sure.”

And so took on that project, and it was really cool. I kind of got the lead up all the strategy behind it and how we are doing copy and stuff like that. And we didn’t even have design software, so I did wireframes and PowerPoint.
But it was just a really cool process. And then from there I was like, “Okay, I think this is what I want to do. I really like UX, and the web, and stuff like that.” So that’s how I got into design.

But long story short, didn’t do really well in school. But kind of picked up that marketing major and then found my way through internships rather than school. My goal for school is just get through it. Graduate so your parents are happy. But yeah, just get through it.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I think that speaks to what you alluded to earlier with you were always trying a bunch of new things. And honestly, college is the place to do that. College is all about trying new stuff. There’s all sorts of clubs, and majors, and things like that. So it sounds like that really helped inform all of this, I don’t want to say trial and error. Because I don’t like the misconception that just because something maybe didn’t work out, that you didn’t learn something from it. So each of these explorations moved you closer to where you ultimately are now.

Matese Fields:
For sure. Definitely.

Maurice Cherry:
How do you feel like your marketing knowledge, how does that help you as a designer now?

Matese Fields:
I kind of think about this often, because I always joke, I’m like, “I’ve never used my degree.” But I definitely think it helps with my thought process behind how I approach design. So definitely from that strategy side of things, a lot of stuff we learned in college was around the strategy, and how you get to a point of determining what the [inaudible 00:28:46] is, and building a business plan, and SWOT analysis, and stuff like that. So I think my time at capital in the marketing side of things definitely helps with that aspect of how I approach and think through design. And I’ve always really been interested in the strategy side of things. And I think it’s because of that background that I have.

Maurice Cherry:
So it sounds like it’s not just about making it look pretty. Of course you want it to look pretty, but you also have the know-how behind like, “This is what people are going to gravitate towards. This is what it’s going to be something that catches someone’s eye.”

Matese Fields:
Yep, for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Now you were at StockX for almost two years. What do you remember from that time? What did that time there teach you?

Matese Fields:
Yes, StockX was great. Yeah, it was a really great place to work at for the time I did. When I first started there, I was pretty young in my career. That was my second full-time job that I had. And so it was really cool because the team, when I first started, it was three of us. My boss Jim Renaud, and then Evan Ames who was the senior designer on the team, and then me.

And it was really cool because I think from the moment I got there, they kind of just trusted me to do what I thought was best, which I was kind of looking for at that point in my career. And so yeah, StockX was really great. It was also just a large team. Our creative team, we had in-house photographers, in-house videographers, art directors that are great, still some of my best friends to this day. And so we just got to do a lot of stuff and got to throw a lot of things at the wall and just be like, “This is what StockX could be.”

So yeah, it was really cool. It taught me a lot about just how to build up that story around a design. We had a lot of ideas on what we wanted to do and how StockX could be better. But most of the job was proving that to the higher ups. So we had to do a lot of work around, “Okay, this is how we’re going to present this to the CMO and this is how we’re going to break out these projects.” And so it was really cool, and I think we got a lot accomplished there.

I worked on a team that was in charge of a lot of the front facing parts of StockX. So the homepage, and the product page, and the searching. And that team, I worked with a couple really great project managers, Leah and Lilly. And it was really cool. We just determined the next five years of StockX, and it was really great working together with them.

Maurice Cherry:
And now you also worked for some agencies as well. Earlier, you mentioned Work & Co, which I said this before we recorded, that Work & Co and Revision Path have a interesting relationship. It goes back a few years. I first became acquainted with them in 2018. I met one of their project managers at XOXO. How long have you been in Portland, by the way?

Matese Fields:
It’ll be two years on Sunday actually.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. So you were there I think after XOXO stopped having live events, because they sort of stopped during the pandemic. But XOXO is like this, I guess the best way I could call it is an internet festival. Even saying it like that sounds weird when you think about the internet now. But it’s makers, and designers, and developers, and artists. The year that I went, Lizzo performed. It’s a pretty nice event. I hope they bring it back one day because it’s actually a lot of fun. But that’s how I first got acquainted with Work & Co, learned about they have all these international offices. They’ve even done some pro bono work for the show before. They’ve been a sponsor before.

Not really sure what’s happening with Work & Co. I know they’ve got an office here in Atlanta, which they did ask me to head up. And then that vanished in the thin air, but that’s a whole other story. I’m curious for you though, you’ve worked at Work & Co, you’ve worked at some other agencies. How were those experiences? Because I would imagine that’s probably different from a place like StockX, which I guess is more of an e-commerce startup in a way.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, definitely way different from StockX. The first agency I worked at was called Truth Labs. It was in Chicago. And that agency also is extremely different from how Work & Co works. That place, we kind of worked in silos. So one person owned a project, and we were kind of the project manager in a sense, and also the designer. It was a really great experience. My boss Tyson there was amazing, taught me a lot stuff.

But Work & Co is very different from any place I’ve really worked at. Their whole thing is collaboration, which is something that I hadn’t had a ton of in my career until I got there. So it was really interesting when I got there. I remember when I first started, the first three or four months, I was like, “I have no clue what I’m doing.” My head was in a whirlwind. And I remember I’d be working on stuff. It’s a little challenging when you first start because you do share work every day. So you’re like, “I want to share the best stuff every day.” And then you just kind of get in your head, and things never really turn out the way you want them to.

I remember working on a project and my boss Alex was like, “We need to talk. What is happening?” And I was just, “I don’t really know what’s happening here. I don’t know what’s going on,” blah, blah, blah. And it wasn’t because of the company, it was just so different. We just had a really long chat and she was just kind of like, “We’re not expecting you to be perfect every day. You just got to kind of show up on your own pace. Obviously we want you to do the work. Don’t feel that pressure to have to be perfect, and everything has to be whatever.”

So it was just like I really had to change my thought process around design. And I think for me, my brain is always going. And so that kind of translates into how I think about my work, and how it first comes on a paper. It’s just once again, me throwing things out there, and seeing what sticks. And working at Work & Co, I really had to simplify my thought process to fit into their mold of how they work, which is interesting.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay, you got to unpack that interesting now. You got to unpack that a little bit.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, I mean Work & Co does fantastic work. Everyone I work there with is so talented and literally every day I’d be like, “How are you doing this?” They work how they work, and that is it. There is no changing their process. You just have to assimilate into that process. And I think that’s where some of the friction comes from.

It works really well, and they do really great stuff. So I guess in a sense it’s like, who am I to change that? So I fell into that, and it was great. I did one of the biggest and best projects in my career there for the PGA TOUR. But yeah, it’s just really different. You just got to fall in and trust the process there. And for me that was hard to do, and I think is what led me to moving towards being independent.

Maurice Cherry:
Are all agencies like that? I can’t say all because you haven’t worked for all agencies, but you’ve worked for different types of agencies. Is this an agency thing, this opinionated way of working? Or was that just unique to them?

Matese Fields:
Honestly, I would say it’s somewhat unique to them. I do think when I was at Truth Labs, there was a lot more flexibility in how we wanted to structure the project. We worked in weekly sprints, but it was kind of up to you to determine what would be in that sprint, and how you would go about it, and how you present it to the client. Whereas Work & Co’s like, “Okay, we’re meeting every day. You’re sharing work every day.” You’re not sharing work to the client every day, but you’re sharing work to the overall team every day. Your reviews what the clients are on this day, this day. We are showing these three directions only. The way we’re presenting them is very structured. I think it’s fairly unique to them. I’ve freelanced for a lot of agencies also, and I think I’ve always had a little bit more flexibility in how to structure things.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s very interesting that you said that’s what pushed you to becoming independent. Sometimes you have to be in a, we’ll say less than ideal work situation. We’ll say that. Sometimes, you have to be in that situation to know what you don’t want.

And this also plays into what you’ve mentioned earlier with trying new things. This was another new thing that you tried. Wasn’t necessarily for you. But it’s again, pushing you closer to the ideal experience that you want to have, which I’m guessing right now is you being independent.

Matese Fields:
Definitely. I really enjoy my time at Work & Co, and I think it was definitely necessary for my career. I learned so much in the year and a half I was there. Honestly crazy. The process does work, if you’re really willing to adapt to that and fall into that. It’ll work great.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s different. Not for you.

Matese Fields:
And they are very product heavy too. And while I love product work, I definitely did want to focus more on brand. That was also part of it for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Got you. Speaking of brands, what trends in brand design do you think are going to be important in the coming years? I feel like we have so much with technology, and AI, and machine learning, and all this stuff. That it seems like creativity in a way, is pushing to be automated. So from your perspective, what do you think the future of brand design’s going to look like?

Matese Fields:
It’s crazy. It’s hard to keep up with all this stuff. I don’t know. I’m not falling into the automation craze yet. I mean, you’ve seen the pictures where it’s like, “The generated AI photos,” and everyone has six and seven fingers on a hand. There’s work to be done to push us out.

I think Gen Z is going to define a lot of what we see in the future. It seems like they’re kind of running the world right now, with influencing, and TikTok, and all that stuff. So I think a lot of brands are going to have to pivot to fall in line with that. Obviously, it depends on the brand if you’re doing B2B stuff that it doesn’t necessarily matter as much. But I think that’s going to be definitely big. You’ve already kind of seen it. Somebody was telling me about, they got rid of Sierra Mist and changed it to some brand. I don’t even remember what the name is, but-

Maurice Cherry:
Starry.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, Starry. To make it more popular for Gen Z. I think that’s a big thing. I think minimalism. It’s already kind of coming back, or it’s already prevalent a lot. But I think minimalism and really being direct with your brand is going to be really big. And I think a lot of that is rooted in typography, which I love. So yeah, I think that’s going to be big. But yeah, I think as we move forward, it’s definitely going to be a lot around how you position yourself in how your brand is showing up to the world. And it kind of goes back into the strategy, and the copy, and the brand voice. That’s going to be really big.

Maurice Cherry:
I think we’re going to start seeing less virtual experiences, and more in-person experiences. And when I say that, I mean of course, I’d say over the past two years or so, companies were starting to dip their toe into the metaverse. And they’re like, “We’re making these virtual campuses and all,” all this stuff that nobody was going to. Because it costs $300 to get Meta Quest 2 to join this thing, and you don’t have any legs, and there’s only 12 people in here. No one was really going for that.

But I saw brands, I know Taco Bell did this. Where they had a Taco Bell room, a hotel room. And you could I guess spend the night in the room, and it would be all decked out in… It’s like a 360 brand experience where Taco Bell’s everywhere. You get Taco Bell room service. All this sort of stuff.

I see that sort of stuff I think coming more and more. I mean I think that kind of plays to social media and brands and influencers because they’d probably be the ones that would like all that kind of gaudy stuff. But I see brands starting to create more of these in-person things, especially as folks start to get back out into the world more. These past few years, we’ve all been in the house, on Zoom, on Teams, on Google Meet, etc. Now people want to get out, but they want to still, I think, be able to do it safely. And I think companies will start to figure out maybe how they can have these sorts of 360 type of experiences that people will gravitate towards.

Matese Fields:
Definitely. I totally agree with that. You’re definitely seeing it everywhere. I know in Columbus, it’s been there for a while. But there’s a brewery BrewDog in Columbus. And they have a hotel like that too. It’s like you can take a bath in beer.

Maurice Cherry:
What?!

Matese Fields:
Just a bunch of crazy stuff. I don’t know if that’s actually true, but I know the hotel room is very geared towards people who are very heavily into brewing, and the process of beer, and stuff like that.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, bath and beer, that doesn’t sound good. But I see why people would do it for the novelty.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, who knows. Might be good for your skin or something.

Maurice Cherry:
It could be. It could be. What advice would you give to someone who wants to start out in brand design? What would you tell them? Resources or anything like that?

Matese Fields:
I think throw as much as you can out there and just see what happens. I definitely think it’s easy to get caught up finding inspiration through other brands and media forms. Like Dribbble, or Pinterest, or whatever. But I think a big part of design is getting out into the world, and finding inspiration by things that are off your screen. So I think that’s definitely a big thing.

I would say read a lot. I have so much to learn from an art history perspective, because I never had that design school education. So I’ve been really just trying to learn more about that. So definitely, learning more about the roots and the origins. I think those would be my biggest things.

I never really had a dedicated mentor. But I think that finding someone who you can come back to, and who will be honest with you, and really keep it real with you is definitely important as well. And learn typography. I think that’s huge. Really learn how to use type. It’s big.

Maurice Cherry:
How do you make time for joy these days?

Matese Fields:
I love sports. I play a lot of basketball. I have been getting back into weightlifting, so I’ve been doing that a lot recently. I’ve been getting back into playing golf. I used to play with my dad a lot when I was younger. So trying to get back into that. I love reality TV, because it is easy to watch, and you don’t have to be invested in it. So I watch a lot of reality TV. I’ve always watched a ton of reality TV.

I have a ton of plants. Really big into plant life, taking care of plants. And I am really big into things. Anyone who knows me knows I just have a bunch of stuff. My mom, when I was a kid, she would always make fun of me. She’s like, “You’re a pack rat. You don’t throw anything out. You just keep everything.”

And so I have a lot of things. I like to go vintage and antique shopping a lot. So I’m constantly rearranging the house or rearranging my room, and just trying to find ways to use all these things that I have. Yeah, that’s probably the biggest. Play a lot of video games, play a lot of Euchre. I’m always busy. I just try to stay busy at all times.

Maurice Cherry:
What video games are you playing?

Matese Fields:
Recently, I just been playing Call of Duty and 2K, which I know is kind of boring. But I grew up, I really loved RPGs and those open world games when I was younger. So sometimes I’ll fall deep into that.

I’ve been playing Horizon Forbidden West a little bit. I’ve played Uncharted for probably 10 times. It’s like my favorite game ever. I used to be really big in Assassin’s Creed, Red Dead Redemption, stuff like that. I’ve been trying to get back into Last of Us, but that game makes me mad. It frustrates me. I might just have to watch the show and not-

Maurice Cherry:
I was going to say, I feel like that’s popular right now because of the show. People are trying to get back into the game.

Matese Fields:
Yeah. So yeah, I played halfway through and then I was just like, “I can’t do this anymore.”

Maurice Cherry:
So earlier you said when you were giving your advice for people that wanted to get into brand design, you said that they should seek motivation in other things. So what are the things that keep you motivated and inspired?

Matese Fields:
Honestly, it sounds cliché. But everything, honestly. My mind is always going. I’m always thinking about something. Whether it’s something I’m working on or something that could be. So I’ll get random inspiration from anything. The other day, I was driving through Portland, and I saw street sign. It sparked something for the Euchre league that I was doing.

So I definitely draw inspiration from being out in the world. But I would say to get more specific, I get a lot of inspiration from music artists and musicians. I’ve really been into street wear lately. So a lot of different street wear designers. Mainly Joe Freshgoods. He’s such a huge inspiration to me, mainly because he does whatever he wants. But there’s always this story behind why he’s doing something, which I think is super inspirational. He just does great stuff, and it’s always for the community and for other people.

So he’s a big inspiration. I would say I get a lot of inspiration from people who just build things. It doesn’t necessarily have to be design related. But Mike Smith from Smith & Diction, everything he does is incredible. The way he talks about his work is really great. People from Lichen. They’re a company in New York, and they do a lot of stuff with furniture and physical items. I think their story is super great.

My friend Alex Tan, he started a studio called Mouthwash. I’ve actually known Alex. We haven’t talked in a while, but I’ve known him since middle school. But he’s doing really great stuff. He’s always been super… I remember in college, we went to the same college. We went to the same church in high school. I remember in college we’d just be talking and everything he’d say, I’m like, “You don’t need to be here. Go do your own thing.” He’s just so smart.

So I think he’s doing really great stuff. Ryan Putnam also. He’s a really great fine artist. I think his story’s really cool of how he does things independently, on his own schedule. So yeah, I mean anything and everyone for sure, I would say.

Maurice Cherry:
Keeping it real Midwest with Joe Freshgoods.

Matese Fields:
Yeah. For my Chicago Days.

Maurice Cherry:
And Black. Well, I guess people know he’s a Black designer. I don’t know if that’s totally evident from the name, but yeah.

Matese Fields:
Definitely. Like the Lichen, they’re both Black designers. Definitely pulling inspiration from everything Black too, I would say, for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Do you have a dream project that you’d love to do one day?

Matese Fields:
Yeah. So I think in the future, I want to do more things. More physical and more designing spaces. That’s kind of where I see my career going. So I would love to do an exhibit at a museum. I think that would be awesome. Somewhere where I could do digital design, but also design the space and the physical aspects around it too.

I’ve always had a weird affinity for doing a large wayfinding project. It sounds boring when you say it. But I think there’s something beautiful in directions, and telling people where to go, and helping people find their way. So sounds weird, but definitely something like that too. That would be really cool.

Maurice Cherry:
That doesn’t sound weird. I mean, our icon is a wayfinding sign. So it doesn’t sound weird at all.

Matese Fields:
For sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work do you want to be doing?

Matese Fields:
This is what I think about every day now, I feel like. So part of the reason 2022 was a really rough year is because I felt I had lost myself a little bit. I didn’t really know.

I guess I put a lot of purpose of my life into my work. So when I got laid off from my job, I was kind of like, “What do I do now?” For a while I was like, “Maybe I shouldn’t do design.” I felt like I was just there. There was nothing really pushing me. 2022 was a big year of self-reflection, and what I really want to do. And when I finally took the leap and was like, “Okay, I’m going to be independent. We’re going to make this work.” I think that’s when this, “What is the future going to be?” Became a little bit more real.

In the future, I see myself doing less design actually. I think the goal is to make design a part-time type of thing, where I can be really specific about projects I want to take on, and just really specific about what I do, and how I do it, and what I want to do.

And then the other half of that being, I have this vision of making a space. And with that, I haven’t thought of a name. I haven’t thought of any of that. But combined with my love of people, I just love being around people. I love helping people. I love bringing people together. So there’s a love for that. There’s a love for collecting and having things. I do have a lot of things, but everything kind of has a story behind it of why I love it, and why it’s in my collection. So there’s the love for people. There’s a love for things. And then there’s also a love for education.

And so I didn’t do well in college, and I think it was just because I didn’t have meaning behind why I was in school. I was just there, because I felt like it was something I should do, and I was making my parents proud and stuff like that.

But there’s non-traditional ways to learn what you want to do and who you want to be. And specifically in design, I think I was saying before we got on, us as Black people aren’t really taught that you can be successful in the arts, or in design, even in music, unless you’re a huge artist. So I think part of that is me teaching Black people that you can make money doing whatever you want, and you can specifically make money, be successful, be fulfilled in design.

So with all that said, I would love to create a space that could one part be my studio, where I’m doing that part-time design work, and then the other half being a maker space/art gallery/vintage shop/gathering space. And then it’d all be centered around blackness, and education, and storytelling, and community. It is a lot, but that’s sort of where my head is at currently.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I think that’s super aspirational to make a center for all that positive blackness. I don’t know how it would go in Portland, but I think it’s a good idea. I think it’s a good idea to have something like that.

Matese Fields:
I’ve had the same thought. At first I was like, “I need to move back to Detroit to do this.” And I think Detroit would be a great city for something to happen. I was kind of having these ideas when I was in Detroit. But I’ve been talking to a lot of people in Portland. I think it would actually be something that would be positive for the Black culture in Portland. It’s very white here. Everyone knows it. And when I first moved here, I was very thrown back. And even to me as someone who was the only Black person in my high school, I was like, “What is happening?” And I remember talking to people and being like, “I don’t know if I’m loving it here. I just moved from the Blackest city in America to here.” Everyone I was talking to, they were like, “Well, if you move, then it is going to continue being the whitest city.” So it’s like I think there’s a need for that space to be in Portland.

I think Portland’s a great city. They embrace art, and they embrace design and community. But you go to all these different spaces, and the same person is everything looks the same. The people who own it are the same. That’s not a slight to anyone, but the music is the same. And so I think it’s something that could definitely be beneficial for Portland. We’ll see. I’m pretty nomadic though. I like to move around, so I’m like…

Maurice Cherry:
I mean look, another city something like that could do really good in, Atlanta.

Matese Fields:
I need to go to Atlanta more honestly. When I first kind of started my career, the first year of my career was also freelancing. And I was doing a project for a company in Atlanta called Liaison Technologies, and they’re based in Alpharetta. So I would go to Atlanta every so often, but I haven’t been since probably 2016. So yeah, I would love to go back, for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. Well just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find more information about you, about your work and everything? Where can they find that online?

Matese Fields:
Yeah. The best place would probably be my Instagram. It’s @tesecreates. T-E-S-E creates. There, you can find the link to my portfolio. And I post most of my design stuff on there. My website’s a little bit of a mess right now, but that’s also tesecreates.com. So yeah, those would probably be the two best ways.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well, Matese Fields, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I think the one thing that I got from your story that I think people listening should take with them is that it’s okay to try a lot of different things. I mean, design is a very vast field. It’s okay to try different things until you find what it is that works for you.

I mean, when I got into design 20 something years ago, there weren’t that many paths that you could go. And now, I think even with all the different places you can go, people still just funnel into, “I’m only going to do UX. I’m only going to do product.” And there’s so much more out there. And I think what your story really illustrates is that it’s possible to make a living as a designer, and that you just have to try different things until you find what it is that works for you. Which it sounds like you definitely have made happen. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Matese Fields:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s been great chatting with you for sure.

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Ron Bronson

If you’ve had any sort of interaction with government services on the Web, particularly at the national level, there’s a pretty good chance your experience in some form was designed or conceived by this week’s guest — the one and only Ron Bronson.

Longtime fans will remember Ron’s first appearance on the podcast seven years ago, and our conversation starts off with a quick recap of what lessons he’s learned over the past year. From here, we talk about his career shift from education to civic tech, the emergence of consequence design, and even a Finnish sport akin to baseball known as pesäpallo. Ron’s story is a testament to the power of reinvention, and hopefully it convinces you that whatever it is you’re imagining, it’s possible!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Ron Bronson:
Hi. It’s Ron Bronson. I’m based in Portland, Oregon and I’m a design director in civic tech in the government.

Maurice Cherry:
How has 2021 been for you so far?

Ron Bronson:
Interesting. Obviously, we’re all coming out of COVID slowly. So that’s obviously been a thing. And ascending to this role, I’ve been a manager of a team of seven before and now I’ve got over 30 direct reports, obviously some managers who report to me, but there’s the whole department now. So that is definitely a different set of expectations and challenges. Trying to work on a book, trying to stay involved. So 2021 is interesting to try to remap all the stuff that you lost from being in the house for a whole year.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. What lessons did you learn in this past year? When you look back, how do you think you’ve changed?

Ron Bronson:
Wow. I think momentum doesn’t necessarily have to stop. I thought last year was, in my mind, when it started and things started to shut down, I was like, “[inaudible 00:03:38] a wasted year,” all the stuff I had mapped out for myself, career-wise, thinking about work, and it turned out that wasn’t true. Opportunities still came and I was still able to do things and write stuff and read stuff and speak at events, obviously virtually.

Ron Bronson:
So that was interesting to me and surprised me, but I think maybe I got a better sense of the things that motivated me a little bit. I don’t know that I necessarily … Like I said, I was operating with my outlets … not autopilot, but kind of just doing stuff and taking for granted that every day was going to be, “This is what you do. You go to these events and you go to nonprofits or you go to work and you see your friends,” until have all that taken away and realize that some of those things fueled you, that you liked doing that stuff or it inspired you in some way. To not have that is crystallizing. It also means you appreciate it more. So it taught me a lot about myself. Maybe the times when somebody calls and says, “Oh, let’s hang out,” and I’m like, “No,” now I’m probably like, “Hey, yeah. We should hang out. Let’s do it.” So it’s a big lesson for me.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It’s been interesting how … I’ve noticed this trend among friends of mine, even from guests that have been on the show. I feel like we’re at this point where everyone is reevaluating what their next step is. We’ve been in the house or in some form of lockdown or restriction over the past year and a half and, now that things are starting to open up again, everyone’s like, “Well, let me think about what I want this next thing to be. Do I still want to go ahead in the same manner that I have with work or with my schedule or do I want to change things?” I’m seeing that everywhere now, which I guess is a good thing.

Ron Bronson:
I think so. I think it’s cool that … not cool, but I think it’s important to have these conversations because we weren’t really able to take stock of them before, been able to see the world for what it was maybe a little bit.

Maurice Cherry:
Right. Now, I know you can’t talk directly about the work that you’re doing because it is a government agency, but can you give just a broad overview about the work that you do?

Ron Bronson:
I think, at the core of the work I’ve been doing, for years, really, even before I became [inaudible 00:05:49] in federal service and was working in state government, is trying to identify problem spaces that exist, working collaboratively with teams to identify problem spaces, big problems, small problems, murky problems, and trying to operationalize a way out of those problems and doing that in a way that’s sustainable.

Ron Bronson:
It’s one thing to go into a place and say, “I’m going to help you solve this,” and then solve it and leave. It’s like, when you break something and you fix it, you don’t know how they fixed it. So now they’re gone, so you’ve got to call them every time, instead of doing it where you’re like, “You’re going to help us. You’re going to work with us. You’re going to be our eyes and ears [inaudible 00:06:26]. You’re going to be part of the team that helps us figure this out.” And the way, you know how we did it so that, when we’re gone, you can do it. And not only can you do it, you could teach other people to do it, too. And so I think, at its core, that’s the work that I do, that we do, and it’s pretty rewarding. I wouldn’t say it’s easy, but it’s definitely rewarding.

Maurice Cherry:
What makes it rewarding?

Ron Bronson:
I think it’s fun to see a murky situation that doesn’t necessarily have an explicit answer. And maybe a thing I learned from, say, when I started to now, is where I identified a problem, like, “Oh, I know exactly what the problem is here. Do a little research and we’ll just confirm what I knew the problem was. You get on this team and you work together to answer … Do some [inaudible 00:07:07] research, talk to some users or stakeholders and get some answers.” It turns out, not only were you wrong, but what they asked you to do was maybe the wrong [inaudible 00:07:16] problems. Now you need to revisit it or you got a prototype of a thing or idea and you talk to the people who actually use the thing and they say, “No, no, no. You’re missing the point. What you actually need it something completely different,” and now you’ve got to revisit and reboot and rethink.

Ron Bronson:
And so it’s fun to go through that, not initially. What’s fun about it is, if you can go through that and you do it in this way that’s thoughtful and you bring [inaudible 00:07:39], bring the people along, then at the end of it, the end result of what you get is more sustainable and it’s fun to see the fruits of that labor. I know, gosh, you build things. Some people who build stuff … It’s one thing when you build a thing and you’ve got to do all the work yourself or your work on a team and then, when you go away, it collapses, but it’s fun, even at my non … I started Indianapolis Design Week and then, when I left, somebody else took it over.

Ron Bronson:
It’s cool when you can see a thing that you started, somebody else takes it over and they put their own spin on it. And that’s sustainable and it has a legacy. And so to have that in my professional work, as well, is super rewarding. Even if it’s, like I said, a longer process to get there, it takes a long time, it’s nebulous, the answers aren’t as clear, that’s super fun.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I like that part about you saying that it’s sustainable because I think, certainly if you’re a designer or a developer at … I’m just naming companies here, like a Dropbox or something like that … No shade to Dropbox. I love Dropbox, but if you’re at a product-based company, the work that you do may really not even be seen. It can easily be overwritten. It’s kind of ephemeral. And also, you don’t really know if your service is going to be around in the next five years, 10 years or whatever, whereas the work that you’re doing, you know that it has a home, almost.

Ron Bronson:
Exactly. 100%. Yep. And I think that … You talk about public sector, working [inaudible 00:09:05] or working in, say, civic tech where maybe you’re adjacent or something. By being able to do work that you know … Again, it may also be [inaudible 00:09:12] and no one will see it, but at least you know, at the end of the day, who you’re working for, either for the people in front or the folk behind the scenes [inaudible 00:09:20] people in the front. And I think that’s a cool cycle of life to have.

Maurice Cherry:
What’s a typical day like for you?

Ron Bronson:
It varies. It varies dramatically. And it’s varied, obviously, when you talk about being in sales, for instance, leadership in this situation versus maybe when I was [inaudible 00:09:35] contributor or even a couple years ago when I’m working at, say, local or state situations, but I’d say that [inaudible 00:09:41] we have a lot of meetings, obviously, but it’s a lot of content switching. So there’s meetings, obviously, to deal with just the things you would deal with in any kind of leadership role. There’s also kinds of some project-related stuff that happens, as well. In my case, right now, lots of strategy and trying to figure out how to build resiliency into teams and supporting people where they’re at, but it’s really variable. Other than, say, there’s a lot of meetings, I don’t think any two days are alike.

Ron Bronson:
The content of each day is very different because it’s so responsive to what’s happening, not only in the world, but individually or organizationally or whatever. So it can be really very variable, which is cool. Obviously, if you’re a control freak, not that I am, but maybe a little bit, it can be a little discombobulating because sometimes you don’t know what’s coming, like, “Oh, what’s going to happen a month from now?” I don’t know. It could be anything, but as long as you can relish in and embrace that sort of mystery, it’s kind of fun.

Maurice Cherry:
How have your responsibilities changed over the years? I guess, aside from going up to the ranks to where you’re at as a director, but how have your responsibilities really changed since you’ve been there?

Ron Bronson:
The scope and the size. Actually, when you talked to me years ago, I was a director then, too, but I had [inaudible 00:10:57] only a few direct reports and I was leading statewide strategy, but it was a different sort of … scale was different and also the purview is different, the responsibilities are different. And then I go to a smaller government and, obviously, I don’t have any of that kind of responsibility, more principle designer kind of work.

Ron Bronson:
And then, over the last couple of years, going from IC and doing more information architecture and content strategy work, but [inaudible 00:11:19] more strategic work, in general, to leading projects to staffing people to projects to, again, now just trying to shape an entire … figuring out how you move a team forward in an industry that wasn’t really a thing, designers working in the public sector, much less entire teams. Maybe it’s one or two people, okay. We’ve always been around, but to have the scale of, let’s say, a small agency of design type people and [inaudible 00:11:49] definitely alike. It’s a lot of making things from scratch, trying to invent it as you sort of fly the plane as you build it kind of thing.

Ron Bronson:
So for me, I think the work is similar. I think I’m doing similar kinds of things, a lot of similar kind of thinking. I think it’s just, over the years, playing a video game and going to different levels and taking the coins you get from level three and now you use them at level six because you’ve got a lot more coins in your pocket or you got [Selixir 00:12:14] on level four and you put that in you and now you’re on level eight and you’re like, “Oh, I’m ready. I got that. That wizard gave me that thing.” I mean, it’s a funny metaphor, but that’s kind of what it is. I don’t feel like it’s that different. It’s just that the other experiences prepared you for, A, more meetings and it prepared you for nebulous things and having to answer questions that are not …

Ron Bronson:
Also, you get to choose sometimes the things that you get to decide. You’re working with other people, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with you, at a certain point for certain things. And that’s weirder than when you’re … I joked before I did this with, oh, well, it was really cool being the person that you could talk to people about the work and the problems, but it’s like watching your favorite sports team on TV and being like, “If I was the general manager, I would do this, this, and this,” and then now you’re the general manager of the baseball team. Turns out there were things you didn’t know about the problem space he was in. You didn’t know that the budget was here or you need to do this or do that. So that metaphor, I think, matches very well to my existence now, where it’s the things you just don’t know until you’re in the seat and you’re like, “Oh, maybe I was wrong about that other lens I had before.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Has it changed, I guess now with things being more remote? You’ve always been remote in that role. Right?

Ron Bronson:
I’ve always been remote. So for me, no, it has not changed anything about anything. I think the scope of the work is different, maybe a little bit, but no, it’s the same. Nothing changed in that way at all, which is great. I mean, I’d say this, that across government, across public sector, civic tech, whatever, it was definitely a sort of … especially when you get down to state and local levels, certainly a resistance to remote work to this kind of thing for a bevy of reasons. I know when I worked in local government, we had a heck of a time trying to get even a day where you could work remote. Well, they had to change that last year [inaudible 00:13:56]. Right?

Ron Bronson:
And so I think that, now, you deal with people and you see this and now people have a level of … it’s not savvy, but they certainly have more experience with it now. So the resistance they used to have isn’t there like it used to be because folks have had to adapt to this new reality. And so I think that takeaway has been great because it was such a difficult thing before. I think, again, you get down to these lower levels or certain, whatever, agencies, whoever [inaudible 00:14:23] maybe. I don’t know. So that part has been, I think, great to see, is just people’s comfort level with it changed in ways that you never saw before.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Do you think that an interest in civic design has changed over the years?

Ron Bronson:
Yeah. I mean, I was actually talking to a friend about this, a friend who left the country for awhile and wants to come back to the country and was like, “What should I do?” And I’m like, “See, when you left, it was really just a few things you could do, a few places you could go, [inaudible 00:14:49] digital service or an ATNF or something or places like Code For America.” [inaudible 00:14:55] New York City, but you didn’t have the options.

Ron Bronson:
Now, there’s tons of cities that have these digital service teams, different states like Colorado that have them now. Local governments are starting these. San Francisco has their own teams. There are lots of private sector companies, of course, that are doing this that built in very similar models that use a lot of the same tenents. And so I think that, yeah, there’s a ton of opportunity for people now to be able to get involved in using their skills for good and for helping move things forward and helping accelerate conversations that maybe were harder before. You wouldn’t have gone to work for the IT department in your local town before. You wouldn’t have wanted to do that, but now maybe you would because of all the different ways that civic tech conversation has elevated and proliferated.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve had a few service designers and designers working in government on the show over the past few years. And I think, certainly, all of us have seen how design and technology can have a profound effect on how people process information. I think we can clearly look at the last five years and see how that has been the case.

Ron Bronson:
Right.

Maurice Cherry:
If you had to give a pitch to say, I don’t know, current designers and developers now about going into civic tech, what would that look like?

Ron Bronson:
So I think people [inaudible 00:16:14] to a lot of the other things that I work on, personally. It’s one thing to be upset about systems and structures and processes and things not working well. It’s another thing to actually try to figure out how you can not only leverage your skills to make things better, but to be on the inside, at least to see … You’re not going to do it forever, but at least to see how it operates, see where the problems are, see where the issues are, see how you can solve those. Don’t just complain about the problems. How do we fix some of the problems? And you’re not going to fix all of them, but you can fix some.

Ron Bronson:
And also it’s a nice proving ground for being able to leverage … especially people who are hybrids. You’re an interaction designer who likes research or you’re a service designer, but turns out you’re really good at product design. To be able to leverage your content strategist who also does PM stuff, to leverage those sort of skills because, in a lot of [inaudible 00:17:04], especially the lower you get down in government, they’re not going to have these massive agile teams. So you’re going to deploy those multiple skillsets. I did that when I was in local government. I really liked it, personally, because it gave me a chance to sharpen some skills. My [inaudible 00:17:17] skills got way better, being in that situation, because they had to get that way. Maybe in a bigger place, that simply would never happen.

Ron Bronson:
So I think my pitch to people who are considering this kind of work is that, if you care about community, you care about your technologists who cares about the work, it’s good way for you to give back and be involved, but also to grow skills that’ll serve you well moving forward, beyond where you are in your career right now.

Maurice Cherry:
We’re all digital citizens, in some way.

Ron Bronson:
Agreed. 100%. Yep. That’s it.

Maurice Cherry:
Actually, that even, in some way, we totally are all digital citizens. With social media and such, you really can’t escape it.

Ron Bronson:
So true, so true.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, when you and I first spoke back in 2014, and you’ve alluded to this earlier just now, you were in Kentucky, I believe. What do you remember from working back during that time?

Ron Bronson:
That job was [inaudible 00:18:08] all I want. That job was the state headquarters for the community college system. And so it was higher ed, but it really wasn’t. And actually, that was the first job that I’d had that wasn’t on a campus, at that time. So for me, it was a little weird at first to be in this [inaudible 00:18:25] higher ed, but what it really was was a government job. You’re a bureaucrat and you’re making policy and you go to 16 different colleges and you’re setting digital strategy for the entire state and working with an internal team. A lot of the processes and things didn’t really exist before we built them, when I had that job.

Ron Bronson:
So it’s why I’m here, frankly, in many ways, even though I don’t know that that was my favorite job, but it gave me a great glimpse and lens of how to manage a big team. How do you manage people who don’t report to you, but you still set policy for them and your decision impact your work? I had to learn that and develop that skill over time. How to develop training for a massive internal team, public-facing stuff. So it was a great trial by fire. People [inaudible 00:19:11] what you see on Twitter a lot. Folks will say, “Oh, if you’re qualified for a job, but you’re not sure and you’re nervous, apply anyway because you might learn something.” Well, that job is [inaudible 00:19:21], but you feel a little in over your head, a little bit.

Ron Bronson:
I wouldn’t recommend that all the time, but in that situation, the pros for me in terms of what those lessons taught me after … And a lot of them were bad lessons. It was people-related lessons, but still … So I remember that time very vividly. I’m not going to get into all of it, but y’all have to DM me and I’ll tell you all the dirt.

Ron Bronson:
But any case, the positives of that were the lessons that I learned really allowed me, moving forward, to be a much more incisive designer, a much more compassionate leader, better communicating, to own what I know. So yes, there were some really great lessons from that time that have served me well, even to this day.

Maurice Cherry:
And now, you first entered into civic designer just right after you left Kentucky, went to Indiana.

Ron Bronson:
Right.

Maurice Cherry:
You were principal service designer for the City of Bloomington, Indiana.

Ron Bronson:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Was it a big shift going from education to now civic design work?

Ron Bronson:
It wasn’t, partially for two reasons; one because, again, that job in Kentucky was pretty much a state job. I mean, it was state related. So everything we did was bureaucrat-level state stuff. That job and my job now, they’re different, but it was a lot of the same kinds of economies of scale. So that prepared me pretty well for being sort of in a faceless situation. Local government was fun. I really enjoyed it, especially at a sub-100,000 size city level. In a big city, it’d be probably similar to what I do, but in a city where [inaudible 00:20:56] 80,000 people, folks have problems with the website, they print a thing out and bring it to City Hall and say, “Ah, I went to this page. It didn’t work. Can you fix it right now?”

Ron Bronson:
I really enjoyed that. I thought that was really cool. You go to parties and folks tell you that they found a thing. So much of the work that we do as technologists in any part of the space that you’re doing, and I’m being very broad about this, you don’t really get to … You interact with users in user interviews or stakeholder things, but you’re not dealing with your users in this very retail way. The same ways that, if a thing breaks, I can go take it back to the store.

Ron Bronson:
You can’t do that with a website, but in local government in a city of that size with the team that we had … That was an amazing team. I want to shout out Bloomington, Indiana [inaudible 00:21:37] open source development team. All the stuff they had built was in-house. We transitioned the site from our in-house CMS that we had to Drupal. So it was a whole process, multiple things that went on there, but it was really, really cool, actually, to get to do that.

Ron Bronson:
So no, the transition wasn’t weird. I think the hard part for me was going from being director and doing a lot more leadership stuff to going back to being hands on. I did that on purpose. It was a deliberate decision for me to … I was in an IT shop, so doing a lot more front-end development and doing design and building the design system initially, but also doing a lot of service design stuff. I did all the service design. They never had a service designer before.

Ron Bronson:
All the user research … [inaudible 00:22:20] was a collaborative effort with some other folks, but leading that UX design, writing tons of content, so wearing a ton of hats, but I wanted that experience. I missed it. For me, it was really great to get to do that while also doing strategy, while also shipping an actual, physical thing. They needed a new site app. It had been 10 years old and we shipped it. So I loved it.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, through the work that you’ve done, there’s this phrase that you’ve coined I’ve seen come up called consequence design. Can you talk about how you came to that idea and what exactly does consequence design entail?

Ron Bronson:
I used to always joke with anybody who asked me about consequence … I feel like I have a better answer now, but I feel like every interview I do about this [inaudible 00:23:00] changes. So you just [inaudible 00:23:02] all us together at some point. We’re going to figure this out together, as a community. But really, what it is is … I feel like consequence design is really born out of a lot of the conversations that are happening right now around … I think there are several conversations. There’s some that are around any patterns or dark patterns, for instance, which I don’t like saying, but people know what I’m talking about when I say it, so I just say it, or [inaudible 00:23:26] some of the hostile patterns that you see online.

Ron Bronson:
And I feel like a lot of these conversations, well, one, they’re not calling a spade a spade. We already have words for what deception is. We already know what … something that’s fraud, but we don’t want to call it that. So instead, we call it, “Ooh, it’s a dog pattern.” No, this website is trying to scam your grandmother. That’s a scam and we should call it what it is. It’s fraud. We should call it what it is.

Ron Bronson:
But through doing talks about these topics over the previous couple of years all over the world, people would ask me, “Okay. Well, what do I do about it? I’m just a junior designer at a bank. What am I supposed to do about this? How do I fix it?” And so I felt like all the conversations that we have around ethics and ethical design and so forth is a philosophy washout. I didn’t like those conversations because, one, they triggered me to thinking about [Hagel 00:24:18] and not doing great in philosophy. And I’m being funny right now, but also … which is true. I didn’t do great at that.

Ron Bronson:
But the other reason I don’t like it is because it takes the agency out of the hands of individuals. Yes, you’re not going to fix certain structures and systems, but there are things that you can do, that you can impact at your level or have a conversation about with your colleagues and eventually impact through glacial change, through iterative change. So I wanted a term that was, how do we take the areas [inaudible 00:24:48] policy, service design, the user experience, how do we merge these things together and how do we take real-world experiences, things like kiosks in public spaces that have really terrible UIs? That’s not divorced from the work that you and I do every day, but people act like it is, how we foist these experiences on people.

Ron Bronson:
And so I wanted to bring all that together to have an industry-wide [inaudible 00:25:12], practitioner-wide conversation around, “Let’s identify these are problems and let’s talk about how we might be able to fix some of these things.” First, we need to identify that they’re actually problems. And I didn’t just want to keep talking about the individual pieces of it. I wanted to be able to have a way to encapsulate it. And that’s how I got to consequence design as an idea. It’s still very fuzzy. The book is not out, will not be out until next year, but I’m trying to get there.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, that’s right. You are writing a book. I saw online-

Ron Bronson:
[crosstalk 00:25:41] very slowly.

Maurice Cherry:
I saw parts of what you’ve been putting together online and we’ll link to that in the show notes so people can take a look at that, but it’s not your first book that you’ve written. You wrote a book back in 2017. Right?

Ron Bronson:
Yeah. That was really more of … You know how people do … when you write your blog for years and you put all the blog posts into a book. And so that’s what that was.

Maurice Cherry:
That counts.

Ron Bronson:
The web management guide. Yeah. It was fun to get all that stuff together, mostly because all those blogs are dead now. So I’m kind of glad I got a few of those things together into a piece, but this is going to be the first time I’ve published a real print book. We did that online and you could go on GitHub. It wasn’t anything too fancy, but this will be a real thing you can put in your hands and, hopefully, use the reference guide. So I’m pretty excited about that. I’ll be more excited when it’s done, but I’m excited about getting further down the path.

Maurice Cherry:
So I read Web Management for Regular People because this was right around the time I was sort of … I mean, I was coming out of doing Lunch. I was coming out of doing my studio and looking for work, looking for something else, and really was trying to almost brand myself more as a strategist and less of just a designer because I had been a designer and I had done the studio for so long. And honestly, having a team that did the large part of the actual building and construction meant that I sort of fell behind in my skills. Yeah, I could still get in Photoshop and whip something up if I need to, but I’m nowhere near the production level work that I used to be in terms of speed. I wouldn’t say in terms of quality, but certainly in terms of speed. I’m nowhere near that.

Ron Bronson:
I hear you.

Maurice Cherry:
Not to mention, with even web design, I mean, all the stuff that went on in the mid-2010s around CSS preprocessors and stuff, I was like, “Okay, now you’ve lost me. Now that you’re introducing JavaScript into CSS, I’m out.”

Ron Bronson:
Right.

Maurice Cherry:
And I remember reading parts of your book because I was really thinking of how I would rebrand myself and eventually ended up doing that as becoming a digital strategist. And even where I work at now, I’m a content strategist, but reading what you had to say about strategy and how to design a strategist and things like that … I’d even talked with other people I’ve had on the show, like Douglas Davis, really helped me to form an idea of where I wanted to take my career next. So I want to just thank you for that.

Ron Bronson:
I appreciate that. That warms my heart. That’s really cool because I didn’t know anybody cared, but I appreciate it. That’s why when you asked about it, I’m like, “Oh, right. I don’t want to talk about that,” but that’s really cool. That’s really, really cool.

Maurice Cherry:
But it’s something that is certainly important now. It’s funny, I see so many strategy roles now that I certainly didn’t see a few years ago.

Ron Bronson:
Yeah, there definitely weren’t any back then. Right.

Maurice Cherry:
And I think, initially, they kind of were more in the purview or the domain of advertising, but now tech startups are looking for strategists and different web agencies are looking for strategists. They’re looking for someone that can sort of bridge the gap, I suppose, between the design and the business or at least has been in the trenches enough, I should say, to be able to give an overview of what should be done, where we should go, what pitfalls we should look out for. But yeah, strategy is an interesting field now in design because you’re kind of a professional generalist, in a way.

Ron Bronson:
So true.

Maurice Cherry:
And certainly, at a time in the industry when things were so heavily skewed towards product design, and I would say they probably still are-

Ron Bronson:
Still are, right.

Maurice Cherry:
… to a fault. Strategists occupy a really interesting role in the design industry. So yeah, I want to definitely thank you for that.

Ron Bronson:
I appreciate that.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, one thing that I’ve noticed, looking through your history and everything, is that coaching is a really big constant in your life. It’s something you’ve done since you were a really young man, a teenager. Mostly tennis, but you’ve coached debate, as well. What does coaching do for you?

Ron Bronson:
It’s really fun to, especially coaching tennis because you just see it … I mean, debate, too, but it happened then, too. That moment where somebody goes from a thing you talked about, oh, same thing you keep telling them over and over again … You’re like, “Look, you’re going to build on this.” I remember it happens every season, all the time. These kids, you start them off early and it’s really hard, whatever it is you’ve got them doing. Maybe you’ve got them playing people that are better than them because that’s what you need them to do that week or maybe [inaudible 00:30:07] and they’re not doing as well. And then, by the end of the year, there’s this moment when they play and it comes together for them and then they win something that you didn’t think they’d win or whatever and it’s always fun when …

Ron Bronson:
I was the worst player on a really good team in high school. There were four D1 guys on my high school tennis team. I was definitely not D1 quality. I played D3 tennis, but seeing how good players prepare, seeing how they work, and also trying to figure out how to fit in in that environment. My way to fit in was to basically be the second coach. I was a scout. So I could tell my guys, “Oh, yeah, the number one guy. Yeah, Kenny, you played that guy last year. You beat him two and one.” That was really useful to him. He appreciated that information. And so it’d go from them being curious about me saying that to them to, “Hey, Ron. Hey, did I play this guy? How did it go? Calm me down. Help me out.”

Ron Bronson:
And so I’m in high school and I’m doing this. I’m a high school junior, I’m a senior and I’m doing this for my better players because I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be on the team. And so, as I got older … I didn’t like practicing as a kid. I liked to work on my own, but I didn’t really enjoy the way practices were set up. So I’m like, how do I create an environment where players want to get better and they want to come, they want to belong, irrespective of where they are in terms of their talent level? All you need to do is be hungry and excited about it.

Ron Bronson:
So how it ties to my everyday work is the same kind of thing. You come in with energy. You come in excited. I come in trying to help you get better and it’s not transactional. I’m not trying to make you better to get something out of it for me. I mean, we benefit from it, but I don’t care about that. If it means you getting better, it means you leave and go make more money, shout out to you because you did that. You made that happen. I didn’t.

Ron Bronson:
And so coaching is that and it’s fun over the years. I’ve been to camps over the years. I’ve been coaching high school tennis now. To have this arc of seeing kids from 1998, the first time I coached, to this year … I mean, I’ve taken years off, of course, but I coached this season. Basically, in theory, there were kids in ’98 who probably could have kids now, who could be kids of mine. Right? I’ve done a generation of this, in a way.

Ron Bronson:
And so it’s fun to be a little relevant over the times and you get to see how people evolve and grow and change and how you need to adapt your methods to resonate with a different generation. I’m almost washed, but I’m not quite there yet. I’m getting there. I’m not going to be coaching at 60. Then I’ll be super washed, at that point. So I’m not going to be one of those coaches you see, like … Oh, no, no. I’m nearing my end, but it’s been really fun and it’s … You work online. As somebody who spends a lot of time on a laptop, a lot of time on a computer, it’s very, very nice to have a time where you don’t do that and somewhere you’ve got to show up and be accountable to people and not just a … to be somewhere every day.

Ron Bronson:
And it’s different than a nonprofit or something. This is different. It’s in-person. It’s every day. There’s an ebb and flow. It’s pretty simple, but it’s not. You build the culture, but you’ve got enforce the culture. It’s a lot of lessons in it. I learned so much just from this season of coaching. I learned so much. And it’s stuff that I think applies to my everyday work. So it’s super, super cool.

Maurice Cherry:
What are you obsessed with right now.

Ron Bronson:
Oh, man, Finnish baseball. I mean, it’s true. Pesapällo, Google it, friends, but I really want to know what’s next. People tease me, friends of mine. Even second-tier friends will tease me about, “Oh, your Twitter bio changes all the time.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m just AB testing,” but also I just want to [inaudible 00:33:28]. But one of the things I always put in there … It’s not in there right now, but it may be after we hang up, “Thinking out loud about a post-service design world.”

Ron Bronson:
And so I’m really obsessed right now with thinking about, as it relates to the work, anyway, is thinking about what does a world look like that doesn’t involve always just expecting folks to get on the treadmill? How do we build experiences that then involve people getting off? How do we build humane experiences that allow people to say, “Well, you used the thing, but you’re not using it anymore. Thanks for using it,” instead of guilt tripping them because they were going to unsubscribe from your stupid newsletter. I wonder about that. And I think COVID has helped a little bit with that, but I still think we’re still very embedded in the CRM, always be closing mentality of every … It’s permeated everything that we do.

Ron Bronson:
So I’m really obsessed with how do we … especially in terms of human-centered design, what does the next thing look like? How do we ideate paste this world that is very dominated by selling and buying things? Because I don’t like it. I just don’t. So I’m very obsessed with trying to figure that out, not because I want to invent something. Maybe I want to absolve my own guilt for being involved in this, tangentially, but that’s what I’m obsessed with, other than Finnish baseball, which I’m very obsessed with, is this topic.

Maurice Cherry:
Please go more into Finnish baseball.

Ron Bronson:
Long story short … This is your 90-second version of the story. [crosstalk 00:34:53] play a version of baseball. It’s the version they play now, since the 1920s. It’s a really cool design story, Finnish guy. He’s a Finnish Olympian, actually, in track, though. They played a bat and ball game in Europe that, basically, it was one base, whatever. He came to America twice and saw some baseball games. It was like, “I like this, but I can make it better.” So he went home and over 20 years, partially because of the way Finland became a country 100 years ago and so he was able to do this at the time when the country was becoming a country. So they sort of build this national pride over their own sport.

Ron Bronson:
And so he was able to iterate this sport called pesapällo, which is basically a Finnish version of baseball. There are nine players, there are four bases, there’s a bat, there’s a ball, there’s a field. Everything else is different. The rules are a little bit … It gets weirder. I found it online years ago … I invented a sport years ago and so I found it in the midst of doing that, but it wasn’t until about 2016 or so that I, through the internet, through magical Twitter, sort of went mini viral in Finland. It was an article about me in a newspaper. I ended up at the Finnish Embassy in New York. I’ve been to Finland since then. I’ve been on TV in Finland. It’s a whole thing.

Ron Bronson:
So anyway, I just enjoyed the game. I think it’s a really cool design story. It’s mostly a rural sport. You get more nanoseconds. It’s mostly a rural sport. There are some city teams, but it’s evolved into being a pretty rural sport. There are kids that play it from when they’re little. There are adults that play it. I just love the community and the culture around it. It’s a very specifically Finnish thing and I just think it’s a fun story to me. I think it’s been really fun to get immersed in it and you can … Now, I can watch all the games online. Back in the day, when I used to get into this, you couldn’t do that. It was three-day-old videos and there were no commentary and you didn’t know what was going on.

Ron Bronson:
Now, I just think I [inaudible 00:36:42] podcast. So it’s been a really fun way to get immersed in another culture through a thing that we all … many of us appreciate sports. Right? So, yeah, that’s the story.

Maurice Cherry:
Interesting. I’m looking it up now and I like that Wikipedia calls it a fast moving bat and ball sports.

Ron Bronson:
Yeah. It’s way faster than baseball. It’s definitely not boring. It’s not boring. A baseball game, you can go get a hot dog, come back and you won’t miss anything, maybe. In pesapällo, you would do that, you might miss a lot. It’s pretty great.

Maurice Cherry:
Is it played here in the States or is mostly just a European-

Ron Bronson:
No. It’s literally only played in Finland.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, okay.

Ron Bronson:
It’s literally only played in Finland. I mean, there are a few pockets of places where Finnish expats have brought it. So there’s a small community in Switzerland, there’s a small community in Germany, there’s a smaller community in Sweden. There are probably eight people in America that might play it. And as it turns out, the outreach that they were doing, it’s actually a community of people playing in Bangladesh in India, weirdly enough, and Pakistan. So there’s a [inaudible 00:37:48] trying to go … not global, but a little bit, some growth going on.

Ron Bronson:
There’s a major league for the men’s [aliment 00:37:55] sport for both, but it is entirely a Finnish exercise right now. So yeah, nothing in the States.

Maurice Cherry:
Fascinating. I’m looking it up as you’re talking about it. I’m seeing all these articles and things about … I’m going to have to watch some pesapällo on YouTube. I’m interested now.

Ron Bronson:
Yeah, there’s some good stuff on YouTube and Twitter. You go to Superfaces, you can look it up. You follow me, unfortunately. You could see my [inaudible 00:38:23]. You can unfollow me after this, but it was a good run we had. It was a good run we had, but you can see all my annoying tweets about it in half Finnish, half [inaudible 00:38:32]. [inaudible 00:38:32] at Finnish. I’ve gotten better, but it’s still pretty bad. But yeah, it’s some really fun stuff, just to highlight. They’ve gotten way better at social media in the past 10 years. So you can actually follow the game fairly well online. It’s pretty neat.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. What advice has stuck with you the longest, throughout your career?

Ron Bronson:
I don’t know that it’s specifically advice. I think it’s more modeling. Having had so many good bosses over the years, good managers, people who … or even people that weren’t managers, who just looked out for you. Having that model so much in my life has made me [inaudible 00:39:07] level of empathy and care and consideration that I never would’ve. I think it’s funny how you actually talked about 2014. The lesson is is that that experience taught me that, if that had been first job and that had been my first situation with a manager, my entire career would be different, and not for the better. And so it’s wild how one person or one situation can completely change the trajectory of your situation. So you need to choose carefully the places you decide to start your carer, move your career or whatever because people, unfortunately, have an outsized impact on where you go and how you move forward and how you get to brand yourself and so forth.

Ron Bronson:
But it made me very appreciative for the people before that in ways that I wouldn’t have that. It made me so appreciate for people that looked out for me, who empowered me, who propelled me, who gave me the room to fail, who gave me chances, helped me grow and put me in positions to be successful. And so I just try to pay that forward all the time, anyway I can, because I’m just so grateful for that.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, when I look at your past interview and then, of course, when talking with you now and just seeing all the things that you have accomplished in life, aside from career-wise, you also just have very interesting personal pursuits. You’ve sort of glossed over inventing a sport, but you’ve invented a sport, you’re into pesapällo, you’re doing all these … You had a T-line for awhile. I remember the T-line.

Ron Bronson:
Dude, yeah. You go way back.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. What haven’t you done yet that you want to do?

Ron Bronson:
I do stand up, too. That was cool. I got that out of the way. Never doing that again. It was fine. It’s just you can’t … I want to win a state title next year. That would be cool, if we can do that, only because my high school coach never got to. My high school coach meant a lot to me and then we never got to do it. Through the way schools work, a lot of the players who train end up going to private schools. So we were good, but I wouldn’t have been on a high school team if we had the players that should’ve been on the team, but we were [inaudible 00:41:06] of our state title. So I’d love to win one for him. So that’d be cool.

Ron Bronson:
Besides that, I don’t know. It’s actually a good question and I don’t have a good answer for it because I’m not sure. It’s a question I’ve wondered, myself, is, “Cool. You’ve gotten pretty far. You’ve done some stuff. Wow. What a run you’ve had. What’s next?” Getting this book out would be cool, things like that.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Ron Bronson:
I’m really curious to see, myself, what the next bucket of milestones and goals, myself, are. I’m not sure. A lot of my work right now is focused on trying to build a better world, I guess, which is hokey, but it’s true. And personally, I’m not even sure. Honestly, I really don’t even know.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I guess this is sort of a related question to that, but where do you see yourself in the next five years? What would you like the next chapter of your story to be?

Ron Bronson:
I want it to be intentional. I want the next chapter of my story to be intentional and I want there to be a level of care involved in it. It’d be cool if I could get out of America for awhile and go live somewhere else for a good while, maybe not come back. That’d be rad. That’d be the end of that. So [inaudible 00:42:14] embassy, call me, but something like that would be cool. I think maybe, as it not relates to that, thinking about the work, it’d be cool to see what other kinds of stuff I could do. It’d be fun to help a state scale up their own digital team and go run one of those. I love fixing [inaudible 00:42:33] problems and solving them. And I’ve got some longevity in that now. So I really enjoy that kind of work. So it’d be fun to find a bigger problem space and solve it and help [inaudible 00:42:42] work with a team of people to fix these problems and none of this stuff is done alone. So that could be fun to set those kinds of goals.

Ron Bronson:
I like being behind the scenes. I don’t need anything super, super visible. I don’t want to aspire to anything ridiculously visible, but I like solving problems that other folks don’t necessarily want to solve. But I think, much like when we talked seven years ago, I didn’t know what the future had in store. I didn’t know what my stealing was. And I think that, if I wanted people to get something from this, if you get nothing else from my interview, other than [inaudible 00:43:15] pesapällo, which is amazing, you should all love it, is don’t put a governor or a ceiling or a cat on your potential. Don’t let your own imposter syndrome or something your parents said when you were 11 or something a teacher said when you were 22, don’t let … or a boss said to you when you were 30, don’t let those things, those individual, isolated situations put a cap on where you think you can go.

Ron Bronson:
Obviously, you have to do the work. Obviously, you’ve got to show up. Obviously, you’ve got to have some luck, but if you can position yourself, the opportunities can come. The things can come. You’re patient, but you’re also doing the work. And be willing to reinvent yourself, but I think that that’s the biggest lesson from, say, when we talk to now and thinking about the future, is as long as you don’t put a cap on it prematurely, then who knows what doors can open, what ceilings can be there because I don’t know. I didn’t predict this. I didn’t see this coming. I really didn’t. I’m past where I thought I was trying to go, which is really cool, but also kind of frightening.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up here, Ron, where can our audience find our more about you and about your work and everything online?

Ron Bronson:
Definitely always at Ronbronson.com, definitely on your Twitter machine. Your Mileage May Vary There at Ron Bronson and also Consequencedesign.org. I’m trying to throw things up on there, as well. And since Maurice encouraged me to do this, I’m probably going to take that [inaudible 00:44:40] and stick some of that stuff on there, too.

Maurice Cherry:
The strategty book is really good. If people want to check it out, I can link to it in the show notes. It’s a quick read and really I came across it at a time when I needed to think about what my next step was going to be because I had sort of wound down my studio and I was doing interviews and, I mean, the places I was interviewing at, I was like, “I don’t want to go and just be a designer. I can bring more to the table than that.” And so reading just what you wrote about strategy and everything really changed my mindset going into all this. So hopefully, people will check it out.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, Ron, as always, thank you so much for coming on the show, for really giving us an update on what you’ve been working on. It’s been so great to hear about all the work that you’re doing, helping out our government, as whole, with the work that you’re doing. I know we’re not going directly talking about stuff, but just being able to-

Ron Bronson:
[crosstalk 00:45:39] [inaudible 00:45:39].

Maurice Cherry:
Well, yeah, that’s true.

Ron Bronson:
Yeah. Y’all can look and see. You’re smart.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, but I think just, one, being able to do that work and then also how you’re encouraging and paying it forward to other people, whether it’s in civic tech, whether it’s coaching or what have you. I can definitely tell that you have that sort of spirit of paying it forward, which I think will take you very far. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Ron Bronson:
Appreciate you, too, always for all the work you’ve been doing and doing these thankless tasks. It’s a lot of work and a lot of energy and amplifying people, especially back in the day. I’ve given you your flowers while we’re on the show. I was just a guy buried somewhere and I think I tweeted at you and you were like, “Yeah, come on the show.” That is seriously the coolest thing in the world. You didn’t have to do that. You could’ve been like, “Ah, all right, buddy. That’s fine. I’ve got a long list,” and you did. So super grateful for you, not only for this, but for all the things you’ve done over the years, your different projects you’ve put on and amplifying black designers, specifically, but also people of color and just really … not just talking about the work, but doing the work and being intentional about that, and inspiring others to do that, including me.

Ron Bronson:
So just as much as you just said, “Ah, whatever I did,” it goes back to you. Your body of work speaks for itself. So super grateful for you, for now and always.

Sponsored by Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit is a strategy and design firm committed to designing a more inclusive and equitable world.

We accomplish this through graphic design, presentations and workshops around I-D-E-A: inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility.

If you’re curious to learn how to combine a passion for I-D-E-A with design, check us out at brevityandwit.com.

Brevity & Wit — creative excellence without the grind.

Steven Christian

Steven Christian’s motto is “create and conquer”, and that’s exactly what he’s managed to do with his career. While he started out as an athlete, a sports injury cause him to discover visual art, and he has reinvented himself as a multitalented cartoonist, podcaster, animator, and AR mobile developer. Oh, and he’s studying to apply to medical school. Talk about Black excellence!

Steven shared with me how he balances all of this, and talked about how the current times helped kickstart his career. We also talked about some of his projects — including the popular Pokémon Twerk Team — and he reminisced on growing up in northern California and detailed how his injury helped open his eyes to the worlds of art, design, and tech. Steven also talked about his Skillshare courses, listed some of his inspirations, and spoke about his dream collab and the hope of building more of a community around his work. Steven is a prime example of turning what could be seen as a tragedy into an amazing triumph!

Analise Cleopatra is living proof that sometimes the things that you are seeking may take you on another path. I first learned about Analise through a reality show on YouTube called Lace Up: The Ultimate Sneaker Challenge, so that’s where we started off our conversation, and she shared how she first got into sneaker design, and what it was like studying and working at Pensole Footwear Design Academy (as well as what it’s like to be on a reality TV design show).

From there, Analise talked about what’s happened since the show last year, including preparing for an artist residency, painting, writing, and even film making! While Portland is where Analise calls home for now, I have a feeling her talent and keen eye for design will take her all over the world. Learn more about her in this week’s interview!

Revision Path is sponsored by Facebook Design. No one designs at scale quite like Facebook does, and that scale is only matched by their commitment to giving back to the design community.
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Revision Path is also sponsored by Glitch. Glitch is the friendly community where you can build the app of your dreams. Stuck on something? Get help! You got this!
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Revision Path is also brought to you by Google Design! Google Design is committed to sharing the best design thinking from Google and beyond. Sign up for their newsletter!
Revision Path is brought to you by Mailchimp. Huge thanks to them for their support of the show! Visit them today and say thanks!
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Jason Murphy is a legend in the design industry. He’s most known as being one of a half dozen design directors who oversaw the brand for Nike, but he’s also created concepts for BET, SEIU, Discovery, and many other companies and brands. Now Jason is doing his own thing as a creative director and chief creative officer, so we had a great conversation not just about his past success, but also about the future.

Jason walked me through a typical day for him, and we spoke about his talk earlier this year at the AIGA Design Conference and went from there into his time at Nike with the Nike Equality Campaign. Jason also spoke about how the Organization of Black Designers influenced him, shared what it was like working at BET in its heyday, and talked about the design scene in Portland and what he wants to do next. Jason calls himself a lover of all design, and after this interview, I couldn’t agree more!

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Revision Path is sponsored by Facebook Design. No one designs at scale quite like Facebook does, and that scale is only matched by their commitment to giving back to the design community.
fbdesign_logo_75
Revision Path is also sponsored by Glitch. Glitch is the friendly community where you can build the app of your dreams. Stuck on something? Get help! You got this!
glitch_75
Revision Path is also brought to you by Google Design! Google Design is committed to sharing the best design thinking from Google and beyond. Sign up for their newsletter!
Revision Path is brought to you by Mailchimp. Huge thanks to them for their support of the show! Visit them today and say thanks!
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