Natalie Marie Dunbar

We’re keeping the content strategy train rolling this week and chatting it up with Natalie Marie Dunbar, a UX-focused content strategist with a unique blend of skills as a journalist, writer, and researcher. She’s also the author of From Solo to Scaled: Building a Sustainable Content Strategy Practice. Very impressive!

We started off discussing the inspiration behind the book, and Natalie shared her thoughts on the changing meaning of “content creation,” and on what it takes to maintain a strong content strategy in this current tech landscape. She also talked about her early career working with huge brands Kaiser Permanente and the Food and Drug Administration, and spoke on the importance of prioritizing her own well-being through yoga. Natalie is a true content strategy maven, and I think you’ll walk away from this interview with a new understanding on its importance.

Big thanks to Louis Rosenfeld of Rosenfeld Media for the introduction!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Hi. I am Natalie Marie Dunbar. By day, I am a senior manager, content design, UX content design with Walmart, and by night and weekends, I am an author, a speaker, workshop facilitator, and sometime yoga teacher.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow, that’s a lot.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
How’s the year been going so far?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
It has been full of travel. I think I’m making up for lost time during the pandemic. I’ve been on a plane every month since last September with the exception of October and February. I did do a road trip in February, but was not by plane. I have been traveling for speaking and work. So it’s been a very busy year.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. So aside from the travel, I’m curious, how has 2023 been different for you than say last year?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
2023 has been, aside from the travel but because of the travel, things have been opening up more. I’m finding that whether, for work or for conferences and things, there’s a lot more in-person appearances happening again, a lot more in-person just interaction, which I definitely have missed, but I think my battery for my energy, I have a different level where I’m able to withstand what I call peopling. After a while, it’s like usually I can be out and about for hours, I can work a full day and then go to a conference or go to a meetup or go to a social event, and I’d be fine.

Nowadays, I have to think what time does it start, how long do I need to be there, and when do I need to shut down so I can take care of myself. So that’s definitely been a highlight of this year, especially with all the travel.

Maurice Cherry:
I just started back traveling, doing speaking stuff last year in October, and I 100% understand what you mean. Prior to the pandemic, I was traveling for work. I would be in a different city or something every month, and it was just, I don’t know, I guess I just had that rhythm, but because of the pandemic, I’ve really lost that. I think some of it is stamina and some of it is also-

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Innate.

Maurice Cherry:
… just we’ve all gotten comfortable for the most part at home and breaching that to go into the outside world, you’re like, “I want to go back home now.”

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Exactly. Exactly that. I can relate.

Maurice Cherry:
So do you have any plans for the summer? You’re doing more traveling?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I definitely want to connect with family. I’m in California. Most of my family’s in Texas area, Louisiana, some in Tennessee. So I’d love to be able to reconnect with family members that I haven’t had a chance to see since the traveling and everything started up again, and I would like to actually take a trip that does not involve business or any type of work. I haven’t figured out what that is yet, but we’ll see.

Maurice Cherry:
I think you can work something in, especially if it’s going to be in the way, not in the way, but in the path of family or something. Maybe, I don’t know, go to New Orleans or something like that. Who knows?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Definitely. My sister and I got together last year in August after not being able to visit for a while, and we have this plan. We haven’t implemented it yet, but we are wanting to go to Cape Verde off the western coast of Africa and just really immerse ourselves in the culture there. So hopefully that’ll be something. I don’t think it’ll happen this year, but I think looking forward, maybe in 2024.

Maurice Cherry:
That’ll be fun. That sounds like a fun trip. So with everything you’re doing, you mentioned you’re working, you mentioned this book that we will talk about in a little bit. What does a typical day look like for you?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, wow. I have my day job. I am in a lot of meetings. I set aside quiet time for myself to actually be heads down to actually do content work. I think the meeting thing is just part of that is working virtually or remote and just trying to get all the meetings in, especially across time zones. We’re lucky enough to have very talented team that works from all points of the US. So that’s a thing, but sometimes there’s the occasional 7:30 in the morning meeting. For me, I’ve had them, well, not in my current work, but at a past job, I remember being on calls at 6:00 in the morning, not always though, thank goodness, but yeah.

Then after that, I try to take a break, whether I’m taking a walk outside or just hanging out with my pups, connecting with family here in the house, regrouping, touching down on the stuff that makes you human. Then I usually spend an hour or two doing something having to do with the book by extension, maybe looking at speaking opportunities, calendaring, trying to figure out, “Oh, is it time for me to send out my newsletter?” which I need to write myself a note because it actually is note to self.

There are days sometimes though I’ll tell you that I’ll start with the day job at 8:00, 8:30, 9:00 and I’m still going at 9:00 at night on my other stuff. I close one laptop and then open the other. Just depends. I’ve had to put a limit on how many meetups and different things that I sign up for because there’s so much good knowledge out there and so many different organizations that I’ve found as a result of the pandemic. I’m able to attend the meetup that’s hosted in Australia because I can do it on my computer, but I have tended to overextend myself, so I have to take a moment and walk away and have that quiet time.

Maurice Cherry:
The pandemic has really opened up these opportunities to do, I guess, distance meetups or distance talks or things like that, but in that same vein, it can be super easy to just take on a lot of stuff and then at the end of the day, you’re just completely spent because there was this whole thing, I want to say, maybe earlier around in the pandemic about Zoom fatigue, which I think people still have now. One is the frequency of just doing a bunch of different video calls and stuff, but also, it just takes a lot of stamina to be on camera and paying attention and being active that day in, day out for hours at a time, whether you’re giving a talk or you’re doing work stuff. It can really wear you down.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
So true. That’s where just protecting my wellness and taking screen break. At any given moment, I may have two laptops and a large screen going, plus the cellphone and occasionally the iPad. So I try to definitely take that time to just be like, “Okay. I need to walk away from all this blue light,” and the tendency is to want to go turn on the TV, and I’m like, “No, that’s a screen too.” I’m still a person who really enjoys reading actual physical books even though I do have a Kindle. So if I’m in that mode, I’ll try to read a book or like, I said, play with my pup. That usually gets me outside, get out in the front yard even if I’m just sitting out front and just enjoying folks walking by and saying hello and making a little bit of contact that way, but yeah, really trying to be purposeful about not staring at screens all day.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m the same way too. One thing that I’ll do, especially for meetings, I will ask upfront, “Does this need to be a video call or can this be a phone call?” because if it’s a phone call, then I don’t have to look at a screen. I’ll probably be more likely to take that meeting because then I can do it … Like you said, if you’re outside, if you’re taking a walk or something, where I don’t have to be on. I don’t know what your setup is at home, but for me, I have a light on my desk and then I turn on all the lights in my room. So it’s almost like a little mini sound stage. I’m like, “It’s bright in here. It’s hot. I have to be on camera and stuff.” So if it could be a phone call, I’ll do a phone call.

Also, it is just about pacing myself. I’ll get to a certain time of night if I’m working until 8:00 or 9:00, and I’ll just stop because I’m like, “I’m not getting a medal for trying to finish this tonight. If I finish this in the morning, it’ll be just as done then as if I were to try to do it now. Let me go to bed. Let me get some rest. Let me get some sleep or something.” So yeah, trying to strike that balance, especially when you’re doing things on your own or off the clock or something like that, it can be a lot to try to handle.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Absolutely.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s talk about your book, Solo to Scaled: Building a Sustainable Content Strategy Practice. Now, for those that are listening, we’ll put a link to it in the show notes. We’ll also have a discount code for you so you can get 20% off, bit for those listening who might not have heard about it, can you give them a brief synopsis of what the book’s about?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yeah. Unlike so many great books out there that are about how to do content strategy, what it is and how to do it, this is not that. This is more about how do you assemble a team or act as a team of one to create a dedicated, UX focused, in my world, the user experience focused content strategy practice. I’m a purist. I still use the phrase content strategy. There are folks who … Actually, my day job title is now content designer. We could have a whole separate conversation about if there’s a difference and if so, what is it, but I’m talking about building a content strategy practice where all the flavors of UX and content can come together and support an agency or organization in, number one, identifying the importance of content as an asset to every business of any size, and then how do you build and sustain a practice where it coexist either, say, with a design op team or a UX team or within an agency if they have a dedicated digital experience team. That’s basically the synopsis of what it’s about.

Maurice Cherry:
So you mentioned content designer. To you, what’s the difference between a content designer and a writer or a copywriter?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, boy, I’m going to get in trouble now. So again, I always lead with UX because I’m a user experience fanatic, I would say, but user experience and focusing on the human centeredness of the digital experiences that we create that are more focused on the user interface with a digital experience and helping them with things like wayfinding and achieving whatever their top task is, whether it’s on an app or a website. I’m not so much interested in my writing about selling you on a brand or product. I’m more interested in helping you get the product or service that you came to the website or the app for.

So that’s the difference between, say, marketing copywriting for digital spaces versus the UX content strategy and content design that I’m talking about. There’s also content marketing strategy, which is more, I’m going to oversimplify, but that’s more about, say, content that is created by a brand that you then will disseminate to third parties, whether it be through social media or a guest blog post or … That is all a part of a larger content strategy, but that more focuses, again, on marketing and selling someone on a brand or getting them to buy a product versus, again, how do we help them navigate in a digital space. Hopefully that was clear.

Maurice Cherry:
That was pretty clear. I think so.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
For content strategy and content design, we’re still having conversations about what is different. Content strategy has evolved. There were a few folks before Kristina Halvorson, but her book tends to be the one, Content Strategy for the Web, that everyone remembers, the red book that came out that was like, “Oh, my gosh, that’s what we’re doing,” so where you have content people working with UX designers, interaction designers back in the day, human factors engineers that were designing interactions.

So content strategy looks across an experience end to end, but a content strategy life cycle is actually a circular thing where you’re constantly, you’re doing your discovery work to figure out what’s out there. You’re finding out where your gaps are in content, what you might need to create. You’re getting rid of content that might be outdated or stale, and then you’re launching with whatever new content and, by the way, some content strategists also write the content and some don’t. They hand off to another team who does that. Could UI/UX writers. Could also be content designers. It depends on the organization.

Then the good old optimization, optimizing, testing, and then going through that cycle again and again. So the content strategy work, I always get asked, “When’s the content strategy going to be done?” and people cringe when I say never because it should never be done. It should be something that’s cyclical that you’re always going back to make sure that your content is measuring up to whatever your goals are.

Within that, content design has emerged as content that’s created. I’ve heard it referred to as product content design, where your product may be an actual something that you could buy on an e-commerce site, but it may well be an actual service, say, per bank or financial institution, FinTech, but there’s some product or service that you’re selling. So content design tends to focus on helping users transact by the thing, make the bank transaction, whatever it is that, again, their top tasks that they’re doing, but they’re all related.

Like I said, there’s a lot happening within the industry where we’re still trying to not carve out, well, it could be carve out a niche, but it’s just to better articulate what do we mean when we say content strategy, what do we mean when we say content design, so on and so forth. So hopefully that didn’t confuse people. Hopefully it gave them more to think about and go look up and see what you find.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s amazing how I would say maybe within the past, I’d say roughly about 10 years, how content has started to become more included on design teams. I distinctly remember when content really used to be more of a marketing domain and design was more visual. Well, it’s still visual, but design was visual in that they didn’t have non-designers or non-visual designers on their team, and now we’re seeing team structures where there’s a content designer or a content strategist or they’re included along with designers on these multimodal teams, which I think is pretty interesting.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
If you look at places where Agile is practiced, Agile software development, you will find in some places, especially larger enterprises where you have scrum teams, for example, that might be for a business unit or it might be several within one business unit or whatever it is, but you’ll have a UX designer, UI/UX designer, interaction designer, a program, sorry, a project and a product manager, and the content strategist or content designer on those scrum teams that are embedded in those teams or you may have within certain product areas where you’ll have, like what you just talked about, content designer embedded in those teams or there’s the model where it’s content more as a service to an organization where you’re your own team and then you send folks out as work comes in, whatever resources are available. You could be writing a white paper, you could be writing video script, you could be writing anything, and you create content for anything.

From a strategic point of view, you’re looking across experiences though to make sure that the content that you’re creating is consistent, that your voice and tone is consistent, that if you call a thing [inaudible 00:20:21] over here, that you’re calling it the same thing over there kind of thing. So that’s where your strategy starts to come into play, where you’re looking across experiences and across channels to make sure that even if your team and your work as a UX-focused content strategist is not to create, say, the accompanying marketing pieces for a particular product or service, you still want them to be aware of how they’re describing things because you may need to incorporate some of that copy or content into your work as well.

I find that I do that often at my work. I have marketing counterparts that I work with so that … Think of a handoff. If you think about a marketing funnel where at the top you have people that are curious about a product or service, and then, say, they’re shoppers, and then they start to go through the funnel and maybe there’s conversion where you want them to sign up for loyalty program, there’s a natural handoff that happens in that space where you’re not so much marketing to them anymore. Now, you’re helping them way find and get what they need, but they don’t need to know that that’s a separate handoff. So you need to have that constant communication with your marketing and other departmental partners that create copy so that the experience for the user is seamless.

Maurice Cherry:
How have you seen content online change since you, I guess, started working as a content strategist? You’ve been working with content now for a very long time since the early days of the internet. How have you seen just content in general change?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Everything when I was really getting into digital content, it was SEO, SEO, SEO, keywords, keywords, keywords. We were not doing questionable practices like keyword stopping and all that stuff, but that was the big focus when I got into this work. The content was longer form, even contextual help content, which we now often will classify more of your UX writing, and UI/UX writing is that wayfinding content that helps you get from one part of the experience to the next.

Back in the day, it was long help pages and FAQs. We weren’t thinking about necessarily the fact that maybe if we create the digital experience in a way where FAQs and things like that aren’t needed, then we’re looking at less content and fewer words and getting out of the way of the user. So I think we had to evolve through that space. I think that’s one of the places where content partners, well, with user experience researchers, because we can put that, put content in front of people and talk with them in realtime using prototypes and sometimes even stuff that’s out there in the wild and understand what it is that people really want and need because there’s a tendency still for some that think that the more content, the better. We want to have everything so everybody can find all the stuff, but the problem with that is that it becomes so cluttered that people get frustrated and maybe the better is to help them with the wayfinding. Maybe it’s the IA, the information architecture, that needs to be more intuitive.

So we’re helping, “Where would you go to find this thing? Where would you go to find that thing?” and understanding that behavior more than just throwing big chunks of content at people and wanting them to consume all of that. We know that, well, there’s still the camp that people don’t read, especially on mobile screens, but I think people do, but their attention goes to finding the thing that they want, and they will read that. If we give them too much, then we’re overwhelming them. So I think the TLDR is that content has gotten shorter and more concise and to the point of what the user has come to the experience for in the first place.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, there’s this flood of content I feel now. We’re still in the web 2.0 age, which is user-generated content. I remember a web before there was user-generated content, but now, of course, you have tweets and blogs and TikTok, and videos, and all this stuff. Now, you have AI in the mix, so there’s a lot of AI-generated content that’s out there. In your opinion, what does it take now to really maintain a strong content strategy?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
It takes people. I have only scratched the surface of the whole AI. It’s overwhelming to me. In the environment that we’re in right now, so spring 2023, there’s been so many folks, particularly in the content design, content strategy space that have been laid off partially due because we think that some of this AI technology can take the place of a content strategy or content design. I think what people are finding out is that it could be assistive, but it’s not to be relied on. You still need that system of checks and balances. You still need that human touch and human voice to help an experience be engaging and relatable to the human that’s on the other side of it. Yes, things like AI and chatbots and all that, those things are getting more sophisticated, but I would argue that in order to establish and maintain a robust and relevant content strategy, that you need people to do that.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m glad you mentioned people because we are recording this right now. It’s May 18th when we’re recording this just so people know. I just saw, I think it was maybe yesterday, maybe today, that BuzzFeed, which just shuttered their news department, et cetera, had been talking about how they are going to start using AI to help generate … I guess the best way to put it would be to generate affinity content. I don’t know if affinity is really even the best term for it, but essentially, he was telling investors, Jonah Peretti, the guy who created BuzzFeed, was telling investors that they’re going to use AI to generate content, headlines, infinite quizzes, and develop Black, Asian, Latino identity-based content to help corporate brands tap in authentic voice to sell products. That sounds sinister.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yeah, it does.

Maurice Cherry:
So you’re going to get AI to try to not only just replicate humans, but also replicate Black, Latino, Asian, and then have the nerve to call it authentic, but I see companies try to do that though. I’m seeing brands that are looking at how they can tap into AI so they can do that to generate more content.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I’d heard that BuzzFeed had shut down their news division, which was shocking but not. This is news to me and the fact that the word authentic … Is that what you said, authentic?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It’s in the transcript that he said.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I got to go find that. I’m going to go find that. I have lots of thoughts, but there is no authenticity without tapping into humanity. I don’t care how many eyeballs are on AI and how … We’ve all heard, I hope, the stories of the people who sit in Africa and other countries who are having to look at some of the worst content. I even hesitate to call it that on the internet to help filter the bad stuff out, but that’s only one aspect. Again, we need humans. So all of that still has a human element to it for better or for worse, but there’s no way that my lived experience as a Black woman of color … Well, that was redundant. In the digital space, in technology, you’re not going to find AI-generated anything that’s going to be able to relate my story the way that I can or the way that maybe one of my Asian American counterparts can share their stories and their lived experiences. I mean good on them for being upfront about it, but hey. Wow, that gave me chills. I’m like, “Really?”

Maurice Cherry:
That like some Black mirror shit.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
[inaudible 00:29:19]

Maurice Cherry:
It’s very sinister been. I’ve seen some stories, and we’ll get back to talking more about your work and everything, but I’ve seen some stories where, say, an influencer will train a ChatGPT model on tweets or any long form content and then use that in lieu of themselves almost like a digital twin to generate content for them. I’m wondering, and I don’t know, let me not even say that. I don’t even want to put that out in the ether, but I feel like I could see a future where companies are trying to mine content that’s currently online, like what ChatGPT does now, and use that in some weird regenerative fashion, as Peretti was saying here, to create, quote, unquote, “an authentic voice.”

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Good luck with that, Peretti. I think the thing that comes to mind too and, again, I have stayed out of the … I can’t ignore the AI conversation completely because it’s coming after my work, not my work at my job. Let me just say that. Not my work, but just my discipline, the thing that I’m most passionate about. You just can’t get that authenticity. At that point, then just insert a chip into my brain and let’s call it done. That’s scary for me.

The thing is too that I’m hearing is that a lot of what, I guess, people are finding from ChatGPT or whatever other services there are out there is that there’s still a lot of what is generated that’s not accurate, attribution to … I have not gone out and said, “Hey, ChatGPT, who’s Natalie Marie Dunbar? What do they do?” or whatever. I know people have done that and been served up some very interesting information about things that they’ve never done in their life. So there’s that. So you still need batch checkers. You still need human validation, and that’s what I’ll say about that.

Maurice Cherry:
You mentioned there are these contractors that are working in Africa and in overseas, places that are being paid pennies on the dollar, basically, to be that human check, to be that moderation, which is, I don’t know, it’s all just really sinister to think about the fact that content is starting to go down that route.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yeah, but we’re going to keep fighting to pull it back.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, yeah. I think so.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I think this is cyclical. I think this is the flavor of the season, and folks are excited about it. I think there’s a lot to be, I don’t want to say afraid. I would hesitate to think that this is the end all be all to we’re going to save a whole bunch of money and not have to have a bunch of content folks because we could just generate it from this thing. I think there’s a lot of danger in that, but I think that also has to come to fruition hopefully in not a horrible way, but yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
So let’s switch gears here a little bit and learn more about you and your backstory and how you came to be this content strategy maven. You’re currently in Pasadena, California. Is that where you’re from originally?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Nope. I was born in Texas in a town called Port Arthur, if that’s familiar to anyone. Janis Joplin was born there too. Any Janis Joplin fans out there? I grew up on the East Coast, in New York and New Jersey. We traveled. My father was by day of pharmacist and by night a jazz musician.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, nice.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
When the jazz took over, that’s when we moved east so he could be proximal to all the amazing jazz clubs in New York City, which I will say back in the day, you could actually take your small child to one of those gigs and sit her over in a corner, this may or may not have happened to me, and they could listen to the music and be served french fries and a cola. That was my life. It was great. In the summer, I would go with my dad sometimes to some of his gigs, and it was amazing.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. What did your dad play?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
He played jazz guitar.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I was lucky enough to see Herbie Hancock. Well, that’s the one that comes to mind because I remember we were at the Village Vanguard, and I remember my dad sitting in on a set, and I always loved Herbie Hancock’s music even as a kid, and just sitting there just eyes wide open like, “This is amazing,” and going to … My dad recorded a bunch of albums of his own, but also as a session guy with other musicians and being able to go to recording sessions, which were painfully long, not like it is today, no computers, but yeah, and I was just a normal kid going to school, always, always, always, always reading or writing though from the age that I could do it. So that’s been a theme throughout my life is writing.

Maurice Cherry:
So knowing that, was that something that you really wanted to focus on when you went to high school, went to college? Is that what you ended up focusing on?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yes and no. So I knew you that I wanted to be … At some point, I refined. It’s like, “I want to be a writer,” became, “I want to be a journalist.” I wanted to write for newspapers and magazine. That was my jam. Then I went to college and majored in sociology and criminal justice. I don’t know what happened. I took a sociology class and I was just like, “I really like this. This is really cool.” Definitely related, the study of social science because how else can we understand the masses of people. I remember when … Oh, this is going to date me and age me, but the area of study in college at that time was mass communications. So we didn’t have all the many channels of mass communications that we have now, but that was the thing that I knew that I wanted to somehow insert myself into that space.

I got sidetracked by sociology and fell in love with criminology and criminal justice. Somewhere along the way I was like, “I’m going to be a lawyer.” That never happened. I had a few friends that graduated a couple years before me, and we were all on that same path. We were very creative people, definitely into … Any class that allowed writing essays and all that stuff, I was all for it. It’s like, “Don’t give me any tests and make me write 10 papers. I’m good.”

I had a few friends that went on to law school and they said, “Don’t do it. Here’s why.” I think for me, I think I had some health issues in my last year or so of college. So that delayed me from taking LSAT and all that stuff. I did a reassessment and then I went and did something. I did nothing with my degree for a while. I did nothing with really anything. I graduated college and then ended up working managerial retail for a while, but I was still writing on the side, not very good. I was trying to take a class here and there and everything. I went a very, very, very roundabout way to land in becoming a writer, really becoming a writer.

By the time I did, I ended up in marketing communications at Farmers Insurance. The way that I got there was I had been writing. I was in a completely different department. I was actually in our real estate owns and property management, but I was a volunteer for all different kinds of things. We did things with the March of Dimes and Easterseals, and I would write for the employee publication and do a little article about those kinds of things.

Eventually, I started getting clips together. Then I had people outside of my full-time job saying, “Oh, I heard that you write. I’ve got this friend. She’s got an independent magazine,” so on and so forth. So I started amassing this collection of clips as we called them back in the day. Eventually, I felt like I had enough to start actually applying internally for marketing communications jobs, and I finally got one. So I started in marcomm. I did this really backwards. I started in marcomm, left that world, ended up being a newspaper journalist for Pasadena Weekly, and then got back into digital and jumped right into the user experience space. So that’s my crazy background.

Maurice Cherry:
So you had a roundabout way of coming back to it, but I’m curious, during those times when you weren’t, I guess, you weren’t professionally writing in that it was your main thing, but you said you were working in retail and stuff like that. I feel like those experiences are still important, especially right out of school, particularly if you went right from high school to college with no break. Sometimes you need a break. That’s not to say that it has to be something that you really have to do, but I’m thinking of myself. When I graduated, I didn’t really get into design until I think maybe three years after I graduated. I was selling tickets at the symphony. I think I worked at Autotrader for a while. I got fired from Autotrader. I had a math degree, and I didn’t want to go to grad school because I was just tired of school, but I had been doing design on the side like how you were writing on the side. I was still designing and doing things like that, but had eventually, also like you, amassed enough work and built a portfolio to the point where I could start actually getting design jobs, real design jobs.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Exactly.

Maurice Cherry:
I think that’s a good thing, that stuff. I’m going to sound old by saying this, but I feel like it builds character. That stuff builds character.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
It does. It builds character. As I’m listening to you talk, I realized that maybe I’ve been telling my story a little bit wrong. I think what it does too is help you in the content world, in the writing world find your voice. I know my father used to tell me, “You will find writing work when you know the story you want to tell and you have something to say,” or something along those lines, and I was like, “Okay. That’s deep. I’m going to go think about that for about three or four years.” [inaudible 00:40:18]

I think from a design, especially visual design, I think you’re learning your aesthetic, it’s the way I want to say it, is seeing the things that make you react, seeing in bad or good ways and honing in on figuring out what your own style is. I definitely have a way when I write long that’s different from the microcopy that I write day-to-day work because sometimes it’s just not appropriate because I definitely have an edge to the way that I tend to write, especially articles. I still dabble in writing long little form articles for blogs and things these days, but yeah, I think I was just learning and refining my own voice in the way that you would learn and refine your own aesthetic. All of the things are valuable. All of the experiences that we have make us the designers and writers that we’ve become.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, because I think what it also does is it gives that perspective of what it’s like to be … I guess you could say, quote, unquote, “a user” as opposed to being the practitioner. Even now when I think about working at the symphony and working at Autotrader and these other places, yeah, I wasn’t doing design. I was answering phones and picking out tickets on seating charts and stuff like that. It wasn’t design, it wasn’t math either, but what it did do is just give me a general education about what it means to talk to people, to help people out, to find out, “Well, why is this thing confusing? Oh, I see why it’s confusing. It’s confusing to me, so of course it’s confusing to you.” If you’re the person that maybe designed the process or the thing, you may not even see that because you’ve got your blinders on to how it was built as opposed to how it’s being used.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, my goodness, yes. That just reminded me of … I might be jumping ahead a bit, but in that crazy circular route that I took, no, it was more of a zigzag to get to the work that I do now, even after getting into digital experience, consumer experience, user experience because it had all those names back in the day, I actually started in content and then I was like, “What if I became a product manager?” and I did that for a little bit. Mind you, the product that I own was user-generated content, so I was never very far from content.

Then I was like, “Well, okay, what do user researchers do?” and that was when I was like, “I am finally going to use my sociology degree,” and I put on the user researcher’s hat for a while, and I did use research. The reason why that came to mind is that there was nothing more compelling than sitting on the other side of the double mirror that we had in our usability lab watching people struggle with something that we thought was so straightforward.

It was like, “Oh, people are going to be able to use this watch. They’re just going to come in. They’re going to do this.” We would have the engineers in there. We would have product people, anybody that wanted to come and observe all the way to the CEO, “You should come and watch people try to use this thing that you wanted us to build, and we’re telling you it’s not going to work the way that you think it is and go through that usability testing,” and they’re like, “No. I don’t think this works the way you think it does.”

Then relating that back to what you were saying about working at the sympathy, and then I’m going to use a word that rhymes, empathy. I’ve built that, and I’m sure you have through those experiences, those very analog experiences, actually, where we’re not using computers and different things to help people and now we’re expecting folks to pick up a digital device of some sort and be able to find their way with beautiful designs and very little words. It’s like, “So how do we make that happen?” and that’s that building that user empathy. I think working with the public, that should almost be a prerequisite. Don’t tell anybody I said that, everybody that’s listening. That’s amazing.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you worked for a while for yellowpages.com. You were doing content strategy, you were a UX product manager, and folks that know that listen to the show, I worked there as well for two years. It was AT&T, but it was yellow pages.com doing website designs and doing … Oh, God. What were those little graphic tiles? XMEGs and X tiles and all that stuff for the yellowpages.com website, essentially those little tiles that would pop up that people could click on. That was what our department was doing, and making a ton of webpages, one page sites, three page sites, five page sites.

In hindsight, I liked the experience. It was a good experience because it just taught me how to design quicker in that way. You have to take the information. Basically, you go into … Oh, what was the thing called? Ice Blue, I think, was the name of the software that we used. You go into Ice Blue, you pick the company you’re doing it for, you have to go and pull a physical packet of where the salesperson has talked to the business.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I remember that.

Maurice Cherry:
There’s a physical packet of the text that you have to put in and maybe their logo that you have to scan. Our department had one scanner for 30 designers, and you had to scan the logo so you could use that, maybe trace an illustrator, and you’d have to put all this together into a website usually within a matter of hours.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Wow.

Maurice Cherry:
One page sites, I think the limit that they had us at was three hours, and then five page sites … No. One page sites were three hours, three page sites were five hours, and then if it was five or more pages, basically the whole day, but you were not meant to spend more than one day on building a site. So because of that, even with a team of 30 designers, we were always behind.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, wow.

Maurice Cherry:
The managers were always yelling at us, “Why aren’t you all getting more work done?” It’s like we’re designing three webpages, full-fledged webpages a day, design content, all that stuff, putting it together.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Wow.

Maurice Cherry:
It was a harrowing time, but I look back on it fondly because it did teach me, I think, the utility of just shortcuts and working fast and not really having time to mull on a decision for something. You just have to put it out there and do it. I feel like some of my best designs were just shot from the hip because it was like, “I don’t have time to think about how this might look. I just have to do it.”

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Exactly.

Maurice Cherry:
“Brand colors? Okay, we’ll work with this,” blah, blah, blah. How was your experience working with yellowpages.com?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
So as you’re talking about this, I’m remembering when that push came, when those sites were being built for the folks that had listings and they had more than the free listing. So my experience was the site that held all the listings, we didn’t really touch the listings that much except for when we would add features like these websites. So we had to determine if there was going to be a button or link that was going to … how do we get people from the main yellowpages.com listing site to go into the listing and how do we organize that information on the listing page.
Beyond that, we impacted everything from the homepage to the … We used to have city guide pages. Eventually, we had some product pages. We started adding articles and different things to the website to the yp.com main website. When I joined, I still have images of this on a laptop somewhere, which is our yellowpages.com branding. At the time it was … Oh, what was it? I forget the tagline. I thought I had it and I don’t, but meet something. That’s how far back I go.

Then we had a bunch of just links. There was very little imagery on the homepage and it was links. Again, that was that SEO, which is like, “We have city guide links. What are the most popular cities that people are looking for? Okay. What is our data telling us? Well, we should have this link. Okay. Well, if we’re going to have that link, then what’s going to happen when people click on it? Oh, we should have a rich content-driven city page,” and that was stuff that I wrote about Jacksonville, Florida and Orlando and Los Angeles and so on and so forth, whatever the … I think it was the top 25 cities that people would search for we had the most robust content for.

Eventually, we built that out, and that was when content strategies started to be a thing in the back of my mind. It’s like, “Oh, well, we’re not just saying, ‘Oh, we’re just going to have this whole bunch of content and we’re just going to have SEO value,’ but now we’re going to think about, ‘How are people going to interact with that content? What are some of the ways that we can expand on this?'” So eventually we started thinking about other sites that had UGC, user-generated content, because when I joined, ratings and reviews were not a thing yet. That was the big, big thing beyond SEO. We were looking for that organic SEO from user-generated content, but people weren’t writing reviews on yellowpages.com. It really took time to get some traction around that, and then eventually we did.

Back in the day, you could make a deal with different third parties to bring their reviews onto the site to get critical mass, and then digging into, what is that experience like? How do we discern what is a yellowpages.com original review versus one that we might get from a third party? So all of that is now we’re talking about content strategy. Now, we’re talking about not only what does it say, but what does that experience look like because content is not just words. Content is an aggregate of all elements, whether it’s images, video, whatever it is. All of that is content, but how do you put it together to tell a compelling story and to help people get to what they need? That was the thing.

So that’s full circle, but yellowpages.com is where I wore the hat of editorial producer, which is what I was called back in the day. Then I went to product management, then I was a user researcher, and then right before I left, I was still dealing with the user researcher stuff, but I was also getting back into content because we started doing articles and things like that. I tell people I cut my teeth in all things digital. I did everything but code.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, I remember my time at Yellow Page. I feel like I did, and this was at a time when … For folks that are listening, it was the transition from table -based websites to CSS websites.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
So not only were we having to create these new sites, in some cases, we had to convert sites. We had to take table sites that maybe another designer a few years ago, maybe that doesn’t work there anymore, we had to take those sites and then change them to CSS. I remember I had written a CSS framework called Slats, and I was trying to get my team on board, get my team lead on board because I was like, “This will help cut down on the time it takes because now all you have to do is just go in and choose a CSS variable, it’ll automatically float to the left, float to the right.” We’re dating ourselves. They were like, “This was still when IE6 was a thing, and cross-browser compatibility was tough.”

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
It was.

Maurice Cherry:
I remember writing it and I sent it to my team lead and she was mentioning, “Well, we’re not sure about if we’re going to use CSS for layouts because of different people’s browsers and maybe they have Internet Explorer, maybe they have Firefox, maybe they have Opera.” It ended up not being used. Even for web audio, we were using Java applets. This was a long time ago.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, wow.

Maurice Cherry:
The cut your teeth part, I totally get that because the time it takes to put that stuff together, at least on our end, was we didn’t have time to really talk to the client or talk to the business about what it is they need. It’s like you get whatever’s in that packet and you just have to make it work.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Exactly.

Maurice Cherry:
It almost felt like a reality show design challenge. You’re presented with such limited information, then you have to throw it together, and then it gets sent over to QA, and once it’s out of my hands, I’m onto the next because it was basically just a never-ending stream of sites. Honestly, the time that I spent there is what inspired me to quit and start my own studio because I was like, “Wait a minute. I can do these websites like the back of my hand. I’m going to take this little framework that I created and I’m going to go and try to serve some clients,” which is what I ended up doing.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Excellent. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you’ve worked with numerous brands over your career. Just to name a few, the Food and Drug Administration, Anthem, Kaiser Permanente, et cetera. When you look back at those experiences, what really sticks out to you the most?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
That’s a favorite question of mine because what I find that is the common thread between government agencies like FDA and CTP, Center for Tobacco products, et cetera, and places like yellowpages.com, which was owned by AT&T and Anthem, highly regulated. They were all highly regulated. You’ve got your yellowpages.com owned by AT&T, so we had telecom regulation. They got your healthcare, which is a whole another ball of wax as far as regulatory compliance. You’ve got your different government agencies that have their own compliant from agency to agency. I think that’s been a common theme for me up until … Well, I don’t want to say up until now because the e-comm definitely has its own regulatory exposure as well.

I think those experiences helped me learn to balance business goals, user needs, voice and tone all while being very mindful of steering clear of violating any regulatory compliance issues. I think that’s the common thread. I didn’t go seeking them, but I think that’s explains the trajectory a little bit where there’s a common thread for me.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you mentioned earlier in this interview about how you’re doing all this traveling and stuff. Of course, you’re promoting the book and everything. You’re doing your day job and you’re really big about prioritizing your own wellbeing alongside your work. You do yoga. You’re a yoga teacher, is that right? Yoga instructor?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
That is right. I’m on hiatus right now because of the book thing. I’ve been a little busy traveling, but yeah. Somewhere back in 2005, I decided that it would be a really fun experience to do a half marathon, and you may say, “What the heck does that have to do with yoga and wellness?” Well, a lot because I was going to do one-half marathon, I was going to walk that thing and I was going to be done and I was raising money for charity. 10, 11 years later, I was still doing it, and I had become a marathon coach. It was a side thing. I was [inaudible 00:56:17] for a volunteer organization, but what I found was I was not only coaching, I was also, I use the term racing very loosely, but I did finish every marathon or half marathon that I ever started, and that number is somewhere around 25 or 30 now.

The knees start to hurt and hips start to hurt. Someone said, “You should try yoga,” and I’m like, “But I did and I didn’t like it.” I was in somebody’s living room trying to pretzel my body into a pose and there was no instructor because we were watching a video and I had a really bad experience with it. So I went and I took a couple of classes because I had my coaches telling me, “This might help you. Just go check it out,” and I’m like, “Oh, this is different when you have an actual instructor,” but I’m a person who lives in a larger, curvier body. What I found was that there were instructors that did not know how to teach me yoga. They would just say, “Well, if this is too difficult for you, you could just [inaudible 00:57:16] in child’s pose.” I’m like, “Holy. Okay.” I would walk into studios after doing a training walk or run because eventually I did start running more of 15 miles that I would have a yoga teacher literally look me from toe to head and go, “You know this is going to be hard, right?”

So yes, it’s a little plug for a little bit of body positivity and awareness. So I started looking for yoga for people like me, and cheesy as it sounds, I figured out I had to become the yoga teacher that I wanted to see. During a time where I had gotten laid off from a job and I was only marathon coaching and doing two weeks here, one month there content work, someone said to me, “Have you ever thought about …” I had a dance background when I was a kid. “Have you ever taught about teaching dance again?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” I started seeing online material from a yoga teacher that was Bates at the time in Nashville, and she had created this platform called Curvy Yoga. Hello. One thing led to another, and I was consuming her content and practicing along on her website.

I remember getting an email saying, “I’m going to open up yoga teacher training in the coming months, and if you’re interested, send an email.” I sat there and I thought about it and I’m like, “Well, this is probably not going to be my career career, but I’m already doing the marathon coaching thing.” Ironically, one of the ways that I would try to help people, quote, unquote, “get into their bodies more for marathoning,” I bought a yoga anatomy book because it makes sense to me.

Lo and behold, that was one of the books that I had to buy because I did sign up for that yoga teacher training. I did my 200-hour training, and it helped me to be not only a better marathon coach, but when I got back into the corporate world, it made me aware of the fact that working 10, 12, 14-hour days was not doing my body any justice. It was not psychologically safe. It was not tenable for years and years at a time. I’m still good for a 17-hour launch because sometimes it’ll take that long.

I just started to be more and more aware of how I wasn’t being kind to my body and still expecting to put out the hours of work that I was doing from week to week and day to day. So yeah, so that focus now. Ironically, as I am going out and speaking about my book and talking about the importance of content as an asset and that kind of thing, the talks that I’m doing now are more focused on a chapter that I talk about maintenance and specifically what it takes to keep a strong practice core, focusing on the health and wellness of the practitioners who make the practice what it is.

The thing about content strategy is there’s a part in the book where I’m talking about, I think I call it three persistent principles. One of those things is always be educating. You’re always going to be explaining to whether it’s a new designer, a new product manager, a person in senior leadership, the importance of content as an asset, the importance of content strategy and content design. I can lament for days with other content practitioners, don’t even have to be a manager or leader. Somebody always has that one deck that explains, “Okay. This is what content strategy is. This is what it’s not. This is what we do. This is what we don’t do. This is how you engage us,” and so on and so forth.

As much as it sounds like I can repeat that from rote and it’s not taxing, it actually is because you’re always advocating, always. I don’t know why, but it is a thing where we’re always having to advocate for the importance of content as an asset and having the people on board to get that work done, which is why I wrote the book because people often ask me, “How do I find people like you? How do I build a content strategy practice? What does that even mean, and do I actually need one?” So full circle, yoga and book, there we go.

Maurice Cherry:
I think it’s really smart that you were able to pull that insight out of something that, just as we spoke about earlier, pulling insight out of something that may not be directly related to the work that you do but you’re still able to apply it. So even as you’re going through this with yoga, you’re finding out, “Oh, this is analogous to something I can use to talk about content strategy.”

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
My first talk that I pitched to Confab, which is Brain Traffic, Kristina Halvorson’s big content strategy conference. We actually just celebrated the last one a few weeks ago, but a couple of years back, I pitched a talk called Yoga, UX, and Content Strategy. It still continues to be my most requested talk.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I married the two because I was so passionate about both of them. In that talk, I talk about creating safe and accessible spaces. In the same way that we do in a yoga studio for people of differently abled bodies, we also want to be able to bring that same approach to the digital information spaces that we create in. I was trying to keep the two separate and then somehow they got conflated and I was like, “Well, let’s just run with it.” That’s dope.

Maurice Cherry:
Those are the best talks though too when you can really make an analogy between two disparate things. For some reason, those really seem to click with audiences. So good on you for that.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Yeah, thank you.

Maurice Cherry:
What does success look like for you now at this stage in your career?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I don’t want to describe myself as necessarily a late bloomer because I’ve been over here blooming for a bit, but I think the book has elevated things. I started getting into more public speaking literally weeks before the lockdown happened. I spoke at the local World IA Day conference, which the LA chapter actually met or the LA version happened here in Pasadena because we’re just north of LA, and that was one of those places where I did a talk and it was about information architecture and content strategy, another mashup, because I did a play on … What is it? Does it spark joy? The Marie Kondo whole bit about creating nice spaces. Now, things are escaping my brain.

Anyway, that was another mashup talk that I did. I’m not an IA. Even though I do dabble in information architect, I wouldn’t self-describe myself in that way, but we’re often joined at the hit with IA and content strategy. So I was trying to show the places where we overlap and how we support each other. That was one of those places where somebody was like, “Oh, my God, that talk was so great. How do I find somebody like you? How do I go a practice?” that kind of thing.

Then two weeks later, lockdown. I started looking at places where I could … All of a sudden there’s like, “I can’t go to that conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, but it’s going to be online, I could probably pitch a talk.” I started pitching talks. Then somewhere along the way, I belong to an organization called Women Talk Design, so women and non-binary folks. It’s like a speakers bureau and training place for folks who are in this design space who are maybe underrepresented as speakers and facilitators and that kind of thing.

I think that’s where Lou Rosenfeld encountered some of my talks and articles that I had been doing, and he asked to be introduced to me, and I kid you not, I was like, “Oh, he must want me to speak at the conference because that’s what I had been doing.” I tell the story all the time, but I’m going to tell it again. 25 minutes into a 30-minute conversation was when it was like, “Oh, he’s wanting me to maybe write a book. Okay. That’s different.” He’s like, “Maybe we should schedule more time,” and I’m like, “Yeah, let’s do that,” and here we are. That was pretty phenomenal and very unexpected, but if you’re going to write a book, I would say doing it during a pandemic was not a bad thing. I had something to do with my time.

Maurice Cherry:
What is it that sort of keeps you motivated and inspired now to continue this work?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I am accepting my place as … You used the word maven earlier, and that’s one of my favorites now. Accepting my place with humility and grace, but also, I’m reminded often by my son, I did not get here by being lucky, that I put the work in. So now, I’m wondering where does that take me. I love the work that I’m doing. I love the team that I’m on. Design and particularly content design is elevated as much as research and visual design, and I have a lot of respect for the leaders of our org where I work at Walmart.

Beyond that, I want to continue to motivate others, whether that be through some type of coaching. I was at the last Confab a couple weeks ago, and just seeing … Particularly, there was a time when, again, identifying myself as a woman of color in the tech space in content where I was the only one in the room, and to be at Confab and to have more than a dozen people who look like me coming up and saying, “How’d you do it?” or, “Thank you for doing it,” or just being motivated by their excitement of being in these spaces that weren’t necessarily paths that we could see ourselves in, and just reaching out and really just … When people ping me on LinkedIn and they’re like, “Can I bend your ear for a few minutes? I’m curious about this or that.” Yeah, just wanting to be able to talk to people and, again, wave the flag of the importance of content as an asset. I think I’ve said that 20 times now if your listeners accounting.

I think eventually helping people who may read the book and still say, “I’m only a team of one and I need help, and can you come help us build this team?” maybe that’s in my future as a consultant, but right now, I’m happy with what I’m doing and there may be another book in me. I don’t know. I like writing long. I enjoy it.

Maurice Cherry:
So as we get to the end of this, I’m curious, what do you want the next chapter of your story to be? Where do you see yourself in the next five years or so?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
I have been lucky enough to be included in a group of peers that are leading in the content strategy and content design space, whether it’s authors or leaders at certain large companies. I was trying to think of the word enterprises and it just went out of my head. We’ve recently published Content Design Manifesto. If you Google it, you’ll find it. Literally, it came out a week or two ago. There was a gathering of a small group of leaders in the space who came together to actually think about, “What is the work that we’re doing now? How do we define it? Where do we want it to go?”

So in similar ways to the Agile Manifesto, we got together and did this. We framed the document, the purpose, and the whole thing, and released it out into the wild. I can’t even remember how many hundreds of people have signed this thing to say, “Yes, we’re on board.” So I think for me, helping to not direct, but just contributing to what this discipline can still become. Aside from ChatGPT and all that stuff aside, when folks come back and go, “Yes, we actually do need content people,” being ready for that and helping people ramp up again.

I’ve done that in my career already, probably twice now. There’s been some waves where it’s like, “Eh, we don’t really … We’ve got content. It’s good. We don’t really need a full practice or a full team,” only to find in a couple of years later, “Actually, yes, we do. We’ve got way more content than one person can handle or that no person can handle, and we really need someone who’s adept at getting this done.” So I see myself as being a part of the folks who collectively have a voice in guiding and mentoring the direction of where the practice of content strategy and content design are going to take us.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you, about your work, about the book? Where can they find that online?

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Oh, my goodness. I am still on Twitter. My handle is TheLiterati, T-H-E-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-I. I have same handle on Instagram. I do try to keep things updated with where I’m speaking, teaching, not yoga, but content strategy stuff. I’m on LinkedIn. I do welcome people to reach out. Just look up Natalie Marie Dunbar. By the way, there is a Natalie Dunbar who is an author who writes romance novels. She is a woman of color. When I had the very fortunate problem of how do I disambiguate, that’s why I used my middle name because that was one of the things I asked, the first thing I asked Lou Rosenfeld. I’m like, “I never thought I would be able to ask this question of a publisher, but now that I have one, how do I do that?” and he’s like, “Use your middle name.” I’m like, “Duh.”

So I’m out there, and all of those, LinkedIn, Instagram, all of those will link you to my … I have a website. On that website, you can sign up for my newsletter. I always tweet a link to my newsletter. I put it on a monthly-ish. Again, I’m late so I need to get on that within the next couple of days and that’ll tell you where I’m speaking and all those good things. So I welcome folks to follow along in my adventures.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well, Natalie Marie Dunbar, I want to thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I think if there’s anything that people can get from this is that you have such a passion and a curiosity for content strategy and how it just works within not only the digital world, but in our world at large, and that’s something that, especially as more and more content gets created … We talked about AI and all that sort of stuff. As more and more content gets created, I am drawn back to what you said about it still is going to need humans. It’s still going to need people in order for content to really thrive and to have good content strategy. I hope that people get a chance to pick up the book. Like I said, we’ll put it in the show notes, but I’m so glad that we have you to be someone that is a practitioner of this to help steer us all in the right way. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Natalie Marie Dunbar:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it being here and chatting with you.

Sponsored by Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit is a strategy and design firm committed to designing a more inclusive and equitable world. They are always looking to expand their roster of freelance design consultants in the U.S., particularly brand strategists, copywriters, graphic designers and Web developers.

If you know how to deliver excellent creative work reliably, and enjoy the autonomy of a virtual-based, freelance life (with no non-competes), check them out at brevityandwit.com.

David Dylan Thomas

This week’s guest is a true legend in the game — the one and only David Dylan Thomas. He’s the author of Design for Cognitive Bias, has over twenty years of content strategy and UX experience, and he’s presented talks and workshops worldwide on topics at the intersection of bias, design, and social justice.

We had a pretty broad conversation, touching on everything from his latest talk in Copenhagen to how he started The Cognitive Bias Podcast. David also shared his story of growing up in Maryland, attending Johns Hopkins, and gave his thoughts on the present environment of creating content online. You might want to take notes on this episode, because David drops a lot of knowledge!

Interview Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, so tell us who you are and what you do.

David Dylan Thomas:
My name is David Dylan Thomas. I am an author and a speaker. My day job really is to just go around and get people excited about and give them better tools for more inclusive design, and I do that from talks and workshops that I give at conferences, organizations, what have you.

Maurice Cherry:
How’s the year been going for you?

David Dylan Thomas:
Busy. I’ve been doing a lot of traveling. It’s like I’m making up for years of growing up without travel, and then the most recent three years of no travel because of COVID. I’ve been to Stockholm, Denmark, Japan, and then last fall I was in Berlin and just Seattle and all these other places, so it’s been really fun but exhausting.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow, so you’ve been making up for lost time.

David Dylan Thomas:
Exactly, yeah, and it is this very much like growing up, I did not make a lot of money or my family didn’t have a lot of money, so the idea of travel was just totally out of reach, and now it’s the exact opposite end of the spectrum where I’m like world traveler and I love it, but yeah, it’s a lot.

Maurice Cherry:
Living the dream.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Speaking of all this travel, do you have anything that’s planned for the summer?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, it’s not slowing down. Well, so I’m going to be at UX London in a few weeks. I’m going to visit some friends in San Francisco in a few weeks. I’m hitting up a gig in Tampa, family vacation to Montreal, so it’s staying pretty busy. I might get a break in August. I’m not sure yet, but it’s all good, but yeah, there’s still more to come.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. I mean, you’ve got a stacked year so far. That’s pretty good.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. I hate the act of travel, like air travel I despise. I…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… [inaudible 00:04:00] it, but I love being places. I just hate getting there, so that’s the other exhausting part is the actual act of air travel. I’m not a big fan.

Maurice Cherry:
I know the feeling all too well. I went to Toronto back in October last year, and it was my first time traveling since before the pandemic, at least air travel before the pandemic. I was like… I was kind of dreading it a little bit, to be honest. I was like I had been seeing stuff on the news about people fighting in air airports and on the plane and stuff, and I was like, and I’ve been Atlanta. I’m like, “I don’t want to do,” I mean, I wasn’t flying spirit or anything, but I was like, “I don’t want to go to the airport and it’s a whole thing.” You know?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
I just want to get to where I have to go without incident, and it was fine, but I was kind of a bit worried leading up to it. I’m trying to get my sea legs back with travel because I used to travel a lot, like pre-pandemic for work and for the show, and I’m trying to like ease back into it now.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, I’m fully on board at this point. I’ve been… I think I’ve traveled more post-pandemic than I ever did pre-pandemic…

Maurice Cherry:
Wow-

David Dylan Thomas:
… at this point.

Maurice Cherry:
What lessons did you learn this past year? How would you say you’ve grown and improved?

David Dylan Thomas:
I’ve learned what my, or I’m starting to learn, I’m beginning to learn what my boundaries are because as much as I enjoy the travel, there’s a psychological hit, a social hit, there’s a family hit, there’s an economic hit, to be frank, but I’m learning. I won’t say I’ve learned it yet, but what I’m learning is balance and trying to figure out, “Okay, what am I comfortable saying no to?” I’m in the privileged position of having enough things going on and having enough financial stability to be able to say no, so where does it make sense to say no? Where does it make sense to say yes?

An example would be like Japan is a very expensive trip, and I was paid for my time there, but it’s always going to be more cost-effective to do something online. It’s sort of one of those I’ve never been, I love it so much, I’m willing to take a bit of a financial hit on that or whatever. It’s figuring out how much of that before it becomes a burden, that kind of thing. I would say balance, or that’s what I’m endeavoring to learn in this past year is, what does that look like?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm, and now I would say outside of the travel realm, is there anything in particular that you’re learning about now?

David Dylan Thomas:
My new hotness is really grappling with ownership. I mean, I’m finding that my talks, my work is drifting pretty rapidly into the political, so I talk about design, I talk about UX and content strategy, but increasingly the stakes, the things I’m talking about are things like Facebook’s impact in Myanmar. These are quickly becoming very political topics, and the stuff I’m reading, I’m reading currently Braiding Sweetgrass, and there’s a lot in there that’s really challenging me around ownership, like the idea of ownership and, where is it appropriate? Where is it problematic actually? Where is it actually doing more harm than good to have these strict notions of ownership?

A basic example would be if you think about colonial perspectives on Native Americans and taking the land from them. That presumes that Native Americans uniformly believed the land belonged to them, when in fact, many Native American cultures didn’t believe in ownership at all. It was sort of like, “Hey, those aren’t your strawberries or my strawberries. They belong to themselves and that’s it.” We don’t own things in that sense. Really, if you were going to do a reset, for example, to say, “Okay, what would reparations look like in the context of Native American land?” One version of that would actually be not giving the land back, but actually abolishing ownership of land, which is I think is a far more controversial, right…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… concept than just saying, “Oh, we’re just going to give all the land back.” That’s hard enough, but so we’re not giving the land back. We’re just saying no one’s going to own any land. I think that would freak people out way more, so that’s the kind of stuff that’s really got me excited and challenged in terms of what I’m learning about right now.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, especially in this country. I mean, manifest destiny and everything. You talk about ceding ownership and people get hot.

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
That is a hot potato to deal with.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, that is the, “Y’all ready for this conversation” meme? That’s…

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let’s talk, I guess, a little bit more about the work that you’re doing. I saw just recently that you spoke in Denmark at UX Copenhagen. How was that?

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh, it was fantastic. Copenhagen is nice, and it’s one of those conferences where the talks are great, but what’s really awesome is just the people, the conversations you have in between talks at dinner after. Copenhagen’s a great place to have those conversations. Helle Martens who runs it is so kind and so thoughtful and is a great host, not just hosting the conference, but hosting her guests, her speakers at the conference, everyone involved. What I remember most, though, about UX Copenhagen is really just the great conversations and the people I met there, which is to me like the highest value of any conference is not the talks, although I enjoy the talks, it’s the people. It’s getting to meet new people, getting to reestablish old relationships, and UX Copenhagen was great for that this year.

Maurice Cherry:
Had you done that conference before?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, that talk is actually historic for me. The book Design for Cognitive Bias comes from a talk called Design for Cognitive Bias, and the first time I ever gave that talk was at UX Copenhagen in 2018, which was also my first international conference. She invited me based on a podcast I did with Saskia Videler. She was like, “Oh, it sounds like you’re doing really cool stuff. Can you come to my conference and talk about cognitive bias in the context of like UX and content strategy?” I’m like, “Yeah, I can.”

I put together that talk, and putting it together was really where I found what I believed to be the spine of the book, even before I knew it was going to be a book, which is really this notion of not just, “Hey, here are these biases that our users have,” but, “Hey, here are these biases that we as designers have.” Really, this isn’t a talk about bias, this is a talk about ethics. When I figured that out, I unlocked that, that became what the talk was, what the book was, but all that started at that first UX Copenhagen I went to in 2018.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice, so this was kind of a good return to form in a way.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, it was kind of a homecoming, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, and now speaking of talks, you have a new talk that you’re doing now. Can you tell me a little bit about it?

David Dylan Thomas:
Sure, so this is a massive talk that I’ve been working on for a while, and it all started once, I don’t know what it was, but some social media company did something terrible. There’s way too many examples of that for me to remember which one it was, but I got mad and I posted something like, “I swear to God, my next talk is going to be called. “No, Seriously, F Engagement,” except I didn’t say F, I said the actual word…

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… and…

Maurice Cherry:
You can say fuck here, that’s fine.

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh, okay, so “No seriously, fuck engagement.” Of course, people were like, “Oh yeah, you should give that talk.” It was kind of a joke, but then I was supposed to give the closing keynote at An Event Aparts, which ends up being the final An Even Apart in San Francisco. I needed a new talk because I’d already given all of my other talks. We kind of went back and forth and I said, “Look, my new talk, it’s like super anti-capitalist. Are you sure you want me to do this?” They’re like, “As long as you have like actual positive advice and it’s not just a rant.” I’m like, “Yeah, I got great, great advice or challenges that I want to kind of put out there.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
The talk ends up being based on a quote from Martin Luther King which says, “We must rapidly move from a thing-based society to a person-based society or thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society.” This is something he said like 50, 60 years ago, and I basically start off by saying, “Okay, if we agree that’s a good idea, what is our role as designers, makers of things, whatever, in that shift?” I start by saying basically, “This is what a thing-oriented web looks like,” and I talk about things like Facebook and engagement and how the obsession with engagement could lead to things like genocide in Myanmar where they let lots of hate speech just sit up there because, frankly, hate speech is good for their bottom line. It increases engagement.

I sort of paint that portrait, and then I say, “Okay, what would a person-oriented web look like?” For that, I look to things like the Siksika and the Wyandot, who are Native American tribes that have different perspectives on just fundamental assumptions about humanity, basically that, “Hey, maybe you’re born having value and I don’t need you to have a lot of money for me to consider you having value.” You know what I mean? What happens if we take those assumptions and build the web based on that? I can point to a couple of different instances where people are kind of experimenting with that, but the whole point of the talk is we don’t have that web.

How do we build it? Really, it’s more of just like a challenge, almost like a design brief for the audience to say, “Okay, if we were to make these other assumptions about people and about how we should interact, what would we build? How would we build differently? Let’s go do that.” It’s the first time I’ve ever given a talk that’s more of just a challenge for something that doesn’t exist yet, as opposed to saying, “Hey, here’s all of this evidence from science about these methods you can use to make your stuff more inclusive.” I love that, but the thing that I’m really into now is this notion of, “Okay, what’s the next step?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I like that the talk is sort of putting the onus on the listener, the audience, whomever, to kind of come up with what the solution is. You’re pointing out the issue. You’re not giving necessarily a solution, but you’re saying, “These are the things that you need to think about so we can come to a solution.”

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah. It’s really challenging the audience to listen to themselves, frankly, because a big chunk of the talk I get very personal. I go into therapy that I’ve been through, I go into how I found value in literally writing down my values and trying to proceed from there. The only tangible advice I give the audience ends up really being around, “Hey, after this talk is over, I want you to go home and write down your values and ask yourself, ‘Is your work taking you closer to or further away from that?’ If it is getting you further away, well, what can you do to get closer?'” That to me is the beginning of that journey, so it gets very personal, too.

Maurice Cherry:
You know, I did a talk, it was 2020, maybe 2021, but I did a talk called Content is Subject to Change, and I had sort of come with… I guess I won’t say I came up with the idea on a whim, but I was talking about how content on the web is in this sort of state where nothing is really being sufficiently archived because the internet and the web itself was never meant to be a tool for archive. It was a tool for research. It came out of research institutions and how like the early web, the “Web 1.0” was really about research and discovery. Then, of course, Web 2.0 sort of ushered in user-generated content, and we’re sort of in the throes of, I don’t know, I guess we’re sort of limping into Web 3 with the way companies have been approaching the metaverse and such.

The reality is that users create and put so much content on the web. I mean, tweets, Instagram posts, photos, videos, et cetera, and none of that is really stored anywhere, not in a very active way. You can look at, or you can try to find articles from 10 years ago and all the links are broken. none of the images work if you can find the actual article at all. People point to the Internet Archive, but they’re just a small nonprofit. They can’t archive everything. They can’t even archive things in certain countries. They can’t archive Flash. I mean, Flash was everywhere. Now, Flash is a relic, and all of that stuff that was created with Flash is just like dust in the wind, essentially.

David Dylan Thomas:
I have an interview with Jack Dorsey that is-

Maurice Cherry:
Oh wow.

David Dylan Thomas:
… [inaudible 00:15:31] to Flash, and it’s such a tragedy because one of the questions I asked him is, “What makes you pessimistic about the web?” This is like 2008 or something. What makes you pessimistic about the web? What he said was, “I think it’s going to be hard to prove what is true.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Like oh my God. Not being able to just post that online every single time something blows up, like, oh my God, but yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, even to what you were mentioning there with what Jack said, look at now with deep fakes and AI and MidJourney and all sorts of stuff. Like what is real? I’ll see imagines on Twitter or whatever, and it’s like, “Wait, I think that’s real. That might be real.” It sort of is falling into that sort of uncanny valley, especially as the technology gets better. I say all of this to say I like the fact that you’re giving sort of a design talk that’s not specifically about, I guess, digital design, but more so the concept of design and how that relates to what we go through in society.

David Dylan Thomas:
Well, yeah, and truth be told, it’s a political talk. I don’t market it as such because I’m giving it at design conferences, although I did give it at a journalistic conference once, but it’s a political talk because the things I’m talking about, the things I’m recommending are for everyone. This is at the societal level, and it’s what King was talking about. King was talking about what he was talking, about not for designers, not for politicians, but for everyone.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
He wanted everyone to be involved i this shift, and he saw the need for it. I’m like I’m speaking to designers for the most part, just because of the milieu in which I work, but I’d be happy to give this in Congress, in civil activist organizations, in churches, in just stand on the street corner and yell it. This is something I believe in and that I think is applicable at a very, very universal level.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, and I think certainly as technology increases and as we start to… I mean, AI is pretty much already being used now by companies and a bunch of different things. Not to say that AI is like the scapegoat or the catalyst for the talk that you’re giving, but it’s important that more people outside of our profession know about this. They know that this is sort of, I have to say it, it’s sort of a condition of the world that we live in now. It’s like this is a thing that we have to contend with and it doesn’t just have to deal tech or just have to deal with design. This is a human problem.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and the thing I try to get across in the talk and in my work in general is it’s just a tool, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
I mean, the same database that was used to hunt down people for their medical debt, it’s like, “Hey, you got cancer, but guess what? I don’t care. You have have to pay these bills.” That comes from a database and hospitals, people go and buy that debt. These two guys who were running one of those companies that had those databases sort of had a moment of truth when Occupy happened and they flipped it and said, “Okay, now we’re going to use the exact same database to find people who owe medical debt and then forgive it. We’re going to use the exact same financial mechanism of buying that debt from hospitals for pennies on the dollar and then forgive that debt.” They’ve forgiven something like $6 billion of medical debt that way.

Exact same tool, exact same database, exact same like… I don’t know if AI was in there or not, but let’s say, yeah, why not? AI’s in everything, but it’s like that’s a very, very old story. There were examples going back to indigenous Peruvians who were doing similar things with taking the same tool for different purposes, so this is… When I see AI, yes, it’s scary, and yes, it’s doing all sorts of mischievous stuff, but it is the exact same story. It depends what you want to do with it, and you can use it for great good, or you can use it for great harm.

Maurice Cherry:
The reason sort of like I said that it’s good that you’re giving this talk or you want to give this talk outside of our industry is that more people need to be aware of the consequences of these things or why it’s sort of something that we’re bringing up as a point. AI has really blown up to mainstream, at least to the point where the media is really talking about it outside of specialty outlets. It’s blown up over the past nine months where now the creators of this stuff are testifying before Congress about what are the best ways to curtail this or to use this or something like that. It’s important that these are issues that we talk about now before they sort of spin out of control.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and I think that what I want people to do is not focus on the tool so much as the players behind the tool. There’s a great PBS Digital Studios channel that show, it’s not around anymore, but it was called Idea…

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, Idea Channel with..

David Dylan Thomas:
… Idea Channel…

Maurice Cherry:
… Mike Rugnetta. Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, fricking love that, and one of the episodes at some point they’re like, “Hey, we’re instituting this new policy on our show where when we talk about a new technology, we are not going to embody it, which is to say, we’re not going to say AI is doing this or AI is doing that. We’re going to say people are doing this with AI, people are doing this with ChatGPT, whatever that technology is because we don’t want to give the impression that technology is embodied, that it is its own thing. No, human beings are using a thing to do a thing. I feel like we need to keep our eye on that because if we point people and get hysteria around a particular technology, we sort of draw their attention away from the people because the people are the thing you need to be losing your mind about, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
You know, Elon Musk firing all the content moderators is the thing you need to be worried about, not Twitter per se, or I sat on a panel earlier about ChatGPT and content and people freaking out. “Oh, ChatGPT is going to take my job,” and I’m like, “Trust me, you do not need to be afraid of ChatGPT, you need to be afraid of shareholders. Shareholders are going to take your job hella faster than ChatGPT.” Shareholders have been taking people out a thousand employees at a time for the past two years. They’re the ones, but we’re not having this panic over shareholders, so yeah, I’m like, “AI, great.” It’s interesting, but the big story isn’t AI. The big story is who’s using it for what. The who is the big story.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Now, I first heard about you from your book Design for Cognitive Bias, which you mentioned earlier. For those who might not have heard about it, one, will include a link to it in the show notes so you can pick it up, but can you tell us a bit about the book?

David Dylan Thomas:
Sure, so the basic premise is that we have biases, our users have biases, our stakeholders have biases, and when I say bias, I just mean your mind has to take shortcuts just to get through the day. You have to make something like a trillion decisions a day. Right now, I’m making decisions about how fast to talk, what to do with my hands. If I thought carefully about every single one of those decisions, I’d never get anything done, so it’s actually a good thing that a lot of our decisions are made on autopilot, but sometimes the autopilot gets it wrong, and so the book is really… We call those errors biases, so really the book is saying, “Okay, if we accept that bias is going to be with us, what do we do? At the user level, what are some biases we can design our products in a way to either mitigate or maybe even use for good? How does that also play with stakeholders? How do we sort of use persuasion techniques to leverage biases they may have to steer our organizations in maybe more inclusive directions?”

Then, really, I think the most important part is our biases. How do we keep our biases from causing our users harm? All of that is in 92 quick little pages you can read, but yeah, that’s the spine of the book is this journey from our user’s biases, our stakeholders’ biases, and then our biases, and all the way through these very concrete examples and concrete methods to try to work with that.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I love that the book really emphasizes the importance of recognizing and understanding them because that’s sort of the first step to fixing them or to create in spite of them, I suppose, to make more effective and inclusive work to strive for DEI. Oftentimes these things are brought up only in a sort of DEI context, which I think gives some people, some people, gives some people permission to not think about it at all because they’re like, “Well, I don’t fall within the, I don’t know, BIPOC spectrum or whatever. Why should I have to think about this?” You know?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, which is actually the number one reason you should have to think about it.

Maurice Cherry:
Exactly.

David Dylan Thomas:
Right, right [inaudible 00:23:57] supposed to be, you know? No, and then the thing is like, yes, when people think of bias, one of the main things they think about is race or gender, which absolutely they should, like two of the most harmful biases out there, but it’s even things like, “Hey, stuff that rhymes is more believable.” If you’re making something rhyme, you better make sure it’s true. It’s things like that that are both within and without the realm of race or gender. Yeah, it is important at a global level to understand how these things work.

Maurice Cherry:
You know, that’s even something that I think about honestly with this show. I think about it in the context of podcasts in general. I remember I think I saw some study, it was either from Pew or from maybe Edison or something like that, but they were talking about how most people believe I think it was like 80-something percent of podcast listeners sort of get their news from podcasts. That’s what they believe over, say, mainstream media, which is really dangerous because anyone can put out a podcast. Just because you say some shit on a microphone does not necessarily make it true, and so I think about that even in the context of this show.

I’ve done over 500 episodes. I try to get as varied a swath of people as I can to talk about a universal experience, which is being a Black designer or a Black digital creator or whatever, and that is broken down across gender, sexual orientation, gender presentation. It’s broken down across so many different things, age, geography, industry, and I try to do that to not sort of introduce what I think people may already look at. They may look at all of the people that I’ve interviewed and say like, “Oh, you just talked to a bunch of Black people. It’s all the same.” It’s not the same. It has changed drastically over the years. We talk about a lot of different topics. It varies. Every person’s conversation is different because every person is different so…

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
… I understand kind of that need to recognize the bias so you can work against it.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and by the way, if people out there are like, “Oh, you just talk to a bunch of Black people,” I’d be like, “Have you met Black people? We don’t all agree. When was the last time you hung out with more than five black people and they all agree?” Are you kidding with this? When’s the last time you sat in a barbershop for more than five minutes?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Right? We agree? What?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Have you met black people? That’s funny. That’s a t-shirt right there. That’s funny. I like that. With everything that you’re doing, what does a typical day look like for David Dylan Thomas?

David Dylan Thomas:
No such thing. Well, okay, two such things, so one is the travel Dave where I am on a plane and I’m getting up in some new city and doing this weird mix of touristy stuff and my job. Those days look like this weird mix of I’m going to go check out this castle or this museum, and then I’m going to go rehearse. It’s very much like touring a comedian or a band. You go and you do the thing, but you also try to have a good life at the same time, or you meet people in town that live in that town that from the web or something. That’s travel Dave, and then there’s home Dave, which is I don’t do a schedule in the sense of at 9:00 AM I do this, at 10:00 AM I do that, but I do have a Trello where I just have my priorities.

It’s like the first few things I’m going to do is try to have… I like to wake up slowly, so I have a nice breakfast, watch some TV, maybe play some video games, maybe do some reading. Then, I’ll get into things like household chores like laundry or trash, or maybe help with the dishes and cleaning. Then, I might get more into things like, “Okay, let’s check some emails. Let’s go through all of that stuff.” That’s more of like depending on how the day comes out because I might have a meeting, I might have this, that that’s sort of fixed. Everything else that’s kind of liquid time that I can kind of play with is sort of like, “Okay, this is the next thing on the Trello that I want to get to.” Some days I’ll get through maybe laundry and the day’s over because there’s just too much other stuff going on.

Other days, I’ll be like, “I actually got through all 500 emails. My God, how did that happen?” That’s a little more fluid and it’s what I’ve learned over time works bests for me, both from an anxiety perspective, but also from just a functional perspective because I have the luxury of having a job where, with very few exceptions, my time is my own. I can choose how to spend my… I’m not required to be in a certain place at a certain time with very few exceptions like, “I have to be in that place giving that talk at that time, so that’s one hour that is a hundred percent accounted for.” For the rest of it it’s like, “You could be doing dishes. You could be meditating. You could be playing with your son. Any of those are options that are just as equally valid. I don’t have a boss saying, “Hey, why aren’t you doing this right now?”

Maurice Cherry:
Hmm. Yeah. I think with any sort of entrepreneur, that’s the challenging thing is balancing it, managing your time, and still getting stuff done within the midst of all of that.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and I’d say that’s my biggest challenge over the past year is really now that it really is much more fluid, making sure that I’m not over-optimizing for gigs, that I’m really making time to be there for my wife, to be there for my son, to be there for my family, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
Excuse me, and kind of give that its due weight and its due context because it’s really easy to fall into the trap of, I’ve found it, to fall into the trap of like making everything like a checklist…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… of like duties rather than look at the team effort of we’re a family and we have these shared goals and we’re each chipping in to work on those goals. Yes, an easy way to get closer to that is to have the sort of list of to-dos, but there’s also times to be flexible. THere’s also times to like see a need and just work on it. That’s hard for me because I am a very list-oriented person, so that’s sort of what I’ve been working on is how to be more present, frankly, for my family. That’s the new hotness.

Maurice Cherry:
Same, same. Right now, I was just talking to my Mom recently because Mother’s Day just passed. Her and I were talking and she’s telling me like, “Oh, I’m finally thinking about moving.” She lives in Alabama. We’re from Selma, Alabama, and I grew up there, moved out when I was 18. I’ve been here in Atlanta ever since. She’s lived there her whole life. Now she’s talking about moving to Dallas, and the first thing in my mind was like, “I’m about to project manage the shit out of this move because, one, I’m like, “I have been waiting for you to leave this town forever, and you are finally going to do it. We are making this happen.”

It’s also about being in the moment of like why she wants to do it now. She’s been retired for, let’s see, she retired at 62, she’s been retired for eight years now. She just turned 70. I’m like, “Now you want to move? Sure, yeah, let’s talk about it. Let’s do it. Let’s try to make it happen.” I have to resist my urge to try to really plan this and make sure this goes off without a hitch, but also make sure that I’m present for her feeling behind moving because, I mean, she grew up there just like I did, but she’s just lived there now her whole life and now she’s like, “It’s time to get out of here.” I’m like, “Okay, let’s make it happen.”

David Dylan Thomas:
Just for a second, can we just talk about the South? Because…

Maurice Cherry:
Sure.

David Dylan Thomas:
… being born “in the North,” I was born in Maryland, which is technically the South…

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

David Dylan Thomas:
… and is the South in a lot of ways. I grew up with this fear of the South, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
I see like… When I think of the South, I think of Mississippi Burning, right? Like that’s…

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

David Dylan Thomas:
… at the same time, I’ve been to the south a lot of times. I never really had any problems, and that’s where 80% of us are. Black folk live in the South. That’s where we are.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
I talk to people who have lived there their whole lives, or who lived in the North and are anxious to move to the South and I’m just like trying to get my head… I don’t even know what my question is, but it’s just sort of like when I hear, “Oh, she’s moving from Alabama,” I get that, to Dallas. Oh, that’s…

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… Texas isn’t awesome right now, but okay, you know?

Maurice Cherry:
Well look, her other choice was Florida, and I was like, “Well, that’s definitely…

David Dylan Thomas:
Ooh…

Maurice Cherry:
… not happening…

David Dylan Thomas:
… ooh.

Maurice Cherry:
… so…

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah. No, Dallas is better.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Well, I’ve been to Dallas. It’s better than all of Florida.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
The entire state.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh my God. Yeah, it was either Florida or Texas and I’m like, and even talking to her about it, I think honestly the main reason she wants to move is because her brother lives there, so her older brother-

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
… lives there with his family and he is extremely well-off. It’s like…

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
… “Okay, well, if you move there, if you move in with him or even in the vicinity of where he is, at least you’re together, it’s family. The main thing I’m excited about is that she’ll be in a city that is served by a major airport because I don’t drive and I don’t have a car, so me trying to get from Atlanta to Selma takes like a bus, a pack mule. I probably have to hitchhike part of the way. It’s not easy to get back home and I was like, “Heaven forbid there’s an emergency and I can’t get to you quickly.” If you’re at least in a city served by an airport, I can hope on a plane and take an Uber or a Lyft to get to where you are. That’s not a problem, you know?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, it was either Texas or Florida and I was like, “Well, it’s not Florida, so Texas it is.”

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and I’ve been to… I actually like Dallas a lot, but it’s just this… I don’t know how many Black people hold this special relationship with the South or hold… I feel like Black people just have a feeling, it may not be the same feeling, but have a feeling about the South, and it’s just endlessly fascinating to me.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m curious, what’s the fascinating part?

David Dylan Thomas:
Well, it’s just like I think I grew up with this myth in my heard that once you hit the South, it’s all Klan. You know what I mean? Like… How can you live there? I do. I get genuinely surprised. I have a brother who was living in Maryland and was like, “Oh yeah, I want to move further south.” Or I’ll meet someone else who’s sort of like, “Yeah, I was living in San Francisco, but I want to move back to North Carolina.” I’m like on the one hand, I kind of get it. Again, it’s one of those things I’m learning more about now, but on the other hand I’m like, “Yeah, but you know about the South, right?” You know?

Maurice Cherry:
Right, right.

David Dylan Thomas:
I think the part that’s fascinating to me is that as I interrogate that, there’s no real evidence that the South is any safer or more dangerous. If I think about all the shootings that have happened with Black people, they’re all over. They’re not just in the South. There’s plenty in the North, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
I do think… I don’t know. It’s me dealing with my own fear of white supremacy, and when I think of white supremacy I associate it far more at the South than I do with the North, even though there’s plenty of it in the North.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean, I can only speak on the South because I grew up here. I’ve lived here all my life. I do know that there is that perception, certainly because I have cousins that live in the North. Most of my Mom’s side of the family is in Detroit. My Dad’s side of the family is in Cleveland, and they’ve always kind of treated us as like the country cousins, you know?

David Dylan Thomas:
Mm-hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
Like for whatever that means, but i think there is that perception. Granted, I mean, I grew up in Selma, which, I mean, I think now certainly within the past maybe like 10 to 15 years has started to become something that’s in the regular zeitgeist because presidential candidates go there and there was a movie about it and all this stuff. I can tell you, when I first came to Atlanta in ’99 from Selma, people thought that I meant Salem, Oregon, because they had never heard of it.

David Dylan Thomas:
Wow.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, yeah, which is weird…

David Dylan Thomas:
Wow.

Maurice Cherry:
… because like when you grow up in Selma, you are not divorced from the history of the Civil Rights Movement at all.

David Dylan Thomas:
Right.

Maurice Cherry:
It is present. It is not just something that you learn about. It is everywhere. You are a byproduct of it. I’m the first generation outside of Bloody Sunday. Like it’s everywhere, I remember, oh God, was this fourth grade, fifth grade? When did I have my social study teacher? I think this was fourth grade, my social study teacher Mrs. Manz had shown me… Well, it was like a field trip. She had shown us a spot downtown where her blood was spilled because she got hit by a police officer 20-something years ago. You’ve never divorced from it.

It’s always around you, and even growing up in Selma, I mean, I’m using Selma as kind of a bit of an outlier here, but you are fully aware of the gravity of racism and the Civil Rights Movement and all that sort of stuff because you’re in it. You know, “Don’t go to this part of town after a certain time, don’t go to this grocery store.” You just know that, and even as politics change and you see how people change because of politics, and Selma’s another good example of this, we had a racist white mayor from Martin Luther King, Jr. Times like the ’60s up until he died right around 2000, Joe Smitherman. He famously called Martin Luther King Martin Luther Coon, like…

David Dylan Thomas:
Hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
… and like the fact that he still got elected year after year after year is strange in a city like Selma, particularly when Black people are the majority, but he died, and so the city got its first Black mayor. Many of the white citizens were so incensed by that that they closed businesses, moved roughly about five miles up Highway 22 and started their own city called Valley Grande.

David Dylan Thomas:
What?

Maurice Cherry:
It sounds like something out of The Simpsons, you know? Like…

David Dylan Thomas:
This is why I’m afraid of the South.

Maurice Cherry:
… but I mean, it’s one of those things where you are cognizant of it and aware of it and you kind of just… I don’t say you kind of just deal with it, but it’s because you are aware of it and it’s such an ever-present thing that you know how to navigate within it.

When I left Selma and came to Atlanta, I mean, came to Atlanta, went to Morehouse, the school that King graduated from, and being in and around all of that history and everything, it’s like you’re just aware. You just know this is the world you live in. I think sometimes when people think of HBCUs, there’s this perception that you’re in a bubble in some ways, and in ways you kind of are. You’re in a bubble of being around only Black people and certain aspects of the diasporic African experience because it’s not just African-Americans that go to Morehouse.

Then, you get out in the real world and you meet other people and you know that it’s different. It’s just hard for me to describe it, I think, in a way because it’s just something that’s been ever-present. You just know how to deal with it because you see it in so many different ways. I mean, just racism in general, sometimes it’s super overt, sometimes it’s covert. It’s just all this kind of a thing that you recognize. It’s a cognitive bias to put it… to kind of like, I guess, bring it back to your book and everything.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s just something that you know about, you’re aware about, and because you know about it and you’re aware about it, you know how to effectively work through it, work around it, or work to include it in some way. I mean, even what I do with this show and in the design industry is very interesting, we’ll just put it that way.

David Dylan Thomas:
Hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
I would say my time growing up in the South and in Selma and everything has taught me to deal with a lot of the stuff that I deal with in terms of just discrimination from this show that it’s just like, “Okay, I know that’s going to be a thing. I can work around that.”

David Dylan Thomas:
Right.

Maurice Cherry:
I can deal with that. I’m not going to let it stop me or bog me down or get me down in some way. It’s just a general awareness of it to the point that I know this is a thing. I’m just going to have to kind of work through it, work around it to try to make it better or to try to circumvent it or something. You just… It’s just always a thing that’s present. You just know that it’s always there. Even your mentioning about like the Klan, I mean, Selma has a Klan hall. One of our housing projects is named after the former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan…

David Dylan Thomas:
What?

Maurice Cherry:
… Bedford Forest. One of the… It’s not an all-white school, but it’s pretty much an all-white school. One of the schools there is John T. Morgan, which is also named after a Klansman. It’s a thing that you know about. Even one of the cemeteries has a Klan monument in it. You know that it’s there so you don’t fuck with it. You don’t deal with it. You know like this is a thing not to deal with, so you just work around it or don’t deal with it. It’s kind of hard to describe, but

David Dylan Thomas:
No…

Maurice Cherry:
… but yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… no, I think I see, and what it reminds me of is I talked to a guy from Singapore…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… and Singapore does not have free speech.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
You talk shit about the president, you are not necessarily going to go to jail, but you’re going to get sued into oblivion. I was asking him about it and it was this thing where it was difficult for him to answer because it was sort of like asking a fish about water. It was just sort of like, “Of course they are.” You don’t fuck with it, but you also don’t necessarily… It wasn’t really affecting his day-to-day. It wasn’t like every morning he wakes up and thinks, “Oh God, I wish I could say shit about the president.” That’s just not a thing, and I don’t know, it’s interesting, but what you said makes perfect sense.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Even that sort of description you mentioned about asking a fish about water, that’s just how it is. Sometimes things happen and you’re like, “Well, that’s just how it is.” Some of it is unfair. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that you just deal with everything and just sort of shrug your shoulders about it, but at least you are cognizant and aware of the fact that it is happening. You know why it’s happening, you know the cause from which it stems. It’s not just like out of the blue. You know this is how people are like. I mean, I can give you another example. Now, we’ll bring the interview back to you, but I know you asked about me, but…

David Dylan Thomas:
No, that’s cool.

Maurice Cherry:
… but I mean, when I was graduating high school, my guidance counselor was doing everything in her power to not want me to go to college. She wanted… The one white guy that was in our class, all-Black class and one white guy who happened to end up becoming valedictorian, but that’s a whole other story, but was doing everything to get him into college, giving his applications and all this sort of stuff.

Then, she’ll turn to me and be like, “Well, why don’t you think about learning a trade? You could go to the community college. I know your mother works there. My husband works there. You could go there and learn a trade. People always need air conditioning. We live in the South. What about HVAC?” I’m like, “Ma’am, I have a 4.5 GPA. What are you talking about? Are you daft?” I mean, this is also at the time when computers really started to be put into libraries and stuff like that, so I just did a lot of research on my own, but she was actively not wanting me to go to college like…

David Dylan Thomas:
Hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
… not helping with applications. She would give… The guy’s name was Gary. She would give him application vouchers for application fees and stuff and…

David Dylan Thomas:
Wow.

Maurice Cherry:
… then she would tell me about, “Have you thought about welding? Welding could be a good trade for you.” “Ma’am, I’m taking AP Calculus, what are you talking about?” Welding, so it’s just stuff that you deal with and you’re like-

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
… “Whatever.” Yeah, that’s a tough nut to crack, but let’s bring it back to you since we’re talking about beat. Let’s talk about your upbringing and your backstory.

David Dylan Thomas:
Uh-huh.

Maurice Cherry:
You’re right outside of Philly right now in Media. Is that where you’re originally from?

David Dylan Thomas:
No, so I was born in Columbia, Maryland. It’s the city that’s basically right in between D.C. and Baltimore, and I grew up… My mother and father split when I was very young. I didn’t really get to meet him, get to know him until I was like 25 years old.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
That’s very formative, and my mother was amazing. She really always made sure that we knew, like me and my sister, we knew we were loved and we knew that we could be whatever we wanted to be. Nothing could stop us, and she also really, really went to great pains to make sure we were educated, so for all of those things and much more, I’m always eternally grateful to her. She passed in 2011. From a very young age, I was writing, I was reading at a young age. Very smart, doing al of the smart Black kid things, and having to sort of like… It’s interesting. My earliest experiences of racism were actually coming from Black kids who didn’t-

Maurice Cherry:
Hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… understand why I talked the way I do, why I didn’t talk Black and that was… I think every Black person has the story of when they realized they were Black. That was it for me. It’s like the way I was talking was different from the way the other Black kids were talking. Weirdly, that’s how I found out I was Black because I wasn’t talking the way I was supposed to with this flat, not African-American vernacular we would call it now, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
That was also sort of an interesting wrinkle for me growing up, but I was always interested in filmmaking. I still do it today and I did it ever since high school, and that’s the sort of content in my content strategy trajectory really comes from that storytelling aspect. I went to Friends School of Baltimore, very prestigious school. Again, my mother went to-

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… great pains to make sure I was able to get in there, went into debt for that, and then ditto for Johns Hopkins University, which I originally went for electrical engineering, and then found out I was bad at that and switched to writing seminars and kind of got a concentration in theater and film.

I’m there, this is like the mid-’90s, and I’m armed with this like really solid… Basically I know how to think now that I’ve been through college. I know how to think and I know how to write, and for four years I’m just working in a record store because if you remember in the mid-’90s, there was like yet another recession slump. Nobody had any jobs-

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… so for four years I worked in a record store, which was actually kind of fun, and I just worked on whatever independent movies came to town. Then, after that, I finally got a job that more or less had to do with my major, which was being a online writing tutor for a CTY, Center for Talented Youth’s online writing courses, basically giving junior high and high school students these college-level narrative nonfiction courses on CD-ROM. That’s how long ago we’re talking.

Then, they go into an online forum to submit their work and to their workshopping, workshop those things. That’s when I really kind of fell in love with the web because what I was seeing the web do was take people, students who lived all over the world and might never meet each other in person, and they get to talk about sports and homeschooling and all these other things. That was amazing to me. That was just… The potential for the web to bring people together was where I really fell in love with it, and I’ve worked in tech in one form or another ever since.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, just to kind of give an idea, I’m trying to sort of place this within the context of history, I’m guessing this is roughly around like early 2000s?

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, so I worked at CTY from 2000 to around 2004.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. Yeah. The web was really, I mean, it’s hard, I think, probably for people now to really know about this or think about it because, I mean, it’s been 20 years, but the web back then was just exploding in terms of new experiences, new things to discover. The technology itself with browsers and such were growing at such a rapid pace. I think about that time so fondly. I mean, I was in college right around the time I graduated in ’03, but that was such a magical time to be into the internet and the web because the big agents that are around now did not exist. It’s hard to think of an internet without social media, without Facebook, without Twitter, but I don’t know, maybe it’s rose-colored glasses. I don’t know. I think about that time so fondly with just the web being a fairly idyllic place. I might be romanticizing-

David Dylan Thomas:
No, I think-

Maurice Cherry:
… it a bit.

David Dylan Thomas:
… I don’t think you are. Actually, my new talk, I start out talking about personalization and how today it is almost impossible to find a website that doesn’t have a login, right?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
You go back to the early web, zero websites had a login. It was just this big art gallery-

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… and you’d have things like Homestar Runner, which to this day has no login option. The Homestar Runner you see is the Homestar Runner I see-

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… but every other website, you see a different version that’s personalized to you, and there are real psychological stakes for that because it basically makes it seem like the entire world revolves around us.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
You could be forgiven for believing that because on the web it does. Literally, every website you go to is custom-made for you, so that was not always thus. The early web was just a place where a lot of weirdos were just putting up like, “Here are my opinions about Star Trek. Here is this weird animation. Here is a bunch of things about badgers that’s like saying, ‘badger, badger, badger over [inaudible 00:48:23].'” It was sort of like if you think about the creativity you see in a place like TikTok where people… Some people are there being very money-minded and trying to do a business, but some people are just putting up weird, fun shit, you know?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
That’s the early web, it’s just here is… Yeah, there’s a definite difference there, and there was a gold rush that came where people started realizing, okay, they can make a lot of money off of this by taking what was like the open web, something like an mp3, which is a format for music that isn’t owned. It’s free. Anyone can use it and changing that into a format that’s proprietary so, “Oh, if you want to play that movie, you have to do it on this browser, in this website, using our technology, and if you try to copy it, God help you.”

That was how we moved into the web we have now, which is much more capitalistic, much more predatory, and it’s basically, “Every way we can possibly make a buck off of you we will.” The early web was more like, “Hey, look at this new toy. What can we do with it?”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. The early web was also just a place where you could play, I guess play… I mean, I’m using play in sort of a broad sense, but you’re playing without consequence. Like you said, there’s no… Aside from there also not being any logins back then, there was no tracking really. Google Analytics wasn’t a thing. The way that you found other people were visiting is if you had a hit counter on your website, or if you had a…

David Dylan Thomas:
[inaudible 00:49:46]-

Maurice Cherry:
… guestbook-

David Dylan Thomas:
… web counters. I’m like-

Maurice Cherry:
… and someone signed it, you know? You didn’t know.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
There wasn’t all this sort of stuff to sort of track your movements across the web and like, “Oh, you went here? Where did you go next? Where did you go after that? What purchases did you make?” None of that existed, and you could really… The thing that I… It’s funny. I tell this to my… I have two goddaughters, they’re nine and twelve, and I tell them that back when there was Windows 95, how when you logged off there would be this message that would pop up that would say, “It is now safe to turn off your computer.” There was a time when you could turn things off.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
TV had a stop time.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
At 12:30, those test bars came on and you went to bed. There was nothing else to sort of keep you up. You know what I mean? It’s so different now with everything being so tracked and analyzed and stored and sold to other companies. It’s just the web now is so different, and I think about that a lot in the context of “creating content.”

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
You’ve been writing, you’ve been making podcasts, you’ve done web series, et cetera, and I do want to talk about your podcast work, but you’ve been creating content online for over 20 years. How have you seen content online change during that time?

David Dylan Thomas:
There’s a dichotomy there because the original sin of the OpenWeb, and Anil Dash talks about this in a talk called The Web We Lost.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
The original sin of the OpenWeb was that it was very, very privileged. If you did not know how to code at some level, it was very difficult to create content on the web. What Facebook did, what Twitter did, what all these walled gardens did was make it easy to create content, make it easy to put it on the web.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
In exchange for that ease, we gave up data. The plus side of that was a lot of poor people got to make content. I don’t know another way to say it. If you look at Vine, back in the day before it collapsed, there was some amazing BIPOC content going up there, especially BIPOC humor. There was so much like I would say sort of innovative work being done, and some of that has bled over into TikTok as well. There are people who are creating content today who could not have made it otherwise because of Facebook, because of Vine, because of Twitter, because of TikTok. The trade-off was, “Oh, now we have your data. Now we can track you everywhere.”

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
I don’t think it had to be that way. I think that governments could have stepped up to say, “We think it’s important that people who aren’t privileged are able to make content. I think that different business models could have arrived that were better than that, but I don’t think any of that was likely because we live in America. We live in capitalist country in a largely capitalist world where people are incentivized, are told from a very early age your highest value, the best thing you can do is make money, so the likelihood of having a web that is sort of built on the idea of lest as many people responsibly make content as possible is not likely. This is not going to happen. The way I’ve seen content change over time since I started doing it is it is way easier than it ever, ever, ever, ever was-

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… but it has come at the cost of data. It has come at the cost of misinformation. I will always, if I have to choose between a privileged few being able to create content and a whole lot of people being able to create content, I’m always going to choose a whole lot of people, even if it means the odds of disinformation going up. The fact of the matter is, the odds of disinformation don’t go away if it’s only a privileged few. In fact, depending on who those privileged few are, the odds of disinformation skyrocket.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
You know what I mean? So-

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I think we’re definitely seeing that now with Twitter’s recent change in ownership.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, so that’s a lot of why I talk about what I talk about now is this idea of I want people to understand what that balance is like and that it is good for lots of people to be able to create content. We don’t know how to deal with that yet. Somebody was pointing out so people talk about these unprecedented times, and I always get kind of like, “Really?”, when people say something like, “Yo, we’ve had.” There’s a lot of people who’ve been living in precarity for a long time now. It’s just more middle class people. More white people are having to deal with black people shit than ever before and they’re calling that unprecedented. I’m just…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… [inaudible 00:54:26] that, like poverty and health problems and all these other things. Other people have had to deal with that before, but what I do think is unprecedented is two things.

One, we have never, ever, ever, ever had 8 billion people on the same planet at the same time. Just hasn’t happened, and two, they have never all been able to talk to each other at exactly the same time. We’ve never had many too many communications at scale instantly ever, like ever, ever, ever. That’s never happened, so why should we be good at it? Why would we expect we’d be even remotely good at it? Especially if it’s all being done through a capitalist lens. It makes sense that we’re fucking this up, but I think we need to focus up on, how do we do this? I think it’s important to preserve our access to each other. I think it’s critical, but I don’t think we know how to do it yet.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, you mentioned something here just about the fact that we’re dealing… I mean, I think the unprecedented part of what you’re saying is just that, yeah, we don’t really have those mechanisms available, even though communication now is easier than it has ever been just because of the technology. You can text, you can FaceTime, you’ve got WhatsApp and Instagram and all these sorts of things, but I don’t know if the tools are necessarily facilitating the conversations in that way.

David Dylan Thomas:
Well, and I think it’s really, really important to understand that the societal work has to come first.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
There’s a great Twitter thread where someone talks about how this comes from actually an episode of The Orville, I guess, but there’s a character… The Orville is kind of like a Star Trek kind of show. There’s this character from an impoverished planet that asks the Federation, basically the spaceship, “Hey, why don’t you give us all replicators?” A replicator, for those who aren’t geeks like me, basically just a device that can just make anything you want. It just out of thin air it just makes it, so food, clothing, whatever. It just makes it. “Why don’t you give us all replicators and then we can be as peaceful as you are?” The guy from The Orville explains, “That you got it backwards. The only reason we were able to develop the replicator technology in the first place was because we got over our shit.

We were able to actually support each other to the point where we could coordinate to make something like that. The guy goes on, the Twitter thread goes on to say, “Look if we had replicator technology, if Twitter developed replicator technology, they would license it. They would make it so that if you don’t keep paying your subscription fee, or give us data for advertisers, it would stop working. Different companies and then different countries would be like, or different political groups would be like, “Oh, replicated meat is ruining the meat industry, so we’re going to say that replicated meat is bad and evil and I’m going to run on that platform so I can get votes.”

He basically breaks down all the ways that the greatest technology in the world can be ruined by people. People have to get their shit together first. Then, you can do good things with the technology. Yeah, we’re going to keep using social media for shit because we the people have shit that we need to work out. We have trauma that we need to get over. We have all these sort of agreements we need to actually make with each other before we can even have a hope of actually using the technology in a positive way.

Maurice Cherry:
Amen to that, amen to all of that. Society has to work through their own biases and other shit before we can really start to have the technology serve us, hopefully in a positive and constructive way. Just to kind of bring it back to the earlier conversation we had around content, to you, what does content strategy mean now? I mean, you’ve been a content strategist since before the title really came to be in this industry, and like I said, you’ve been creating content online in many different media for over 20 years and across several different fields, I should mention. To you, what does content strategy mean now?

David Dylan Thomas:
Organizational change. I was talking to a friend of mine who’s doing some work with the G20, and long story short, she was talking to someone about trying to get more buy-in around content strategy with her stakeholders and the person was like, “Don’t call it content strategy. Call it what it is. It’s organizational change.” Even from day one, so like 10 years ago I get my first official job. I’d been doing content strategy before, but I get my first official job where it says, “Content Strategy” on my business card. Within a week, I turned to one of the strategists at the organization and I ask then, “How much of our job is just doing interventions?” Hey says, “90%.” I’m like, “Oh, okay, I get it now.”

Yeah, I do content audits and I do this and that, and I built content models and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I make these artifacts, but at the end of the day, none of that means anything if I can’t work out your political problems, your organizational problems, your biases, all of the stuff, half of the examples in my book come from real-world experience I had working with clients, which is why I think it’s valid, frankly.

I’m glad I went through those experiences because I don’t think my book would make any sense otherwise, but yeah, it is people stuff. It’s messy people stuff, and content strategists are at a great position to witness and document the outcomes of the messy people stuff. If you have no taxonomy, if you have paths that don’t make any sense, if your language only makes sense to certain people in the organization with certain seats of power, all of that is just the outcome of people stuff, messy people stuff.

When you’re really… I’ve never seen a content strategy work lest there be organizational change that preceded it. If you did not fix the organizational problem, the best content model in the world isn’t going to help. I mean, the same thing with UX, same thing with dev. I think content strategists in particular get exposed to that first if they are kind of looking because they’re kind of the first ones under the hood looking at, “Okay, let’s take a look at your content inventory. Let’s take a look at your… Let’s do an audit.” You get to see those outcomes firsthand…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… but yeah, so I think call it what it is, organizational change. I spent 10% of my time as a content strategist creating these like artifacts like from an effort perspective. I spent 90% of that effort trying to convince you that it works.

Maurice Cherry:
Right.

David Dylan Thomas:
That’s what I’ve seen is a shift toward understanding that, or at least personally what I see, and that’s the other thing. I don’t feel comfortable commenting on content strategy like per se because I haven’t worked with a client in three years. It’s like, “Don’t ask me, ask the people on the ground what content strategy is.” My observation is that it is becoming clearer and clearer that content strategy is, in fact, organizational change, and to varying degrees, absolutely UX, absolutely design, absolute… There is no service industry in terms of like, “I am building you a website,” or, “I’m helping the organization do X, Y, or Z.” That is not on some fundamental level organizational change. That’s the shift I’ve seen.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, as I mentioned, you’ve done a lot in your career, events, web series, talked about podcasting. I have to ask about the podcast because you’ve done several. You’ve been host, you’ve had your own podcast. When did you really start getting into doing that?

David Dylan Thomas:
I was in podcasts before it was cool. Do you remember Odeo?

Maurice Cherry:
I remember I was on Odeo.

David Dylan Thomas:
Do you know what Jack Dorsey was up to before Twitter?

Maurice Cherry:
I remember. I do, I do. I remember Odeo in like 2004-2005. Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
My friend, Kevin Smokler, wonderful author and filmmaker in his own right, convinced me or we partnered up. Basically he’s my best friend, so we partnered up and said, “Hey, let’s do a podcast about movies.” We’re just going to talk about it because we’re both huge movie buffs. We called it Talking Pictures, and our first episodes, I believe, were posted on Odeo. Then, we moved on to other things later. That’s back in 2006 or so I started doing podcasting. I’ve never done it with any sense of like, and again, this is that arc. The early days of the web, you just did stuff because it was fun. You weren’t trying to get followers. You weren’t trying to make a fortune. You were just, “Hey, I can post something, and like hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of people could potentially see it.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Wow. You have to understand, that was new. The only way to hear your voice on the air was to go on the actual radio. There was no like… The idea of just putting something online and having other people witness it that you will never meet was just a totally new thing. It didn’t matter if it was five people or 5,000 people. There just wasn’t as much a thing as it is now where it’s like, “Well, if I don’t get a million followers, what’s the point?” Yeah, and then many years later, I did The Cognitive Bias Podcast because basically I had been reading up on cognitive biases ever since I saw a talk by Iris Bohnet called “Gender Equality by Design.” It blew my mind, and she was the first one to start connecting the dots for me around here is this bias and here’s this impact, and here’s how design influences that.

It lit a fire under me to learn about cognitive bias, so I literally went to the The Rational Wiki Page of Cognitive Biases and just looked at one bias a day. I would pick a bias and I’d learn about it. Next day, go on to the next one. This turned me into the guy who wouldn’t shut up about cognitive bias, so my friends, and I remember one friend in particular who worked for Ted at the time was like, “You should do a podcast.” When someone who works for Ted is like, “You should do a podcast,” you listen. I’m like… Okay, at the time, I had a job that I only worked four days a week, so I had Fridays off, and so I was like, “I’ve already studied all these biases. What if I just do a podcast where I talk about one bias? Then I just would kind of reacquaint myself with a bias, make some show notes, and then just turn on the mike and talk.

I could wrap that up within an hour, and one hour every Friday was super manageable, so yeah, I just started posting it. Again, I wasn’t with the intent of like, “Oh, I’m going to grow this big audience.” It was more like, “Hey, this would be a fun thing to do,” and people tell me that they’re interested. Yeah, and it just grew and grew and grew and grew. It was never like… I never got to the point where I was like, oh, getting advertisers, or anything like that because frankly I’m too lazy. I just don’t have the energy to… I don’t care about that enough to build a whole business around it, but I care enough to do this thing, and it led to all these other things like giving the talk in Copenhagen, like writing the book. My experience from career perspective is that that’s how it works.

You may have a plan, you may not have a plan, but if you are diligent and lucky, and I stress the lucky because I don’t want people to think, “Oh, some people are just better than others and the ones who have all the hustle get the good shit.” No, the ones who have the hustle are persistent and that helps if the lucky thing happens, but there’s also luck. There is privilege, like I was born lower middle class to a mother who really cared about education, which put me in a better position to be able to get education and so on and so forth. There are people in my life who have cared about me and supported me…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… so that wasn’t something I planned and then happened because I’m so fricking awesome. No, it happened because of just all of the chaos theory things that happen in life-

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
… but when those things happened. I was prepared to say, “Yeah, I will do a hundred episodes of this podcast. I will go out and give all these talks.” I’ll… I think it’s a mix of those two things.

I always stress that because I won’t want people to forget about privilege. I don’t want people to forget about privilege. I don’t want people to forget about the social structures that limit our opportunities, and I really, really, really don’t want people to fall into the trap of thinking some people are just better than others. That’s one of the most horrific doctrines…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… in the history of the world. I’m not even a little bit overstating it. I always stress that, “Hey, I’m not here because I’m so fucking awesome, I’m here because I tried really hard. I care about these things. I was passionate about these things. I did it in a context where very fortunately these other people were in my life and I was born in this particular place at this particular time.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
There are a lot of things that I didn’t have control over that played in my favor, as well as some that played against me, but it isn’t just don’t think that some people are better than others. That’s the thing I really try to avoid when I’m telling my story.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I’m so glad that you mentioned that just kind of in the context of the work that you do and how that places you with where you are now. It’s a combination of things. This wasn’t something that was just handed to you. I mean, we’re talking about privilege, too, but also it’s kind of by privilege, I don’t want to say by privilege, but it’s also by fact of just being early, being around at the time that this technology started to pop off in a way where people could really take advantage of it and make livelihoods out of it. I think about some of the early projects that I’ve done, the Black Weblog Awards, and in 2015 I did a whole podcast about tea for a year. I just did like…

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh wow.

Maurice Cherry:
… short bursts, less than five-minute episodes about tea, one episode a day. I called it The Year of Tea…

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh.

Maurice Cherry:
… because I only did it for a year, and I could do that now. Maybe people would pay attention to it, maybe they wouldn’t. I hate the fact that content creation is now under not just the filter of algorithms, but also the lens of like how many likes or shares or whatever it gets.

The early web was just so much about doing things because you could do them and no one else was doing them, so you’re like, “Well, I’ll just do it and maybe it becomes something, maybe it doesn’t, but I’ll also not doing it for it to try to become something. Like…

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
… it’s… I don’t know, it’s hard, I think, to explain in the current context because so much of what’s done now is just filtered through engagement.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s as you kind of said earlier about fuck engagement, but everything is like, “Well, are people paying attention to it?” Who cares? Are you doing it because you like it? You know? Like… oh yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Who is being helped? I think that’s the other sad truth about the early web is it wasn’t particularly, I won’t say exclusively, but it wasn’t necessarily… It wasn’t helping people, I think, necessarily in the way that there’s the potential for it to help people now. Some of the early shit like Ushahidi was awesome where it was like this tool for helping people know where to avoid violence during the Kenya elections of 2007. It became this disaster relief tool. I think people… I wanted to see more of that out of the early web. I was perfectly happy to see us just kind of fuck around and do cool shit, but I also wanted to see us, and I think some of us were, and I think it got harder in some ways after the web got commoditized. I want a web that where the metric isn’t how many people are looking at my shit, but how many people am I helping?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
That’s the web I want to see. That’s the metric I want to see.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, that’s something with Revision Path, I’ve certainly… I don’t want to say I’ve come to terms with it over the years because when I started this, it really was just honestly as a continuation of a project that I did back in 2005. I started the Black Weblog Awards in ’05. In ’06, we had a category that was Best Blog Design. I was a blog designer at the time, designing movable type and WordPress sites. I was also working at AT&T at the time. I had other friends who were designers that were Black designers, and I just thought we weren’t getting any recognition in the industry. The magazines at the time, the conferences, we were not there, period. I wanted to do something about it, but couldn’t do it then.

It took me seven years until I started Revision Path, and now I’ve done that for 10 years as of this year. I’ll still run across people that think like, “Oh, this was just a fluke.” Like, “Oh yeah, you know, you’re just an overnight success.” Yeah, overnight since 2005. Come on, you know? I think about it in that context of like, “Is Revision Path ever going to be as poplar as, say, like Design Matters or 99% Invisible?” I don’t even look at the success of the show through that lens.

David Dylan Thomas:
Mm-hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
I don’t. I mean, I could and then I would be like, “Oh, the show is failing.” I don’t think about it that way because we haven’t reached that level of, say, audience or general I would say design community knowhow or knowledge or penetration, largely because people, honestly, they see the word Black and they’re like, “It’s not for me. I’m not interested. Whatever.” Which I’m fine with, but the impact that the show is having on the design industry, I know that there are teachers that teach the class in their schools, so there’s a new generation of designers learning about current Black designers, that those current Black designers that I talk to never encountered other Black designers.

I’m helping to change the conversation around who can be a designer, the visibility of what a designer looks like, where a designer can be, what a designer can do, et cetera. I have to look at it in that sort of lens of this is the impact that it’s having and less about whether or not it’s getting a hundred thousand downloads or something like that.

David Dylan Thomas:
We never know truly the impact we have, and you’re reminding me of this little Twitter contest that happened at least a decade ago where Ashton Kutcher and Wil Wheaton basically said, “Okay, we’re each going to ask our followers to do some kind of charitable thing.”

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
I think the way it broke down was… I don’t know, Kutcher had a much, much bigger reach than Wheaton, but Wheaton, a higher percentage of his followers actually did the thing, so it may have been technically more of Kutcher, a larger number of people did the thing from Kutcher’s clan, but if you did it by percentages, maybe 50% of Ashton’s people did something. Whereas, like 90% of Wheaton’s people did something. It’s sort of like if I had to pick, right?’

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
I’m not sure. I feel like maybe I’d rather be Wil Wheaton in that scenario because the people who are following you mean it. You know what I mean?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
It’s this tighter relationship, and increasingly I find myself defining success through relationship rather than through numbers. I’m working on this movie right now and I’ve decided the number one metric for success for the film isn’t going to be how much money it makes, it’s going to be, what are the relationships like during and after? Do I get to meet more people and form these new relationships? Do I get to strengthen existing ones? Because, A, that’s people I can work with again, and most of the experience making the movie is going to be working with people, so why would I not want that to be pleasant? B, I would much rather have that than have the movie just kind of fizzle versus have the movie be a huge success and we all hate each other when it’s over. That is not interesting to me.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
Where I’m at now, that’s just not interesting to me. Yeah, I feel you in terms of trying to not fall into the trap of it just being about the numbers and comparing yourself to other podcasts. I mean, my latest podcast, I’ve done two seasons of my new podcast called Lately I’ve Been Thinking About, and it’s nobody. There’s like… it’s like five people have heard it. The people who have heard it love it, but it’s sort of like compared to… Even compared to myself, it’s a failure in the sense of I don’t think it has nearly as much, as many plays as my Cognitive Bias Podcast, but I don’t care.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas:
I actually am in some ways more proud of it because it’s the first podcast I’ve done that’s actually accessible. I’ve got a transcript now and I paid for the transcripts and I’ve got good… There’s certain things that I’m doing as a podcaster that I think is better podcasting than what I did with the first one, so…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… to me, it’s not as cut and dry as like, “Am I getting more likes than Joe Rogan?”

Maurice Cherry:
Right. I’m hoping to get to that. I mean, I don’t want to say I’m hoping to get to that. I still am in the mind of creating things just to make them, and if it does, well, it does well. If it flops, it flops. It doesn’t necessarily mean it was a bad idea. Maybe it’s bad timing, you know?

David Dylan Thomas:
Mm-hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
We did a design literary anthology we started in 2019 called Recognize, where we wanted to sort of cultivate like BIPOC design voices, et cetera. We did that in 2019. I think it went pretty well. The pandemic happened in 2020. That pretty much killed it, so we did one more year in 2020. I think I tried to do it in 2021 and it wasn’t working. It did not have the impact that I wanted it to have. I’m going to bring it back one day. I’m going to find a way to do it again because I still feel that it’s super important, especially as I start seeing more Black designers and Black creatives like writing books and stuff. I still want to do that because there was a time, and not too long ago, I’d say maybe roughly, I don’t know, maybe five, six years, maybe a little bit longer than that, but I feel like there were prominent design voices online. Not necessarily authors, but like you have venues like A List Apart. I remember when Designer News used to be a thing before it turned into a graveyard, but there used to be places where you could read writing about design.

David Dylan Thomas:
Mm-hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
There was AIGA, had Eye on Design. I think there might have been a couple of others. Now you see things and they’re mostly just glorified tutorials, which is not to say that’s a bad thing, but who’s the next generation of design writers? The current generation is either, I mean, not to be morbid, but they’re either dying or nobody’s paying attention to them anymore. Who’s going to be the next generation that are going to be talking about the things that are important? I feel like it’s going to be us and our generation, like you, of course, with your book and the works that you’re doing, hopefully me with this podcast, but there are more design voices out there that need to be cultivated. I feel like it’s going to mostly be designers of color that are the ones that do that.

David Dylan Thomas:
Mm-hmm.

Maurice Cherry:
How do we bring back Recognizing the Future? I don’t know. I’ll have to noodle on it some more, but I still think it’s important because it’s just important. I still think it’s something that needs to be out there. You know, did it do well the first time we did it? No. It’s just a timing thing. I’ll find a way to bring it back.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah, and I hope you do, and frankly, I think that the… I’ll say women and people of color are going to be like the new design voices, and I think they’re Sara Wachter-Boettcher, Eva Penzey Moog, Sheryl Cababa…

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… all these folks are doing great work, but I think that the new design voices are also going to be political. I think that’s the difference. I think that’s…I think it’s going to be increasingly difficult to tell the difference between good design voices and political activists. I think…

Maurice Cherry:
Oh yeah. Hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… that is… and frankly, there are periods in design history, like look at Bauhaus, there are periods in design history where that has been the norm where… I mean, design has always been political and sometimes it’s more pronounced than others. I think, I hope, we’re entering into a time where it is this thin, thin line between kind of activist voices and design voices, especially as we come into this period where we’re really realizing racism is designed, sexism is designed, transphobia is designed. All this injustice is designed-

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm.

David Dylan Thomas:
… and can be undesigned. Social equality can be designed. People treating each other humanely can be designed as well, but that there’s this, I don’t know, increasingly, and maybe this is just the voices I’m listening to, but increasingly I’m seeing design and discourse becoming more human and less technical.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’m definitely starting to see that as well. I mean, I look at what I did for… I mean, I’m trying not to keep bringing it back to me, but I’m seeing it with things like, where are the Black designers? Which was kind of an offshoot of a talk I did in 2015. Mitzi Okou ended up doing a conference around it for two years starting in 2020. Now, it’s sort of grown out to be its own thing. They’re partnering with agencies and stuff, so I’m starting to see the byproducts and the effects of the work, and that to me is how I measure the success of what I’m doing or the impact that I’m having is that it’s reverberating out into the industry in other ways.

If I do something and it doesn’t go well, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the idea was bad. Maybe it was just the execution or the format or the timing, like those… Again, with the way that the modern web is and everything being geared around algorithms and numbers and such, just because something isn’t seen doesn’t mean that it’s not in some ways a success.

David Dylan Thomas:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. What keeps you motivated and inspired to keep going?

David Dylan Thomas:
A couple things. I mean, people mostly. I have a wonderful wife, a wonderful son, I have wonderful friends, and just seeing them thrive or meet challenges helps. I think what also helps, frankly, is once you study things like cognitive bias in the human mind, you start to get a really great respect for uncertainty. Uncertainty can be scary, but it can also be invigorating, and so one thing that makes me hopeful about the future is that I am terrible at predicting the future and that, in fact, everyone is terrible at predicting the future. That’s just something we know. We’ve looked. People suck at it. I used to fancy myself a futurist until 2020, and then it was like, “Oh, it was adorable how much I think I could predict about the future.”

Now, I’m like, “Oh, something happens, Ron DeSantis will do some ignorant shit in Florida,” and I’ll be like, “Oh my God, we’re all doomed.” I’ll feel my feelings, but then I’ll remember, “Oh, right, I have no fucking clue what’s going to happen.” I don’t. I really don’t, for better or worse. I cannot accurately predict the dystopia and I cannot accurately predict a utopia. All I can do is what I can do, and what I can do is I can go around and get people fired up about inclusive design, get people fired up about treating each other like humans. That’s something I can do. I can go make my art, make my movies that I feel are going to have an impact and express these things and that might even bring me some healing. I can treat my family well. I can support my friends. Those are the things I can do. What I can’t do is predict the future, and that means I have just as much right to hope as I do to despair. I have equal access to both of those things because neither of them are accurate.

Maurice Cherry:
What advice would you give to someone out there that they’re hearing your story, they’re hearing about your work, and they sort of want to try to go into that direction? Not necessarily following your footsteps, but they want to be a more active designer as it relates to the issues and the things that you’re talking about. What advice would you give them?

David Dylan Thomas:
I would give them the advice that I give at the end of my newest talk, which is say sit down with a piece of paper and write down what you believe in at the level of like for me, it’s compassion, creativity, curiosity, connection, open-mindedness, spirituality. I just write these things down. Literally, I have them in a Trello, like straight up they’re in a Trello. Then, I look at them from time to time pretty regularly, actually, and I remind myself what I believe in. When I have to make a decision, like a hard decision, I look at that and I say, “Well, which course of action is more compassionate? Which course of action favors creativity?”

It’s not always an even mix. Sometimes it’ll be like, “Okay, well, this decision would be more compassionate, but less creative or whatever.” I have to… It gives me a framework for approaching the world and it reminds me that it isn’t all chaos, that there are things I can control because when you sit down to write those values, that’s you. You get to decide what you believe in. You may not get to decide how much you get paid, you may not get to decide how other people treat you, but you get to decide what you believe in and that the degree to which you want to strive for those things. Honestly, everything else I’ve done aside from the just chaos of it all that I couldn’t control began from those things. I would say that’s the best first step.

Then, after that, I mean, if you want to know what I did, what I did was I doubled down as much as I could on the things I was passionate about to the degree that I could and I chipped away. I basically reached a point where rather than think about my day as, “Here’s my day job and here’s the time I spent doing what I love, and here’s my hobby or whatever, or my passion.” Instead, I broke it down into, “How much of my time am I spending doing what I love?” There were times during my work day I could, in fact, do 5% of that work day was doing something I love. Okay, maybe next year it’s 10%. Maybe next year it’s 15%. I chipped away, chipped away, chipped away until now, I’m at the point where I’d say 90% of my day is spent doing things I love, and then there’s laundry. That’s a 20-year journey, by the way, at minimum, so don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t happen in a week.

That, I’m speaking about that abstractly because I don’t have a path. There is no like, “Oh yeah, Dave, that’s who you follow if you want to become a podcaster/speaker/filmmaker/workshop-giver, I guess author.” That’s the thing, right? No, it’s just a bunch of shit I do and I love it and I’ve worked very hard at it, but it’s like no, there’s no… I didn’t sit down one day and say, “Oh, well, first I’m going to do a podcast, and then that’s going to get me some talks, and then that’s going to get me a book deal.” No, I didn’t know any of that was going to happen. I seized the opportunity when it did happen, but I didn’t know it was going to happen. I just knew I really care a lot about this, so I’m going to start talking about it.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What do you want the next chapter of your story to be?

David Dylan Thomas:
I mean, in terms of impact, it’s like I said, I want people to treat each other better and anything I can do to make that happen, but concretely, I’ve got this movie I’m making. It’s based on a true fact, which is that beneath Washington Square Park in Philadelphia and Urban Park in Philly there are buried the bodies of hundreds of enslaved people. What if they came back one night as zombies, but they only ate white people? Movie is called White Meat. I have finished the screenplay. I did a table read-

Maurice Cherry:
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to… I want you to keep going. You completely have gagged me by talking about the zombies and called it White Meat. Oh my God. Continue, continue. Please continue.

David Dylan Thomas:
Oh no, no, so I did a table read in December with professional actors and an audience. It killed, and I’m now putting together a budget, maybe a pitch deck, so I’m moving forward with that. That is one of those if it takes me until my dying day, I’m working on it kind of thing, but I’m hoping it’ll only be like five years, so that’s one piece. When I’m done that, I kind of maybe have another book in me because this new talk, it keeps getting longer. It’s like this actually might be a book or one-man show, so I’m going to keep doing that, and I’m going to keep doing what I do. I’m going to keep going out and giving these talks and these workshops, but yeah, that’s where I see my energies focused over the next few years is really do what I do on the daily, but I really want to make this movie. That’s the number one creative priority for me right now.

Maurice Cherry:
A zombie flick that kills. I like that. Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you, about your work and everything? Where can they find that online?

David Dylan Thomas:
The one-stop shopping for me is daviddylanthomas.com. You can buy my book there. You can sign up for my mailing list. You can hire me to speak. All the good stuff is there.

Maurice Cherry:
All right, sounds good. David Dylan Thomas, it has been an honor and a pleasure to have you on the show. I had a feeling that we were going to have a great conversation. We had, I think, a tremendous conversation. I just want to thank you for the work that you’ve done, the work that you’re continuing to do around not just helping us designers, people, et cetera, to uncover our biases, but also find ways to take that knowledge and then put it into action and to service to help make the world a better place. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

David Dylan Thomas:
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for all the hard work you do with this podcast. Appreciate it.

Sponsored by Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit

Brevity & Wit is a strategy and design firm committed to designing a more inclusive and equitable world. They are always looking to expand their roster of freelance design consultants in the U.S., particularly brand strategists, copywriters, graphic designers and Web developers.

If you know how to deliver excellent creative work reliably, and enjoy the autonomy of a virtual-based, freelance life (with no non-competes), check them out at brevityandwit.com.

What do you get when you combine top notch graphic design and illustration talent, the intensity of punk music, and world class skills in facilitation? Why, you get this week’s guest — Kendall Howse! As we head into this festive holiday week, I couldn’t think of a better person to share their story and remind us of the power of inclusivity and empathy.

Our conversation began by exploring Kendall’s current work as a senior marketing designer at Red Hat. From there, we talked about employee resource groups at tech companies, the crisis of consumption in the Bay Area, and Kendall’s time growing up in Boston before moving out to California. We also discussed Kendall’s work as a facilitator with Frame Shift Consulting, his community work with Bay Area Black Designers, and his Black liberation hardcore punk band Mass Arrest. For Kendall, creating the space to thrive is key to who he is, and I hope that’s a message we can all take into the future. Happy holidays!

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry: All right. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Kendall Howse: My name is Kendall Boo Boo Howse. I am a marketing designer for Red Hat, and I’ve been designing for a long time.

Maurice Cherry: How did you get started at Red Hat? What does your regular day-to-day look like there?

Kendall Howse: I’m on a really fantastic team that was called creative strategy and design, but we’ve just absorbed the brand team as well. I think now it’s brand and creative, but it’s a team of about 30 to 40 people including graphic designers, animators, filmmakers, 3D illustrators. It’s really a dynamic team.

Kendall Howse: Within that team, I do a lot of graphic design, digital graphic design and illustration, for everything from web assets to print assets to our major annual trade show conference called Red Hat Summit where we cater to about 8,000 attendees and do a full-immersive three-day experience with that. There’s a lot of variety to the work, which I really appreciate.

Maurice Cherry: Now, before that you were at CoreOS, which got acquired by Red Hat. Is that right?

Kendall Howse: Yeah. Yeah. At CoreOS I was hired. I was an employee in the 60s. I was the third designer. At that time, the design team was doing all of the marketing design and all the product design. It was a software company, one of the first companies in the Kubernetes space. We were doing everything from social media ads to conference booth work, but also doing the user interface to the actual product. After a little while we ended up splitting the design team into marketing and product, where I then became the sole marketing designer.

Kendall Howse: I was supposed to build the team, but we ended up doing a hiring freeze because, unbeknownst to me, we were in the process of being acquired. When that happens, you stop spending money. I then spent the final year of CoreOS as the only person doing all marketing and sales design, but that led to us being acquired by Red Hat, me being acquired by Red Hat. Then about eight months later, Red Hat got acquired by IBM. A lot of little fish being eaten by bigger fish.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. Has there been a big shift in the work or the work culture since the acquisition?

Kendall Howse: There has. CoreOS was a really small startup. I think in the end we had 130 employees, after four years. Very San Francisco, very venture capital, Y Combinator. A lot of hoodies. Young. Really young, too. Most of the employees, I would say, were under the age of 30. When we were acquired by Red Hat, Red Hat had been around for 25 years. Red Hat is based in Raleigh, North Carolina, so opposite coast, and was like 13,000 people, so a big cultural shift.

Kendall Howse: When we were acquired, as often happens, the majority of the original employees, within the first year, left for other opportunities. There was a massive shift of culture, not for the worse in any way. I mean, there’s I think appeal to a lot of people, the idea of working at a startup, but the thing about startups is it’s very touch-and-go. It’s very insecure. Whereas a big company…I mean, like a startup, you don’t have HR until you have to have HR, right? Where a big company like Red Hat has worked a lot of this stuff out literally decades ago, and so it’s a much more secure environment. It’s a much more fully realized idea.

Kendall Howse: Going from being a team of one to being on a team of 30. I’m someone who much prefers to work on a team. I’m really inspired by the work that other people do. I also really like contributing as much as I like creating. For me it was amazing to suddenly be on this big creative team. Culture change, yes. For the worse, no, definitely not.

Maurice Cherry: Okay. Now, as I was doing my research about Red Hat, I saw they have…it’s funny that you mentioned this, about these larger companies having it all worked out. They have a whole nine-page white paper that addresses culture, diversity and inclusion at the company. In that paper they talk about one of their five main D&I communities. One of them’s called BUILD, which is a acronym for Blacks United In Leadership and Diversity. Now, you co-lead this group, is that right?

Kendall Howse: I do, yep. Employee resource groups are I think a really important thing. When I was at CoreOS I had co-founded Blacks At CoreOS, which was our black employee resource group. There were three of us. We all worked on different teams and didn’t even live in the same cities. Just having that, being afforded the space and the resources to come together and advocate for ourselves and our community, was really important.

Kendall Howse: When we were acquired by Red Hat, that was the first thing I looked into. There was some trepidation from me being in the Bay Area, living in Oakland, walking down the same streets as the founders of the Black Panther Party. That spirit is still very alive in Oakland. Being acquired by a company out of the South was for me pretty intimidating, or I just didn’t know what to expect.

Kendall Howse: That was the first thing that I did, was try to see if they had a black employee resource group, and that’s how I found BUILD. BUILD, as I understand it, was Red Hat’s first ERG. It’s the pilot program. It started organically, where a few brothers who were software engineers started getting together unofficially and had their own IRC chat or some such. At a certain point…and I don’t know exactly how it developed…they were able to approach someone in the company and say, “We think that this is something that Red Hat should be supporting officially. It should be open to not just black employees but also allies as well, and should have some executive sponsorship.”

Kendall Howse: It’s great to be a part of this ERG, because it is the most established at the company. I think it’s about three years in, but it’s also the pilot program. We’re the ones who…there’s a lot more pressure…I would say…on us…but we are the ones who are forging the way for all of the other employee resource groups. I mean, now, like you said, we have five. We have a queer employee resource group which is hugely supported. We have one for veterans, one for indigenous people. I don’t know if we have a Latinx one.

Kendall Howse: I don’t know, but all of which is to say like it’s great to see that this is a movement. The employee resource group movement is something that’s growing, and my trepidation about working for this Southern company has shifted severely, because this ERG is really, really well funded.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. I’m thinking about what is the nexus point in a company where they decide that they want to do this. Because you said when you started it, CoreOS was a small company. BUILD was initially just three people. Do you think that there is a certain time when a startup should be taking this thing into consideration when it comes to diversity and inclusion?

Kendall Howse: Yeah. I mean, especially for startups, day one. I mean, it should be a part of the culture. We talk about diversity is something that tech companies and people who work in computation find really appealing, because it’s really quantifiable. I mean, it’s easy to say we have X number of a subgroup. Inclusion is the hard part, because it’s not measurable, it’s not quantifiable, and it’s not visible to the people who aren’t a member of the marginalized group that’s being included or excluded. My white manager can’t know if I feel included or not. I mean, unless she asks me, right?

Kendall Howse: I think when the D&I big push was happening in San Francisco five years ago, the focus was really on diversity and hitting numbers, but not about shifting culture in any way. That’s a top-down decision, which means it’s a lot of cis, straight white men, just filling their numbers, and that proved to be ineffective.

Kendall Howse: With employee resource groups, what you’re doing as a company is you are giving the people who are the marginalized group the resources to be able to advocate for themselves. We know, through community-building going back a hundred years, that’s the best way. To say, “You know what, I don’t know what, say, a woman from El Salvador needs to feel welcome and included in an environment. Why don’t I give her the tools and the resources to be able to start advocating for herself?”

Kendall Howse: In that way, we can build a more positive and inclusive culture, because then the ERGs too will work together. There’s five ERGs at Red Hat, but we’re constantly working with each other as well. Not only are we learning how to advocate for ourselves, but we’re also learning what our colleagues, who are of another marginalized group, also need.

Kendall Howse: I think that when you’re forming an organization, whether it be a startup, whether it be a Meetup group, whether it be a Slack channel or anything like that, you should be thinking that as early on as possible, like day one, for sure.

Kendall Howse: Honestly, I think if you start a company, your first black employee, be like, “Hey, do you want to have a employee resource group? What do you envision might be helpful for you? Like how can we open the door to more people like you, so that we can have true diversity and have people feel welcome being here?”

Maurice Cherry: It feels like there’s been a shift with that, because I remember. You’re talking about five years ago. I know that a lot of the language around then was about not putting the onus I guess on the employee, in a way, to do the D&I work, that it should be a top-down thing. Which I still agree that it should be, but now it seems like putting those resources in the hands of employees is a safer bet.

Kendall Howse: Yeah. I think you bring up a really good point there. I don’t know about you, but I as a black person have definitely been in a lot of situations where it’s been shoved into my lap. “Well, I don’t know, you figure it out.” It’s a lot of unpaid hours. It’s a lot of unsupported work, like where maybe the chief of operations is saying do this, but your direct report manager is like, “Well, you don’t have time to do this.”

Kendall Howse: I think the key to good D&I is executive sponsorship. It has to be supported at the highest ranks, so that your manager can’t tell you that you can’t work on it. Your PM has to pencil in time, because it has to be the company has to show from the top tier that it’s deeply dedicated to this work.

Kendall Howse: It can’t be leaving an individual or a small group of people to seem rogue, to seem, for lack of a better term, special needs. That isn’t the case. The executive leadership has to say, “No, this is a part of the core tenant of this organization, of this community that we are building, and including our customers. All of this is core to our values, and so we’re going to put in the time, the money, the resources, to make sure that this happens.”

Kendall Howse: Now, one interesting thing that happens in a lot of companies is the executives are still straight, cis white men, and so I don’t know of a single ERG…actually, I probably know a couple, but the vast majority of the ones I know of, including my black employee resource group, it’s technically led by a white man, because our executive sponsor is a white guy.

Kendall Howse: Now, I could see situations where that can be problematic, but in our case it’s actually great, because there’s an opportunity where I know that there are people. I mean, at this point there have been so many leaked Google memos that we know that there are people who aren’t a part of these groups that are really taking offense, and that are really having an issue with the fact of these groups. They just don’t understand the value and the necessity of these groups. To have someone like them saying, “Well, look, I’m okay with it. Not only am I okay with it, I sign off on it. I support it. I’m facilitating this thing.” I think that that representation is really important as well.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. Five years ago, to that point, you said earlier there were a lot of these really big tech companies…Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft…that were all about, “yes, we’re going to put our numbers out there and we’re going to try to bring in more people of color to diversify our workforce.” I think all of these companies have certainly had great business success. Like Microsoft bought LinkedIn and Github, Facebook doubled their monthly active users. They’ve had all this business success.

Maurice Cherry: Then when it comes down to diversifying their workforces, the percentages are still single-digit, plus-or-minus rises or falls. You would think that if you put all of that money and resources into this, if after five years you didn’t get anywhere, you would think that someone probably wouldn’t have a job. It doesn’t seem like there’s any consequence for not diversifying.

Maurice Cherry: I even know in some circles…I mean, this conversation I think was coming up a lot last year…where people, mostly white people, were vocally being like, “I’m tired of hearing about D&I.” Like, “Oh, how convenient.” “I’m tired of hearing about diversity.” “Oh, that’s nice.”

Maurice Cherry: The inclusion part is…I liked that part where you said that diversity is quantifiable, inclusion is not, because it’s all about once you have those diverse hires in the door and they’re working for you, how do you keep them? What does that attrition data look like, once you’ve brought these people on? It seems like it’s probably falling in a lot of these companies.

Kendall Howse: I think too that a lot of these companies…like imagine being on a product team, where you’re shipping constantly and things. You’re working in scrum, you’re doing these three-week sprints. There are real milestones that you’re hitting constantly, right, and everything is deadline-driven. Then you have this vague thing called D&I that doesn’t have a goal, not a clearly-stated goal. It doesn’t have an established timeline.

Kendall Howse: It’s just this vague thing, that a lot of people…there’s so much eye-rolling, of majority-group people and minority-group people. Eye rolling, like, “Ugh.” “Oh, yeah, I went to your website. It looks like you have one black employee, but you made sure that she’s in every single photo.” Like a lot of that eye-roll, and I think that…I mean, I blame the leadership. I blame the lack of direction. I have not been in the boardrooms where it was decided that a lot of these companies were going to focus on diversity and inclusion, and really diversity. To be honest, no one was talking about inclusion.

Kendall Howse: I don’t know exactly what prompted it, but there were these things that were happening, these scandals that kept hitting the news, that were terrifying people. Uber was the first one that I remember being really big. Google I think was next. There’s that, “Oh, we have to do something about it,” but there are all of these stories and things I experienced myself where maybe somebody comes in and gives a slideshow, and says like, “It’s really tough to be a woman in the workplace,” and like…and then, okay, what do you do? One company I worked at, they just set up a Slack channel called Diversity, but there were no [inaudible 00:17:05] and there were no guidelines. There was no mediator. There was no expert. There was no…there was nothing.

Kendall Howse: There were some horror shows that occurred, and then there was just a lot of like really well-meaning people really hungry for solutions, wanting. I mean, like straight white guys who were like, “How do I help? How do I advocate? How do I become an ally?” There was no one there, and no system in place to help guide them. It doesn’t surprise me at all that there are people eye-rolling. I remember one time standing up front of the company at the Monday morning all-hands check in.

Kendall Howse: My colleague and I, who is a wonderful designer, she and I got up and were giving a D&I presentation, and this is pretty early on in my D&I work journey. I just remember one of the engineers who does customer support…so he’s a problem solver, he’s solutions oriented…says, “Well, how many black people should we have?” It was like, “I don’t know,” you know what I mean? He wanted to know what the goal was.

Kendall Howse: I was so at the beginning being like, “Oh, we need to open the doors,” but he was asking to what ends. I think that if solutions-based people aren’t given a goal, then it’s nothing. It’s nothing. I mean, it can just sit in the ephemera, just hover in the atmosphere and just never been taken seriously, because there’s nothing to solve against. You’re not trying to beat anything, beat a deadline, beat a quota. It’s just…it means nothing.

Kendall Howse: When you take a lot of these companies where their mission statements would be so vague or fluffy, where it’s like, “Change the world with positive influence.” You’re just a grocery delivery app. How about just [inaudible 00:19:14] groceries to people efficiently? When you already have these vague notions, I think a lot of people just think of it like marketing-speak or think of it as just like it’s bullshit.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. I wonder certainly, I think, as we’re going now into a lot of companies starting to partner with other organizations, or like I know Google most famously. I think it was back in maybe 2015, 2016, they did like this partnership with Howard where there’s Howard West out at Google’s campus, and so some of the freshmen from I think the computer science department were able to go there and learn and study from Google engineers.

Maurice Cherry: I’m interested to see how some of these programs, what the dividends are from some of them, because a lot of them I feel like have certainly been started in the wake of these horrible numbers that are coming out with workplace percentages of diversity. Then like you say, there’s also these horror stories of people that have worked there and then it goes south. It’s in TechCrunch, it’s in Mashable, it’s in USA Today. You’re hearing about it, and I don’t know really how much of an effect that has on hiring. For some of these companies…to be honest, I think Facebook probably might be one of them…they might just brush it off, like, “Oh, okay. What’s next?”

Kendall Howse: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the reality is, around here at least, I don’t think that there are people of color or queer people or queer women of color. I don’t think that they’re turning down jobs at Google because they’ve heard it’s a toxic culture. I’m sure that there are some, but the reality as I see it is that there’s been…the pipeline argument has just been around forever, and I’m of the opinion that it’s been disproven over and over and over again.

Kendall Howse: People hire themselves, in one way or another, so frequently. They want to hire from the program they went to in school, because they know those professors. They know what’s being taught, they know what the challenges are, and they know what the results. Or they’re hiring from the company that they worked for last. What was the team they were on at their last company? Well, they’re going to poach whoever they can. They’re establishing their own pipelines the whole time.

Kendall Howse: I think that, to really have a diverse enough space that diversity no longer is even a topic, you have to fundamentally change. You have to break up the pipelines, and so it’s going to happen on a lot of different fronts and it’s going to happen at every single level, from the individual contributor all the way up to the CEO. Everybody should be, in one way or another, focused on it, in order for it to work in any sort of timely fashion.

Kendall Howse: Some of these programs, like working with Howard, yes. I love that about BUILD at Red Hat. They’re down south, they’re in North Carolina. They are in HBCU heaven. There’s so much outreach going on in partnership with the local HBCUs. That is how we change pipeline.

Kendall Howse: A thing that I was working on at CoreOS…we were acquired before I was able to realize it…but our intern program was building, building, building. It was getting bigger and bigger. It was all from the same university, or one of three universities. It was where the CEO and CTO went, together, where the head of one of the engineering teams went himself…he went to Rochester, they went to Oregon…or Stanford. That was it. It doesn’t get more homogenous than that.

Kendall Howse: I mean, so we were just getting like 17, 18 of these interns in, and they all were…they all knew each other. They’re all the same. We’re in the Bay Area, where there’s this crisis where the tech industry is eating up everything, and you have an area that had such great black representation, Latinx representation, Chinese and other East Asian and Asian Pacific Island representation, yet none of these people are working in what’s becoming the only industry in town.

Kendall Howse: When I was a kid, especially immigrant parents, black parents, would be like, “Oh, you’ve got to grow up and be a doctor, or you’ve got to grow up and be an engineer.” Now it’s like you’ve got to learn to code. It’s not a generational thing, because most of these people, it’s not like their parents had been doing this stuff. It’s like their parents were building websites in the ’60s. The industry the way we know it didn’t exist.

Kendall Howse: Here they are, trucking in all of these interns from all of these places. Meanwhile at their feet, literally, like on the ground floor of the building, is a cafe full of people from the neighborhood, from the area, that are working there with absolutely no access.

Kendall Howse: That’s when I was pushing it to try to partner with some of the local colleges, of which there are many, and try to get a pipeline built in. It’s like, “All right, for every two Rochester kids you bring in, bring in one from Oakland. Bring in one from Berkeley. Bring in just one, because there’s no reason to believe that your own path that you’ve taken, your own experience, is the only legitimate one or the best one.” It’s that type of thinking that really limits the opportunities for others.

Kendall Howse: Will working with Howard make the company better? I don’t know, but is it a good idea? Absolutely. Absolutely. I support it. These programs shouldn’t be left to stand on their own. They should be a part of a fully-supported, fully-fronted …

Kendall Howse: A part of a fully supported, fully fronted, I guess, war on homogeny. Wow, that sounded really dark.

Maurice Cherry: I feel you’re coming from though, like you have to be able to utilize those resources if you want to make that change.

Kendall Howse: Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s wild to me that like HBCUs aren’t even being talked about around here or women’s colleges. It’s not, it’s like…

Maurice Cherry: Yeah.

Kendall Howse: I just wish there were more black people at Stanford. Well, I mean I wish that too, but there are lots of other colleges to look at. You just… You got to go out, you got to you got to put in the work of finding people.

Maurice Cherry: I remember doing some consulting with, I think this is with Vox back in like 2015, and I had just made mention like, “Oh, well have you all done anything at Howard?” And it was like, you could see people’s minds explode. Like, “We never thought of that”. I’m like, “Really, it is not that far from y’all. Like you’re headquartered in DC. Like it’s not that far. Go to a career fair. Talk to some people”. It’s, I don’t know, it’s interesting. Just to kind of switch gears a little bit here because you mentioned the Bay Area. Did you grow up in the Bay Area?

Kendall Howse: No, so I lived in… I grew up in Boston, in and around Boston, and I moved to the Bay Area 11 years ago. It was a 2008, I moved to the Bay Area.

Maurice Cherry: Okay. So growing up in and around Boston, were you exposed to art and design kind of in your childhood?

Kendall Howse: I was, so I was raised a musician and my brother, who was a couple of years older than me, is a phenomenal illustrator. He was that kid that was a little… He was shy and so he’d be in the corner with a pen and a sketchbook at all times and now he’s really kicking off his career as an illustrator. But he’s just unbelievable. And so I was always… He was my older brother and my hero. I was very influenced by what he was doing. And probably I started going to shows where was like 11. Joined my first band when I was 12 and at that time, this is 1991, we were broke. Everyone that I knew that was from the area, we were just poor kids. And so when we were starting our first band, somebody had to make a t-shirt, somebody had to design the tape cover, somebody had to make the flyer and being influenced by my brother and being kind of aesthetic minded, I was oftentimes the person who was doing it and I loved doing it.

Kendall Howse: And so I was doing it for myself at 12, 13, 14, and then other bands are asking me to do designs for them. And then record labels and tour managers are having me do posters and t-shirts and record covers for them. And so that kind of kicked off design as a hobby/passion for me for years. But I didn’t have, by my estimation, I didn’t have access to college. And so this was a side thing that I did for a long time, for about 20 years, 15 years, something like that. And it went from then bands, labels, tour managers to then small brands, coffee shops, tea brands, things like that, and then I just found that I was getting more and more into it and then… And just devour whatever books I could read on the topic.

Kendall Howse: Whenever I met a person who was practicing design, who was also interested design. It just, it really like blossomed for me into, really, obsession. And then I hit the point where I was tired of being a barista/bouncer/bike messenger/a chef and just really wanted to focus on the design. But for me I was a pretty latecomer. It wasn’t until my mid twenties where I was able to focus on design directly and with the school and was able to refine my craft.

Maurice Cherry: Nice. It’s interesting how I think a lot of designers tend to get into this through music in some sort of way. I was actually, I interviewed Erica Lewis. We’re all in the same slack group. So I interviewed Erica Lewis and she’s a jazz singer and she was talking about how she got into doing design through like being exposed to like posters and album covers and stuff like that. And it got me to thinking actually about this, as we’re sort of talking about design a little bit here, how websites have all started to kind of look the same. I heard this in a podcast from Adobe, they have this podcast called Wireframe and so one of the latest episodes, they were like, “Oh, you know, all websites are looking the same,” with the rectangular hero image and the parallax scrolling and how in the early days of design, like in the, I don’t know, late nineties, two thousands, et cetera, probably a little earlier than that, a lot of design was very free form because you got on the web and you realize you could make anything.

Maurice Cherry: A lot of that stuff, at least from when I remember, back in the old days of table based design, you basically made something in Photoshop and you export it in slices and it came in these tables and you uploaded it and that was your website. And you could really kind of go wild with how it looked because you weren’t… I guess you weren’t really designing so strictly within the concept of a grid, even though that’s what tables are. You were able to kind of be a little bit more free form, but now that everyone is kind of speaking the same design language through, I would say, bootcamps and education and just the way companies are now taking design more seriously. Now everything is starting to kind of look the same. Which is, it’s an odd concept when you think about it because, I would say, digital graphic design is still a fairly new thing.

Kendall Howse: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially compared to poster design, for instance. But I think, I feel like I’m of the last generation of the LP, where as a kid, I would get a record and put it on, and this 12 and a half by 12 and a half thing, sometimes with a the poster inside. I would just sit there for hours and hours and hours looking at this art and looking for the Easter eggs. And it was okay for there to be hidden elements. It was okay for there to not be immediate comprehension, that you could have… You could have a period of your brain trying to unlock the message. And I think early days of web were very much about that. I think there was this idea of personal expression, much like jazz poster art, for instance, where you could break rules or bend rules at least.

Kendall Howse: And that was really exciting for designers. I think the big difference is, it’s not necessarily as exciting for the viewer on the web because I think that most of the web, we’re using very differently than poster art or LP art. And I think that when I talk with newer designers, I think that I spend a lot of time trying to talk about separating the ego from the work because you’re not designing for yourself and it’s not necessarily representative of your personality. You’re aiming for clarity, you’re aiming for accessibility, you want, you have a client that has a message, a point of communication. And so you want it to be clear. You don’t want the brain to have that time of trying to decipher the message. You want it to be right up front.

Kendall Howse: And so it makes sense to me. Though, I know that for some creative people it’s a real bummer that the space looks so, I guess kind, of prefab. But from an accessibility point of view, it makes a lot of sense. And I think that that’s where the web is maturing in so many ways, where it’s not just… Early days of web was just backend engineers that knew HTML and putting things up and a lot of it is just, “Oh, it’s just good enough,” or, “Oh, you can read this,” but it’s like, “Oh really? You did like yellow type on a black background? Like okay, like that’s not necessarily the best answer”. And so as much as I bemoan, the lack of creativity, I applaud the increase in accessibility and more understanding that there are just so many different types of people that are trying to get the information that meeting them where they’re at makes sense.

Kendall Howse: Now because of that is why I designed professionally, but then I do my poster art and stuff on the side because when I’m designing, I’m not designing for myself, but when I’m doing my poster art or my own band’s work, that gets to be completely my ego. That gets to be my complete expression of my own personality and I get to keep the two separated, which I think is important.

Maurice Cherry: Now, when you were deciding to do this professionally, you said you kind of came into it in your mid twenties was your family supportive of you going into this route?

Kendall Howse: Yeah, totally. In fact, my stepdad is a graphic designer himself. He runs Anchor Ball Studios and he was a great resource for me too. Yeah, I was [inaudible 00:34:53] my first couple of years I did a lot of freelance work with him and so really helped me learn about that separation, really helped me learn the difference between designing a punk flyer and expressing myself and my subculture and speaking in an insular fashion where I’m speaking to an existing audience, as opposed to something on a much broader platform where I’m trying to attract new audience and I’m trying to attract as many people as possible. So that was huge for me. Huge for me. And then again, my brother is an illustrator. We definitely have blue collar upbringings and my brother actually has only gotten this, starting his career very recently. He’s a decorative plasterer for 20 something years and now he’s getting to focus on illustration. So my family, I’ve been really, really fortunate. It’s a small family, but a very supportive family.

Maurice Cherry: What was your early career like? This is pre-Red Hat, pre-CoreOS. What was that early design career like, when you look back at it?

Kendall Howse: Hungry, scrappy, desperate. Yeah, I started off freelance. My goal was to eventually get into an agency was my hope. And so I was by Kruger, by Crux, I was just trying to find freelance clients. And so I was fortunate to do a work with Anchor Ball and that was probably 20% of what I was doing. And I was just out there hanging up business cards, shaking hands, meeting people. I remember I played, my band played a show. I played a festival in Oklahoma City where I met a woman who… We ended up at the airport, going our separate ways and she was like, “Oh, well I run like demand generation,” or, “I work for a demand gen company. We’re always looking for design”. And next thing I know, it’s 20% of my work now is doing design for her.

Kendall Howse: Like it was anywhere I could find somebody that was willing to pay. And I did that for years. I did that for years and it was hungry work, especially in November, December. A lot of companies, so that they can post fourth quarter gains, one of their tools is they just don’t pay any money out. And so you can be doing 40 hours of work a week for a company through November and December and they’ll just stop answering your calls about pay because they’re going to pay you in January, but they need the work out of you and… But they’re not going to pay you. And I had some really lean months and really scary months. Yeah, it was a grind. It was a grind every day.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. I remember when I first started just doing freelance work, I was still in college. I think I started doing freelance for other people and yeah, those early clients were… It was tough because one, they already, at least for me, they were like, “We don’t really take you seriously because you’re not in design school”. Like I was in school studying math. No one was looking at me. Even though I had design stuff under my belt, people were like, “Oh no”. And I would have, I mean my clients, my early clients were rough man. Me and I had this one client who only wanted to pay me in Sunday dinners because she didn’t really… It’s not that she didn’t believe in paying, she just preferred to pay in a non-monetary fashion. We’ll just put it that way. She was like, “You can come over and I’ll fix you a plate”. And I’m like, “That’s not really… I mean I have a meal plan at the caf. I can just get whatever,” but…

Maurice Cherry: And then even when I started my studio years and years later, my first few clients I had would really be trying to stiff you on just the most minuscule amounts, like 200 bucks. Like dude, it’s $200 worth of work. Now granted I probably shouldn’t have been doing that little amount of work, but I had just started my studio and I was hungry to just get a few client names under my belt and it was rough.

Maurice Cherry: I ended up landing into working on a political campaign, I’d say maybe about a year after I started my studio, which really came at the right time because I was looking for jobs after that. Before that I was like, “This is not working out. Like I thought it was”. I had quit my job kind of in protest. Obama got elected and I was like, “Yes we can”. And I already hated the job that I was working at and I was like, “I’m just going to do it. I’m just going to put it out there and try to do it”. And yeah, those first few months, really that first year was really rough and my mom was sending money and she was like, “You know,” you can put your pride to the side and just like get a job. I was like, “No, I’m going to do it”. And I landed in this campaign and it ended up working out from there. But those early scrappy days man, something has to be said for just the time where you will just do any kind of work just to get the money.

Kendall Howse: Oh yeah. Oh, and it may talk about like removing the ego. There was just so much times where, as designers, we’re essentially problem solvers, right? So I will use my training and my skillset to come up with a solution. But so often these people, they’re bringing you a solution and not only are they bringing you a solution, but in their mind they’ve already solved the problem and they know how much that that solution is worth. And so they’re like, “Well, could you do this thing? I already have an idea of what it should look like and I already have an idea of how much it should cost and how much… And because it only took me five minutes to come up with it. I think I should only give you $10,” and there was just… I was just eating so much crow being like, “No, that’s not the way to do it. That isn’t… I can show you research, I can show you best practices, I can show you examples and show…”. They don’t care.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah, clients, they’re not looking at that. They don’t care.

Kendall Howse: No, and especially, I think that… I mean there’s a ton of devaluing of design. It’s something that comes up all the time that, as designers, we’ve talked about all the time, but it’s this idea that people think that it’s just a gut shot. It’s just all intuition and it doesn’t occur to them that there is research behind it, that there is method and best practices. And so there’s a lot of notion of like, “Oh well, my nephew or niece, they are good with colors”. That’s what that means, you know what I mean? Or their outfits always match or something like that.

Kendall Howse: And so there’s a lot of that tug of war before… As a designer you have like a realized sense of self, a realized sense of realistic worth, worth of work, not worth of person. We’re all worthless, like are… Not worthless, priceless. We’re all priceless. But a lot of that tug of war where you don’t want us to know. Most of the clients that I did work for, I wouldn’t do work for now. Clearly the way you look at design and the way you look at solutions and what you want out of the designer is actually not what I provide. So, best of luck. I wish the best for you, but we’re just not made to work together. But back then it’s like, “All right. Yeah, no cool. Only $10?” Or, “Only a Sunday dinner?” Like, I’m not hype on it, but I got to eat.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. I remember I heard from a designer one time at a conference that I think it was something along the lines of what you were saying about kind of the speed it might take to do something. If you do a job and say, I don’t know. If you can look at a job and say, “I can do that in an hour,” but the reason you can do it in an hour is because you spent five years learning how to do it in an hour. So you’re really paying for the years. You’re not paying for the hour.

Kendall Howse: Right, right. I mean isn’t it-

Maurice Cherry: And company. Yeah. No, I’m saying companies look at… Companies, I think clients too, they just look at the hours as if like that’s the discrete amount. Like “Oh that’s what the cost is? Well how many hours is that?” And it doesn’t break down that discretely that you can just take the cost and chop it up in that way. Because it then commoditizes design to the point where you think, I guess anyone can do it and it’s not really the case.

Kendall Howse: Right, absolutely. I mean… What is the… Is that an old story? I don’t know if it’s even true or not, but about Picasso later in life. Having like a… A woman asked Picasso to draw something and he-

Maurice Cherry: Yeah, I heard that.

Kendall Howse: Just something very simple and she’s like, “It only took you five minutes,” and he’s like, “My dear. It took me my whole life”. I think that there is real value to that. I mean someone like Aaron Draplin for instance, when he does a tutorial on how to do a logo in five minutes. I feel like what he’s trying to show is that anybody can learn to design and I 100% believe that. I don’t think that it takes inborn talent. I don’t think it’s inherent, I think that anybody can learn the craft of successful design. 100%. I think though that there are some spectators who see Aaron doing that, that think, “Oh, well I could do that,” in a dismissive way. The whole, “Like if my kid could draw this, then it’s not art,” that bullshit line.

Kendall Howse: And so not to get in the weeds about this, but I think that people are… Because it is an hourly charged thing so frequently, there’s a lot of people with a dubious attitude that are like trying, without knowing what actually goes into it, they’re trying to figure out how you, as the designer, as the hired person, are trying to pull one over on them and they [inaudible 00:44:43] mistrust. And that’s why like I think it is important to, when you’re specking out a project, to put as much information as possible. Like “Oh, like first thing I’m going to do is like this many hours of research, but here’s what I’ll be researching. Here’s what about looking at here’s how much time I spent putting together this brief and this outline”. Because it’s tough that so often as a designer, especially earlier on in your career, you have to be constantly defending the value of design. Constantly. But that’s part of design. Part being able to speak to your design, being able to build the value into it and express the value. Unfortunately, it’s a part of the part of the games.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. Part of the game. I feel you. Now, aside from your design work, you also do some facilitation work with Frame Shift Consulting. I learned about that because at Glitch we had Valerie Aurora, she gave an ally skills training to us earlier this year and I was looking at the website. I was like, “Wait a minute, I know him”. How did you get started with them?

Kendall Howse: So when I was at CoreOS, the CTO, Brandon, of CoreOS, is a great guy and he had been… When he was going to Oregon, he was a Linux developer and he met Valerie as one of his Linux mentors. She was a developer for the Linux kernel, which for developers, is a very impressive thing. And so at the same time she was doing the ADA Initiative. She was part of the Geek feminism. She was doing a lot. She was already doing advocacy work within her direct tech communities. Really for women, fem-identified and queer people. And over time she stopped developing computer software and really focused her attention, a hundred percent, into Frame Shift Consulting and into this facilitation work. And so Brandon had her come and teach her ally skills class to our small company. And I got so much out of that workshop as an ally and as a member of a targeted group.

Kendall Howse: It was really clear, it was really concise. And watching the discovery process, I’m in a room of, maybe, 30 people, nearly every single one, nearly every single one, CIS straight white man, but it’s a volunteer only program. So it’s people who wanted actual skills to be better at advocating for people around them. This is the inclusion part. Here’s the difference between diversity and inclusion. Inclusion is how we work to make ourselves and each other feel comfortable, invited and welcome. And so it was great seeing them actually learn these tools, and myself as well, learn these tools. And I learned things about my own privilege and privileges that I didn’t know before.

Kendall Howse: And so after that workshop was through, she then came back and did a code of conduct development and enforcement workshop with us and I was doing a lot of event work at the time. And so I got to work with her again. And then she had announced that she was doing a train the trainers and CoreOS paid for me to go and get trained. And since then, Valerie and I have developed a friendship and a real great kind of idea sharing around this stuff. And so it wasn’t long before, it just made sense that I love the work so much and it’s so important to me, that I just come on board with Frame Shift and start facilitating the workshop on my own, which has been a really great experience. Yeah.

Maurice Cherry: Nice. And now also, I mean aside from your design work, you’re doing consultation, you are also helping out with the design community sort of in the Bay Area. Is that right? You’re, co-leading or co-chair of a group called Bay Area Black Designers, which is founded by Kat Vellos, who we’ve had on the show before. How have you started to see the Bay Area kind of change in terms of the design community since you’ve been there?

Kendall Howse: It’s changed quite a bit. One of the things that’s interesting about the Bay Area, I think, I don’t remember, maybe it was Mike Montero that heard point out that in places like New York, design is its own community and its own industry. Whereas in the Bay Area, design is very much a niche of the tech industry and the tech community. So whatever we do is kind of predicated on tech and that solid innovation, which really, I mean it changes a lot. So right now design, is huge in the Bay Area. I would say it’s primarily UX design. They get paid the most and there are award-winning UX design teams at most of these major tech companies. I’m seeing…

Kendall Howse: … these major tech companies. I’m seeing that design is being more readily accepted as a worthwhile thing. But again, UX has a lot of quantifiable aspects to it, right? Resourcing gets so much hard data back, whereas graphic design is much more nuanced. So, the difference between a graphic designer and a UX designer in this town is probably about $80,000 annually.

Maurice Cherry: Wow.

Kendall Howse: Yeah, it’s pretty dramatic. It’s one of the reasons why I don’t attach the word graphic to my design title. So when I discovered the Bay Area Black Designers, which Kat had started at about two years before I did, I was working at a tech company. I was one of the only, if not the only black person there. I was the only black designer I knew. I did not know a single other black designer.

Kendall Howse: This was around the time of, I want to say it was pre-Ferguson, but it was the month, the year leading up to between Oscar Grant and Michael Brown, Oakland was on the march. We were marching all the time. We were out in the streets, we were being teargassed by police, chased down. This was my reality after work and the horrors I was facing. Then I was going into work with these 25 year old guys that just … it was just across the Bay in San Francisco, but it was a world apart.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah, yeah.

Kendall Howse: It was incredibly isolating, incredibly isolating. I remember one day I was just really, really frustrated and I Googled black designers Bay area. Well, thank goodness Kat Vellos has her SEO game on point, because it popped right up. A week later or two weeks later, I was at my first meetup and was able to meet all these amazing black designers. What I noticed right away was none of us were from the Bay Area.

Kendall Howse: It’s grown from there. I mean, there’s now, on paper, there’s around 400 members of Bay Area Black Designers, and that coupled with the employee resource groups, a lot of the ERGs, Autodesk for instance, has a great black ERG. Salesforce’s ERGs are unbelievable. They’re so well-funded, well-supported. You have people like Rachel Williams who is just an amazing DNI leader.

Kendall Howse: They get us all together in these rooms. I mean, gosh, we got to be in a room with Issa Rae and Ryan Coogler two weeks ago, thanks to Salesforce. It’s all of these black professionals in tech, almost none of us are from the Bay area, which tells me that we’re still not supporting the area. That’s really important to me, because a lot of the older folks my age and older in BABD started as print designers and pure graphic design, typography, things like that, and haven’t had the opportunity or the means to shift into digital design and are being left behind, which is a real tragedy.

Kendall Howse: So, I mean, even like Mike Nicholls who does Umber Magazine, which is a blessing to our community.

Maurice Cherry: Shout out to Mike.

Kendall Howse: Shout out to Mike, all day. That itself is a tool for him to stay relevant, and it’s a tool for him to stay visible. Because otherwise as an analog illustrator and a typesetter, there’s just not space for him. So I am seeing more black faces in the crowd, but I’m not seeing more open faces. I’m not seeing more San Francisco, Richmond, Vallejo, the Bay Area isn’t being represented. That’s terrifying to me, because we’re seeing an eradication and a replacement of entire communities, at a scale which I’ve never seen before.

Kendall Howse: So, I would say that’s how I’m seeing design change. But also, design is so popular and there’s a lot of self-aggrandizing, self-back-patting that I see happening. I was a member of the San Francisco AIGA and they did a mentorship program about two years ago. I remember I signed on to be a mentee, because I’m not done developing my career, I’m not done developing in my skillset.

Kendall Howse: I remember one of the mentor, mentee mixers, talking with a guy who was probably, I would guess 23 or 24, very cocky, very self-assured. He was like, “Oh, I’m here as a mentor, I’m a mentor.” I’m not going to begrudge anyone. I mean, there are brilliant, very, very young people everywhere, so it’s not unreasonable to think that this guy could be a mentor.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah.

Kendall Howse: But the way he was talking was just so cocky and self-assured. Then the more and more he talked, he’s like, “Oh yeah, I’m a creative director.” I was like, “Gosh, wow, you’re a creative director at your age, that’s really impressive.” But then it turns out it’s because his brother is the founder and CEO of the startup. There’s only six people at the startup and this person is pole vaulting over a whole career path. I’m like, “Okay, well, where’s your mentee?” “Oh, I don’t know, I don’t know where she is.”

Maurice Cherry: Interesting.

Kendall Howse: She is just out of college, she’s 22. She’s looking for real development, real assistance, real anything, and this dude is not … I realized that he was much more into this idea, this persona of the designer, of the creative director. In doing so, in my opinion, was doing this really great disservice to this woman of color who’s just finished school, is a member of AIGA and is looking for development.

Kendall Howse: That, I think, for me it was a very San Francisco moment, where there are great swaths of people … of course, there’s incredible talent in this area, and I don’t want to take away from that. But there are also a lot of people who think of designer as more of a lifestyle and are just getting in these rooms where they’re just patting each other on the back and it’s being like, “We’re the best, we’re the best, we’re the best.” That’s disheartening.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah, I see that a lot on Twitter, which is why I really am not on design Twitter a whole lot, because I see so much of that. Designer as a lifestyle sort of thing, where they’re not really giving back to the community in any sort of way, they’re just providing unnecessary snarky kind of … I see that a lot. I see a lot of that.

Kendall Howse: Yeah, look at when any company rebrands. Suddenly everybody is an expert in design and it’s just finding new snarky ways to really devalue something that took years, right? Your hot take doesn’t matter, there’s a whole team. You don’t know what they were solving for, you don’t know why they changed it. There’s a lot of that that goes on. Then also, there’s, like you said, giving back to the community.

Kendall Howse: I remember I think about five years ago, there was a group of tech people who had moved to Oakland and they were like … this, I would say, the era of app building as a career. They were like, “We got to get together with the community of Oakland. We’re the new people, we’re the newcomers, we have to give back.” So we’re going to start meeting at city hall and we’re going to develop things for the community.”

Kendall Howse: At that time, Oakland was very black, very brown and very white, but also very working class, very poor. There were a lot of struggling communities at that time that could have used a lot of help from people with means, with access, with money. What this group did was they developed an app to make it easier to call the police. Black folks don’t need that. Black folks, the Projects don’t need that, the Arab communities down in the Acorn and lower bottom, it couldn’t be further from what they need.

Kendall Howse: What these people did is they walked in and said, “Well, what do I see missing compared to what I’m used to? Oh, there’s crime? Let’s not try to chip away at the [inaudible 00:58:42] reasons why there may be crime, let’s just bring in the cops.” That for me, that’s a problem, that’s an inherent misunderstanding of really what’s at stake and what’s going on. It goes to show that your hot take, your designer persona and whatever, none of it matters if you’re not solving real problems, if you’re not doing the research to find out what needs to be done or listening, asking.

Kendall Howse: These hot takes on Twitter or in other designer spaces, it just really tells me that you’re just responding to your own ego. You’re just responding to your own desires, your own way of life. To me, that’s the antithesis of design. For me as a designer, my two greatest tools are empathy and compassion, that’s it. Without those two things, I cannot be effective at my job, because I’m never the demographic, I’m never the person that I’m designing for, it’s always for somebody else.

Kendall Howse: If I’m not spending the time to learn what their challenges are and what their needs are, it’s moot, it’s ineffective. So on Twitter, yeah, okay, go ahead, talk all the shit that you want to talk, but who are you actually helping? Who are you serving? Because if it’s just been like, “Oh, the new Instagram logo is crap,” I couldn’t care less. It’s not an opinion with any foundation and it’s not useful, it’s not useful critique.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah. So speaking of empathy and compassion, you’re also the lead singer for a hardcore metal band.

Kendall Howse: Right, yes.

Maurice Cherry: I’d would be remissed if I didn’t mention your music [inaudible 00:10:32]. Talk to me about Mass Arrest.

Kendall Howse: Okay. Mass Arrest is my black liberation hardcore band. It’s a political punk band with a very singular message, which is really promoting the ideas of black liberation, representation and survival. Punk in general, hard core punk in particular, which is the faster, harder and more political wing of punk that started in the early 80’s, it is very often very, very, very white. I have been involved in it since I was 12 years old and I’ve been touring and playing in bands since then.

Kendall Howse: Oftentimes, I was hearing a lot of political rhetoric that was very vague. There’s a lot of say anti-police sentiment, but it’s, “Fuck the police, because they won’t let us break the law. They won’t let us like drink on the streets,” or whatever things like that. I was like, “But there’s these people over here that are actually being killed, that are being murdered, that are being incarcerated, that are being unjustly persecuted. I mean, if we’re going to talk about the police, can we talk about that rather than talking about them not letting us drink 40s on the sidewalk?”

Kendall Howse: So a lot of what I learned about community building, a lot of what I learned about do-it-yourself culture, a lot of what I learned about self-advocacy, I learned through punk. I mean, I never would have been able to travel to Europe when I was 19, had it not be touring with a band. I never would have had friends and connections all over the world, were it not for punk. I mean, really important skills came out of it. But what I was finding was what I was learning from punk wasn’t being reflected within punk, and I was still feeling very left out and underrepresented.

Kendall Howse: So there are a few kind of single topic bands, shout out to G.L.O.S.S. from Olympia, who was a trans hardcore band. The singer Sadie, she just made sure that everyone knew that this band, you’re welcome to come to the show, you’re welcome to party, but these songs are specifically for and about trans folks. I was just really inspired by what they were able to do with their band.

Kendall Howse: So, friends of mine were starting a band, who were white, friends of mine who were white, were starting a band. Asked if I could sing for it, and I was like, “Okay, but it’s going to be a black power band.” They were like, “Yeah, we know you. It’s fine. We understand that that’s what this is going to be about.”

Kendall Howse: So, I just hit a point where I realized I had a platform, where for years and years and years I was being invited into rooms to sing to people, to talk about things, and I was talking about a lot of issues that weren’t specific to my own experience. So with this band, I made a really conscious decision to make sure that when we play, what, we were in Oklahoma city a couple weeks ago, we played in Toronto, Canada, Olympia, Washington.

Kendall Howse: Oftentimes, I’m in these majority white spaces and so it’s an opportunity for me to advocate for our people to people who are interested in doing work for improvement and liberation for all people, but they just don’t have access or knowledge of, they have point of access, but they don’t have knowledge of the specific challenges that we’re facing. So, it’s just more of that work.

Maurice Cherry: Now between your design work and the facilitation work and the community work and the music, what do you think helps fuel all these ambitions that you have? Where does that drive come from?

Kendall Howse: I mean, you’re probably one of the busiest people I’ve ever known, but I bet you don’t even think of yourself as being that busy, except in frustrating moments. For me, I feel driven, I think because of the punk, I think because of growing up poor, having to create a lot of the things that I wanted. If I wanted something, I had to make it or I had to find someone who could make it or work with someone. So that, I think, has driven me to want to create. But I also realized that I’ve had a lot of help through my career and through my life, and that I wouldn’t be anywhere. I probably wouldn’t be around, were it not for that. I want to give back, I want to lift people up.

Kendall Howse: I mean, that moment where I felt so isolated to be the only black designer I knew, I don’t want anyone to feel like that. So thankfully for me, Kat Vellos had already put the work into creating the community, the least I can do is uphold and promote that community. Because honestly, I feel like if I’m not putting this time and this work into these things, then I won’t get to have them in my life, right?

Kendall Howse: It can be tough to be the only person of any targeted group, any marginalized group in a majority room, right? Well, if I can do some work to help that room understand what this person is going through or how to advocate for this person, that means that eventually, ideally, I’ll be in a room full of people that may not look like me, but can understand some of the challenges and concerns that I have, and can approach me with empathy and compassion and make my time easier.

Kendall Howse: So I guess in that sense, it’s self-serving, but also, it’s appreciation as well. They say be the change that you want to see, I’m like, “That’s so real.” Even in the most granular level, that is absolutely so real. I think that we all have influence, small or large. It was a big “Aha” moment for me when I realized that, and Mass Arrest is part of this, where I realized that I had influence, I had a platform, but I wasn’t taking ownership of it. So all of this stuff is me taking ownership of whatever influence I have and whatever platform I have, to make sure that I’m using it in a thoughtful way, that, ideally, it would benefit my life and the lives of people I touch.

Maurice Cherry: Yeah, is there a dream project or anything that you’d really love to do one day? Because I agree with you, in the sense that … I feel the same way. You have to create the experiences or create the space for yourself, especially in this society that is continually trying to marginalize and push out and press out black people in general. I mean, people of color in general, but specifically black people. It can be hard to kind of see where we in the future, let alone in the present. So, I get the sense of having to make that space.

Maurice Cherry: I mean, we’re really fortunate that technology has kind of democratized creation in a way that allows us to do that. I mean, there’s so many things I can do now, that even just 10 years ago would’ve really been, I wouldn’t say impossible, but it would’ve been a lot harder. But technology has allowed me to kind of take different pieces from here and there and make the spaces that I need for whatever it is that I’m trying to do or trying to accomplish or trying to just put out there in the world.

Kendall Howse: Yeah. So what’s the question?

Maurice Cherry: Oh, sorry. I said it, then I went on another tangent. No. Do you have a dream project that you’d love to do one day?

Kendall Howse: I have so many. I mean, really, I’m a collaborator more than I am a creator, I really love working with people. So I think of the people that I want to work with, and there are so many people right now that I really look up to. I mean, whether it be Essa Rae or whether it be Walter Hood, brilliant Berkeley architect and designer. The opportunity to collaborate with people is something that really excites me and that I’d like to do more of and let the project be just the product of that.

Kendall Howse: I think that right now we’re seeing a black Renaissance in pop culture removed from hip hop. Kind of like 90s black TV, I think we’re seeing some of that in Hollywood. So I would love the opportunity to work with some of these people that are making the things that are enriching my life. I mean, I know that … shout out to [inaudible 01:09:48]. He’s a designer, young dude, young brother from West Oakland. He’s 22 years old, he has a brand called [inaudible 01:09:56] Future.

Kendall Howse: Every time he puts something out, I buy it right away. He’s hell of young and endlessly creative, endlessly talented. If he called me up tomorrow and whatever the project, he was like, “Hey, would you work with me on this?” Like, “Yes.” That’s what I want to do, because I need to be inspired and I want to be a part of interesting things with interesting people.

Maurice Cherry: Now we’re coming up on the end of the year. We’re coming up on the end of the decade, really. When you look in the future, let’s say it’s 2025, which already seems like a long way away, but what do you see yourself working on? Where would you like to be in the future?

Kendall Howse: Well, I mean, I like where I am, I really love the team that I’m on. Getting to work on some of the most interesting and cool projects that I’ve gotten to work on professionally. So, I really hope to continue to develop my career within that space learning new tools. This is the year where I … motion graphics, really, I’m all about it. I want to learn animation, I want to learn After Effects, I want to learn 3D rendering. [inaudible 01:11:16] has been doing really interesting work around that.

Kendall Howse: Then, I don’t know, I don’t see myself in the Bay Area. It’s untenable, it’s getting too expensive. There’s just too much greed from the property owners taking too much money that they don’t deserve. I don’t know where I will be. I see myself ideally doing more advocacy work, maybe a book, and still designing and hopefully making cool stuff.

Maurice Cherry: All right, sounds good. Well, just to kind of wrap things up here, I know we’ve been going for a while now, but where can people find out more about you, about your work, about your music? Where can they find all of that online?

Kendall Howse: The best place to find all of it would be my Instagram, which is resistance.is.brutal. Then on Twitter, I’m kchowse. H-O-W-S-E.

Maurice Cherry: All right, sounds good. Well, Kendall Howse, Boo Boo, man, it has been so good to talk with you.

Kendall Howse: Always a pleasure, Maurice.

Maurice Cherry: I mean, I think just one, hearing your story about the work that you’re doing right now through Red Hat, and I can really feel the passion with your advocacy work through facilitation and things like that. But also, just this whole notion of making sure that we’re using our creative talents for good things, to put good things out there in the world. That’s something that I really walked away from this year’s kind of Black in Design Conference, really kind of feeling in my core, our creativity is going to be what saves us. Us as a people, us in the future, that’s how we’re going to survive.

Maurice Cherry: I really think that with the work that you’re doing and the spaces that you’re helping to cultivate and create and everything, that we’ll make it happen. You’re out there, through your music, giving a voice to people, you’re helping community through the Bay Area Black Designers. You’re, of course, working at Red Hat doing all this great stuff. So I’m going to really be interested to see what you’re doing in the next five years. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Kendall Howse: Thanks for having me, brother. I always enjoy spending time with you. I’m a big fan of the show, and so this is a great honor. Thank you.

Facebook Design is a proud sponsor of Revision Path. The Facebook Design community is designing for human needs at unprecedented scale. Across Facebook’s family of apps and new product platforms, multi-disciplinary teams come together to create, build and shape communication experiences in service of the essential, universal human need for connection. To learn more, please visit facebook.design.

This episode is brought to you by Abstract: design workflow management for modern design teams.

Spend less time searching for design files and tracking down feedback, and spend more time focusing on innovation and collaboration.

Like Glitch, but for designers, Abstract is your team’s version-controlled source of truth for design work. With Abstract, you can version design files, present work, request reviews, collect feedback, and give developers direct access to all specs—all from one place.

Sign your team up for a free, 30-day trial today by heading over to www.abstract.com.

Revision Path is a Glitch Media Network podcast, and is produced by Maurice Cherry and edited by Brittani Brown.