Kamar Thomas

Every designer or artist wants to be able to make a living from their work, and this week’s guest embodies that desire. Generally, Kamar Thomas splits his time between being a design educator at two institutions — Centennial College and VCAD — but outside the classroom, he’s a prolific artist who specializes in vibrant oil paintings filled with deep meaning. He also just finished his first book, The Artist’s Creative Vision, which publishes this winter. Very nice!

Kamar started off talking about his teaching career, which also includes stints in the U.S. and Jamaica, and he talked about getting into art and painting as a kid before attending college at Wesleyan. He also spoke on the themes of the Black figure, masks, and abstraction in his work, his first gallery show this year, and what he ultimately wants to convey in his paintings. For Kamar, you can make art from wherever, and also have a great career!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right, tell us who you are and what you do.

Kamar Thomas:
My name is Kamar Thomas. I am a fine art painter, primarily an artist. I’m also a professor at two colleges, Centennial College and Visual College of Art and Design. And lastly, because I have finished a manuscript, I will be an author of a book called The Artist’s Creative Vision.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. Congratulations on the book.

Kamar Thomas:
Thank you, thank you. When it comes out, hopefully it does come out, I hope it makes an impact.

Maurice Cherry:
It will. I think every person’s book makes an impact, especially for the person who wrote it.

Kamar Thomas:
Especially for the person who wrote it.

Maurice Cherry:
Book aside, how has the summer been going so far?

Kamar Thomas:
The summer has been busy. I fill essentially three roles. I teach and I make and I write. And the summer is my season of making and writing, so I’ve had an exhibition in the summer. I’ve been going to museums quite a bit, and I’ve been just polishing up the manuscript, which is a whole long process in itself.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I see on the websites you’ve got the book here available for pre-order and everything. We’ll also make sure to put a link to it in the show notes so people can check that out.

Kamar Thomas:
Thank you. I’m very grateful. I need it.

Maurice Cherry:
What was your inspiration behind it?

Kamar Thomas:
It came from solving my own problem, which was I was a starving artist, and I didn’t want to be a starving artist anymore so the book is written to, if I can, eradicate that concept, get rid of the idea. And to solve that problem, it’s… The real issue is how does one come up with work consistently that people want to buy? Rather than just making and following the muse and blindly following inspiration.
And I sat down and I came up with a system. And by sat down, I mean with trial and error and teaching people and tried a few other method here and picking up things through teaching and applying them to myself. And the system is combine your interests with your biography, with art history, repeat. Eventually someone will buy.

Maurice Cherry:
Sounds pretty simple.

Kamar Thomas:
Sounds pretty simple, just like saving money is simple, but it’s really difficult. Just like exercise is simple, but it’s hard.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Well, I want to get more into your work as an artist, but let’s talk about your work as a professor first. You mentioned teaching at two universities. You’re teaching at the Visual College of Art and Design; that’s in Edmonton, Alberta. And you’re teaching at Centennial College, which is in Toronto, which is on in Ontario. That’s east coast, west coast geographically. How do you balance teaching at both of those schools?

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, balance is a strong word. Let’s just say… What’s the word? Manage. Balance supplies. For a season, there is teaching Visual College of Art and Design is online, and their classes are two to three hours long. And I fit them in the schedule where I can. And I teach at Centennial in person; I’m full-time there. And that schedule is largely immutable. The meetings have to happen, the classes have to happen, and I have to physically be there. And so it’s just a matter of systematizing and being rather ruthless with what I say yes to and being very hands on with the planning. I spend a significant portion of time just planning just 20 minutes here and there. I think if I added it up over the week, it would be at least an hour and a half just on planning what I’m going to do with the time that I have.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, it’s good that you manage both of them because it sounds like one’s online, one’s in person, but then the schedules don’t seem to really cross over either, so that’s pretty good.

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah. If it’s one thing I’ve learned from teaching, it’s systematize. If you repeat anything, figure out the best way to repeat it rather than having to make yourself figure it out each time.
I have a complicated system of things coming into my inbox to moving to a… I gather up a place, I put them in a folder, and then once a day I go in the folder, I put those into the planner ,and the the next day I get out a physical piece of paper and I write down the things from the planner. And I keep it on my person so I won’t have to keep checking the planner. And then somewhere on the paper on my person, I have somewhere to put the new stuff coming in so nothing really slips through the cracks. Some things do, but for the most part, 90%, 95% do not.
The same with art; a system that you can go back to, that you can rely on to produce results is much better than inspiration-based or client-based. It’s more of if you have a method of working, you go, you consult the system. I do this. Let me check art history. What do I have inspired there? Let me draw something from my biography. Go.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s interesting, I didn’t really realize that about teaching myself until I started teaching. Which when I was in college, I would always have professors that would… They wouldn’t necessarily repeat themselves, they’d always just tell you it’s in the syllabus. It’s like, “It’s in the syllabus. I put it in the syllabus.” And I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Then when I started teaching, I was like, I get it, because the syllabus is like your system. You put everything in there, and it’s up to the student whether they read it or not. If they don’t read it, it’s not your fault. You put it in the syllabus. They should have read it.

Kamar Thomas:
Correct. It not only has everything, it has when everything is going to happen and it has how you expect it to happen and it has the consequences of if they don’t happen.

Maurice Cherry:
Yep. And then the students get mad when they’re like, “Well, I didn’t read the syllabus.” Well, that’s your problem. The syllabus is the key to the system for me, so I get it.

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah. That’s exactly right.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you’ve been a teacher for awhile now. Not just with these two colleges, but you’ve taught in Canada, you’ve taught in Jamaica, you’ve taught in United States. What do you learn from your students? Are there any differences between students in different countries and stuff?

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, there sure are. In Jamaica, the difference in students in Jamaica, I was teaching high school. And the difference really… Well, what would have made the difference there is finances, it’s money. A lot of the issues could be solved by a few dollars here and there. The main challenges I was up against was actual art materials, was the space to make the art, was the resources. Once you have the money, those problems are solved.
In the United States, when I became a professor, the problem I faced the most was a problem of agency. And that I loosely define as is this thing for me? The students, a lot of them didn’t feel like making art was… Nevermind being possible, it’s possible, but just for someone else. And so a lot of my teaching was geared towards having students not only believe that it’s for them, but making projects that reinforce that belief. And there are very few things more encouraging than a few dollars in your bank account.
In Canada, it is the students I teach now, it is a equivalent of a community college. And the students I teach are adults, and they want to be professionals, and they need tangible results. The difference in Canada is students are a little more responsible because they’re a little school older. But they just need the resources. They need to know when and where what’s happening. A lot of my job is just finding things for my students to enter, finding outlets for them.
In Jamaica, it is a straight financial barrier. In the US, it is a problem of agency a lot of the time. And in Canada now, it’s a matter of finding and connecting the students to the resources.

Maurice Cherry:
I found when I talked to some educators here in the States that teach at HBCUs, it’s a combination of those things that you mentioned. If they’re teaching on HBCUs, it’s often the lack of funds and resources as well as the agency, depending on what program it is or how many people are in the department and such. It’s interesting how the problems scale based on not just country, but also just where you’re teaching and the students that you’re teaching, the type of students you’re teaching.

Kamar Thomas:
That’s correct. The agency is a rather complicated problem because it’s not an individual problem. You can’t really solve it by one student, you have to get the whole class to want to do well. And as a result, the individual will do well within that, so you have to set the expectation and then you have tom in a way, make it known that what they’re doing is hard, and it’s supposed to be hard, and see if you can get them on board for the difficulty. It’s a really delicate dance. But the US, that was the problem I faced, and hopefully I rose to the challenge. And I apologize to the students if I have not.

Maurice Cherry:
Do your students take you up on office hours?

Kamar Thomas:
Yes, they do. Because drawing is a bit like singing where it’s your voice, with drawing it’s your hand, it feels, and it’s your art, it’s what you are trying to say, a lot of the things that I give in class, it feels like I’m attacking them personally. They take up the office hours to tell me that I shouldn’t have attacked them personally. And then we have sessions to show them, no, it’s not you, it’s understanding of the subject matter that we’re doing is not quite there yet. This is what you’re doing. You’re over here. I need you to get to here.
An example of that would be I’m teaching measuring things, just measuring, and I’m I say, “You draw a line, a straight line, a perfectly vertical line and then you measure every other angle from that.” If I say picture a 90 degree angle, you have that in your head. If you cut that in half, you have a 45 degree angle. If you’re looking at a line, you can guess what that angle is because you know what 90 is and you know what 45 is. If it’s below 45, you can say, “Oh, that’s about 30,” et cetera.
And what students do, they don’t do that, they just guess. They just put it down, it looks right, and they come to office hours and say, “Hey, you were picking on me.” And I said, “I knew you guessed because you immediately put down something before attempting… Before I even finished the sentence.” Yeah, they take up office hours, they get extra time at the beginning.
Now, at the advanced level, when they’re about to graduate, they want to know if there’s a gallery showing, which ones I should contact. If there’s an art festival, how do I get in? What do I do now? I’m about to be out there. What do I do now? And I have a whole packet for them. I have what’s the steps that they take. What are the expectations? I break out the spreadsheet. Rent is $1,500. If you sell for $500, you need to sell three every month. You need to contact 10 people every month as a result. It’s 30 days in a month. If you do one every other day, you’ll get to 10; three of them might buy. And if you do this over a year, you won’t run out of money. That’s what my office hours are for.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, back when I was teaching… Oh my goodness, this might have been over 10 years ago. I started off teaching in person, and then I asked to be moved to teach online because my students were wearing me out. One, well, my students were all older than me, and so a lot of them tried to think that they would punk me because they’re like, “You’re my son’s age.” And I’m like, “So? I will fail you if you don’t get these assignments right.” Some of them would ask me to… They would bring their kids to class and they would try to use office hours as babysitting. They would have their kid come to office hours. And I’m like, “Where’s your mom?” And they’re like, “I don’t know.” What am I supposed to do? I’m not running daycare over here. And I asked to be moved online because I was like, I can’t keep coming out here and fooling what y’all doing this stuff.
And online is just different because the students just have to have more discipline. And again, this was 10 years ago, pre-pandemic. Now where I think everyone’s used to doing virtual work. Just trying to get them to have the discipline to just say something in the forum, just participate in class. Because there was a participation element to their grade. And then when they have office hours, it’s just like, “Well what can I do to make up for the time that I wasn’t speaking?” I’m like, “You can’t. You can’t make up participation. There’s no extra credit for participation. You didn’t speak up. That was it.” Trying to do anything they could just to pass. I would have students that would try to justify why they thought it was okay cheating because the class was online. And if the class wasn’t online and Wikipedia wasn’t there, then why would it be available as a resource? They’re very creative.
I was teaching a… It was basically principles of web development to business students, which was probably why they were so duplicitous, because it wasn’t design students, they were business majors that just needed a credit. They didn’t really care to learn, they were just like, “What can I do to get past you?” Essentially. And it would be just so disheartening because I would have students that would fail my class two and three times coming back doing the same stuff, and it’s like, “Do you want me to just pass you out of pity? Because it’s getting there. It’s hurting me to see you doing the same stuff. The assignment has not changed from semester to semester. I would think you would be better at it because you’ve done it before.” Yeah,. I do miss teaching though, I just don’t miss all of that, I don’t miss all of that.

Kamar Thomas:
Some people you’re not going to get when you are in… What is it? The lower school levels of everybody, and everybody’s decent. But as soon as you go to high school and you’re high school as 2,000 people, you know at least one or two crazy people, just absolute… You see them, you cross the street.
In teaching, some people it might be they might not make it. It might be that they, for whatever reason, their motivation, they’re unwilling to do the work; and that’s fine. I do my absolute best to not take it in any way personal. I actually take it as a point of pride to produce the same professionalism, no matter what the student comes with. And I treat them extra, extra nice just to make the D or the E that they’re about to get a bit more palatable. But I’m-

Maurice Cherry:
Wait, did you say D or E?

Kamar Thomas:
Listen, there’s no time machine. You’re going to fail this class. It’s over for you.

Maurice Cherry:
Wait, wait. There’s a grade that’s a E?

Kamar Thomas:
There’s a F.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, okay.

Kamar Thomas:
It exists, but I explain in great detail, the grades that are coming, and I explain the connection. And I try and point out what they can do next time, provided and they take it again. And I make it really long, and it takes a long time for me to do it. When they come back the next time I say, “Remember that long list I sent you? You haven’t done it. You showed up when there was three weeks remaining in the semester and you were asking me to perform a miracle, but I am merely a teacher. I am not the Lord. I cannot turn the water into wine. I’m sorry, I can’t make time return itself.” If you plan on making it, you have to come to a certain number of them to get participation. A lot of it is merely giving people the benefit of the doubt that they’ll try again and not taking it personally. And I’m going to be honest; it’s been really difficult.

Maurice Cherry:
I can imagine. I can imagine.

Kamar Thomas:
It’s very, very difficult. But again, systematize. I’ve seen it before now. I’m actually mad if it bothers me at all when I see the second time. I always think you’ve seen this before. You really [inaudible 00:21:30]. You see it’s not the first person that has come in three weeks before. Go look for the three weeks before folder, search to your computer. Oh, here it is. Oh yeah, this is what I said. Got it. And then I go and set out the template.
And that way, again, because in the US, agency was the problem, I always wanted to preserve the idea that this person felt like what I was teaching was theirs. And so I would try and be excruciatingly kind, the kind of understanding, “Oh, you’re still going to fail, but it’s an understanding fail.” It’s with love, it’s with kindness, it’s with accountability. And I think if the students have changed me in any way, I’ve become way more understanding and way more empathetic. Still going to failure you, though, but way more empathetic.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I get it. Sometimes I know students are going through a lot, and you try to do as much as you can. You want to get them to the level where they hopefully are understanding and doing it for themselves, and then sometimes you just don’t have that. But I think as educators, you and I both realize that it comes with the territory.

Kamar Thomas:
Unfortunately, yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Let’s switch gears here a little bit and talk more about you. I think, as folks can probably tell by now with the quiet storm voice, that you’re from Jamaica. Tell me what it was like growing up there.

Kamar Thomas:
I’m from port Antonio in Jamaica. Place called Boundbrook, which is near the town of Port Antonio. Yeah, it’s called Stony Hill. As the name suggests there are stones. It’s a hill in areas. Not forest. There are trees, lots of them. There are dogs wandering on your properties. That’s your dog now. My neighbors knew all of my business. It’s a small place and it’s…
My parents, man, they did a great job. They did what they were supposed to do. And as a result, I felt like I could… Not only was I supposed to do well in school, but it was like, yeah, when I pass any exams and I come home with some a good report, all right, that’s nice, but we were expecting this. And that environment, I think, is what I credit for my trying so hard at anything.
Growing up there, our national heroes are all Black people. Every teacher I ever had was a woman. The prime minister was a woman at the time. When I came to the US and the term African American or Black had anything negative attached to it, I was very, very surprised, to say the least, because we don’t really have any negative connotations towards a Black identity in Jamaica at all when I was growing up. Things may have changed. But when I was growing up, we didn’t.
I come to the US and, oh. In Jamaica, you’re a man, and you come to the US, you’re a Black man. What does that mean? And my work is a direct result of trying to answer that question exactly. What does that mean exactly? And the answer for me was to expand what I think Black identity is, to expand what identity is in general. And to do that, I make a whole bunch of paintings that refer to my identity on the one hand, but also does so in a more abstract way. I make a whole bunch of paintings that are abstract, but they’re real, and I’m trying to say identity is abstract and also real.

Maurice Cherry:
When did you first get into art and painting?

Kamar Thomas:
Ah, so that is a really good question. In Jamaica, we have, when we leave school, they’re called Caribbean examination council exams. Everything is exam-based. And I took art in these exams, and I got just a little bit below the best, so I was into art in high school.
As a profession, absolutely not. That’s not in the tables. That’s not a thing. It was at my university I met my painting professor; her name was Tula Telfair. She was born Capon. She had long hair. She wore Prada dresses. I don’t know if it was Prada dresses, I just know these dresses were expensive. And she got oil paint on them and it didn’t bother her. And she drove an Audi, a blue one that sounded like a hair dryer. And she could paint quite a bit.
And I was thinking to myself, I understand being a professor pays, but you’re not buying an Audi from professor money. And I actually asked her, I got up courage, “Hey man, how you sell these paintings? How does this work?” And she’s like, “Well, you have to get very, very good and go take the classes you need. And we can talk about it when you get into the class.” And I did. I took the classes that was needed. And while I was painting with her, she just treated me and all the other students as if we were already professionals.
Now, to many people, she was mean, but it’s a very specific thing where she wants you to be ready. As soon as you step out, she wants you to be already ready. And so she would come into this studio and say if she were a curator and she gave me a show, she’d take it back immediately. I need to be painting way more than this, and then just leave me to contemplate what she just said. She would come in and just really treat me like an equal, to be honest, treat me like, “Look, when you graduate, nobody going to know what this is. This is not fun and games. You really need to be making the work consistently and professionally.” And somewhere along the line, it just happened that I felt like I was a professional. It was very gradual, but a few well placed curse words got it into my head that one should be a professional, treat it you would like any other job. It was really in college.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s get back more into you, into your background. Was your family really supportive of you getting into art?

Kamar Thomas:
That is such an interesting question. Supportive is a strong, strong word. My father is an EMT, and before that he was a fireman. He’s out here saving lives. My mom was the secretary to the dean of a college in Jamaica. This serious working people. And they send their son to America definitely not to paint, definitely not.
I’m there. Initially, I was doing physics, and it went okay, but I decided, okay, if I attack the painting with the same consistency I was doing physics, I might be able to make it work. And I, behind their back, just major in art. Don’t tell nobody. Get down to business. And it’s time to graduate now. And I call them up and I go, “Hey, the graduation is nice, but it’s me and 700 people. Nobody cares. Why don’t you come to this thing I’m having called an exhibition?” And they came and I made some sales, but I told the people, “Could you wait and give me the money in the exhibition so that my parents could see that I’m out here making it?” And they did. And they’ve been supportive ever since.
They’ve been supportive of me as a person, but because I hid it initially from them, as an artist, after I graduated, they were on board. And they have the ordinary fears. All parents are afraid that their children will perpetually depend on them until they’re 60. Parents live like, “When are you going to grow up?” And once I demonstrated that I got this, I’m fine, then they were very happy. Then it was like, all right, relax, mom. You don’t have to tell this lady that’s doing your nails. Then it’s a matter of holding them back right.
But before that, if you’re an artist listening, your parents are afraid you are going to be broke. Avoid it at all costs and you will be supported. And then you’ll have the problem of having them… Telling them to relax on the support a little bit.

Maurice Cherry:
What made you decide to go to Wesleyan for school?

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, so I got into medical school in Jamaica. Got into the University of the West Indies. I’m 17 years old applying to things, my dad’s an EMT I saw those medical books. And my dad has been going on, ambulances, picking people up, so I was barely familiar with what medicine actually means. And I thought to myself at 17 years old, nah, can’t do that.
And I was in this program for… I don’t want to say gifted. It was the Association of Quietly Excellent Scholars and Thinkers, AQUEST was the name of it. Just a group of people who met. And they said, “Apply to some colleges in the US. They give scholarships.” And I applied to a few and a few said yes. And I picked Wesleyan because it gave the most.
I went blindly with not very much information. These are the days of, of course, paper applications and paying for internet at internet cafes for half an hour at a time. The kinds of research that people do today, not possible. The virtual tours and the flying in and doing it, that’s not a thing. It’s you see a name, all right, it’s in Connecticut. How much of a flight is that? Okay. All right, apply, see what happens. And what happened was they called me and said, “Hey, you’ve been accepted.” And I go, “Great. What does that mean?” “It means you’re going to get a visa and come and you live here before.” “Oh, all right.” It was more of I need to get an education, and medicine at 17, at 18 is rough. That choice was too difficult, so let me go to a liberal arts school and figure out another path.

Maurice Cherry:
And what was that path? Of course, it was art, but tell me about that.

Kamar Thomas:
Initially, it was physics. In general, I really like excellence of any kind, but I really was into all of the great physicists, Faraday and Einstein and Niels Bohr. I read these people’s biography. I loved the mathematician, Riemann’s hypothesis. I was reading that. I was just in the library reading up about people, with their mind, with their head, they were doing things. And that kind of a thing was impressive to me because I’m nearsighted so physical feats, they were impressive, but they were hard. I wasn’t going to catch anybody. Got glasses and sorted that out. But what really wowed me was sitting into the library and reading. Wait a minute, this guy, Newton, came up with the theory of gravity and figure out white light is made up of all the other colors and invented calculus, and then he turned 26. Whatever he’s doing, I need to have some of this. These people were what were impressive people to me.
And then I went to college and I found out what professional physics was, which is you write some code and you run a model and then you refine the code and then you run the model. If you are a professor and you’re at the end, if you can manage a tenure position, you have a grad student write parts of the code and run the model. It’s not this romantic notion of sitting down and solving the kinds of universal questions I was hoping for. It was more of can you learn to code? And can you learn the math? And can you learn the math to tell it to code?
And so I figured that out around my second year when it was time to decide a major. And I was doing some drawing and I said, “If I actually flipped a coin, flipped it, heads, I stay with physics, tails, I go with arts.” It was tails. I then went, “This can’t be real,” so I went online and I took a random question answer generator, and it ended up with art as well. I said, “All right, I’ll go with art.”

Maurice Cherry:
What?

Kamar Thomas:
That’s what it was. Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
You just left it up to chance, huh?

Kamar Thomas:
Left it up. Because again, I figured… Let me put it in perspective.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

Kamar Thomas:
There was a guy in my classroom, his name is Zin Lin. He was from Burma. He skipped both levels of calculus, and multi-variable calculus, and was the TA of the physics class while he was taking it. And there was fives Zin Lins in my class of 20 people. And there are people who they’ve been doing physics so long, they are as good at physics as Mozart is as good at music. These people are good, good. You’re not going to catch them in your lifetime.
And I was working an extreme amount just to… I would get 92%, and that would be a B because somebody got 108% and the A was moved up to 108%. It’s this kind of environment where the effort I’m putting in, I’m thinking if I apply this work ethic to basket weaving, I’m going to have some amazing baskets.
And again, I was already doing… It’s not a random pick, it was something that I was already doing. I was taking languages, and I’m doing art at the same time, art and art history all at the same time. And I figure if I threw myself at this art the way I’m doing at physics, I’m going to be all right, I’m going to be cool. And that’s why I was comfortable leading up to chance. For those listening, that’s not wise. Don’t do that. Don’t do that. If you already have an arena of proven work ethic, go for it. But if not, then put some more thought.

Maurice Cherry:
You’re attending Wesleyan, you’re majoring in art, and you graduated. After you graduated, you ended up going back to Jamaica for a while, and then you ended up coming back to the States. Tell me about that time.

Kamar Thomas:
I graduated, and I just couldn’t come up with the money to move to New York so I stayed near that the school and worked at a little supermarket, sold paintings and again realized… really figured out that I don’t have a gallery, I don’t have a curator backing me. I have no critics looking at my work. I’m just a guy out here, but I need to eat. And so I would, for jobs that I was applying to that were arts related, I would send them what I was working on and just let them know that I painted as well and let them know what it was about very quickly. And many of them would respond, and I wouldn’t get the job, but they’d buy a painting or they’d refer me to somebody else, and they would buy a painting. I figured out pretty early, if you tell people, they will buy.
Then, of course, my visa expired and I had return to Jamaica where I was hired as an art teacher at my old high school. Taught 8, 9, 10th, and 11th grade. And then after that, while I’m in art school, I’m doing the same thing I did, just whenever I had to email somebody or whenever I met someone and I took their number, I just told them that I painted. And it worked the same way in the US, it worked in Jamaica. Somebody was like, “You paint. I never met an artist before.” Said, “Well, now you have. Would you send them what I’ve done?” And I sold paintings. And people would pay me in installments, so they’d pay a little this week and then another bit next week in Jamaica, and that allowed me to save up the money to apply to graduate school. Came to graduate school, did pretty much the same thing. And I’ve been doing it since.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, it seems like you always had your eye on the prize when it comes to that, which is good. Even though you were doing other things like teaching and stuff, you still were telling yourself and other people, “I am an artist.”

Kamar Thomas:
Yes. I think around half of the battle is just showing up and making the work and committing to telling people. Around half, which seems like an exceptionally large percent but the thing is, if you continually tell people, you are going to need to show them something that you’ve told them about, which is going to make you want to continue to paint. And the more you paint, the more you want to tell people, and it starts this virtuous cycle of making something, talking about it. And the more you talk about it, the more you make, the more you make, the more you talk about it.

Maurice Cherry:
But it’s also just keeping that dream in the forefront. It’s not about having whatever the weight of reality or the weight of the world kill that idea for you. You still had it in the front of your mind, I am an artist, I am an artist. You’re telling people, you’re doing it. I think that’s just a powerful thing for people to keep in mind as they go through whatever it is they’re going through as part of their creative journey; keep the dream at the forefront and keep striving towards that.

Kamar Thomas:
I was raised as a rather religious person, and in the church, they have daily bread. They have daily readings, daily Bible texts. And as a young child, this is bothersome. This is a problem. You’re up every day? kind of a thing. And I applied that same concept to my artwork, which is the daily reminders and daily things and daily… not affirmations, but something entirely dedicated to reminding me that I can probably be better but also looking back at what I’ve already done to give myself the permission to just do a little bit more. All around my house, I have all kinds of… Well, I have paintings that I’ve made, so I see them every day.
But I also have whiteboards here and there. And I’ll write a quote that I want to keep repeating. And one of them, the most recent one I have written is better to light a candle than curse the darkness. I didn’t realize that that’s where that came from until you asked me that question, but it’s the idea that you have to do something every day to remind, to get yourself to do it so that inevitably when you don’t feel like doing it, you’ve had 47 days of reminding yourself of the importance and looking back at what you’ve done so much, for how much you’ve done so far. And you eventually will just keep making stuff just because you’re in the habit of reminding yourself.
The same with exercise. I haven’t really missed a workout in years. And when I have to miss one, I feel it because when I get up, I exercise. I don’t even think about it. I get up, I exercise, them’s the rules. The same, I get up, I exercise, and before I leave, I have to see this thing that I wrote down with my hand. I’m surrounded by paintings that I like, so it’s a constant reminder. I think that’s really key when you’re pursuing something that is a creative risk, to constantly and regularly remind yourself and encourage yourself because outside is not going to do it. There is no reassurance coming. You have to provide it for yourself.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s get more into your particular art style and your process. Based on what I can see from your website, I feel like after you came back to the States from Jamaica, this is when you really started to come into your own as an artist, not just in words, but in deeds as well by the actual paintings that you’ve created. Tell me about your process. What inspires you to make the art that you do in this fashion?

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, so the main inspiration was the difference of being a Black man from Jamaica to the US and trying to work out what identity means and trying to make something that says it’s a little bit more complicated than you think. And what changed in graduate school was I more clearly could articulate what the art was supposed to do and I could use better metaphors. I could talk about it better is really what changed. And talking about it better is a function of thinking about it better and more clearly.
The change I want to make was I want someone to look at whatever identity they occupy as something that’s within their control. That sentence took two years of making artwork that I didn’t like to figure out. It took two years of trial and error and critiques in graduate school.
And once you have a clear direction, then I choose from the tools that are available to me. Oil paint I can paint really realistically or I can paint really abstractly or I can use technology to manipulate how an audience interacts with that artwork. And I make series of paintings that are somewhere between really abstract or close to realistic to walk people painting by painting through the idea that your identity can also be… Sure, it can be tangible, it can be reifined, it can be reaffirmed, but it’s also changeable by you. What changed in graduate school was I refined the message a lot more.

Maurice Cherry:
And now you have a connection with one of our other guests on the show, Bennie F. Johnson. He’s the executive director currently of AIGA. How did you two connect?

Kamar Thomas:
After I graduated but before I graduated, a parent of one of the students graduating was walking by the cafeteria, and they had some paintings of mine in there. And she Googled me and contacted me and said, “Hey, I’m in the art business. I’d like to have a conversation.” And we had that conversation. And she introduced me to Bennie. And we went down to DC and I painted Bennie and his wife and hung out with his kids. Wow, those kids must be grown by now that I’m thinking about it, probably. He was really little boy and really little girl, but now they must be big.
Yeah. I made two paintings of him and his wife. And I actually painted their face with face paint with the kids. But the kids are just rough with the face paint while stabbing daddy with the paint brush. I’m like, “You have to be gentle. Just paint a little bit at a time.” And just attacking his face. And same, his wife Akira, I believe is her name, [inaudible 00:46:26], painted her as well I painted them both. I painted a pair of paintings, and I delivered it. And I believe it’s still in their home to this day. It was a lovely experience, and I thanked them for trusting me to do that.

Maurice Cherry:
He texted me the photos. They’re really something. I know the photos don’t do justice to your work, but they’re really striking

Kamar Thomas:
Again, remember I’m from Jamaica, I’m from this hill in Jamaica.

Maurice Cherry:
Stone Hill.

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, Stony Hill. Washington, DC may as well be Mars. It may as well be a different planet. This is a place where people work in the government and people talk about the Capitol. And people are like, the president’s going to be… White House down there, and this is an Anacostia. And this is professional. He’s driving around and telling me about all this, and my world is expanding. And I thank him quite a lot for that, just telling me about the history of the place and the residents that were there and the kinds of just work that people do.

Maurice Cherry:
Actually, Bennie wanted me to ask you a question. When I talked with him, I told him I was interviewing you. He’s like, “Oh yeah,” and he texted me the photos. Bennie wanted me to ask you about how you use the Black figure and abstraction in your work.

Kamar Thomas:
Yes. When I came to college in 2008, around ’08, ’09-ish was when occupy Wall Street happened. And it was activisty, activist town, activist everything. I arrived in the United States in 2014. And if I remember correctly, that was when one of the first big public police shootings happened. It was just bam, I stepped out of the airport, and then the shooting happened. It was on TV. And it was very much in the air, the making of work that was overtly describing the Black experience as well as it is lived by many in the United States. And I said to myself, “They don’t need anymore negative portrayals of Black people.” I understand, I get it fully what’s happening, but I think… What’s his name? Do you know the book Between the World and Me?

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm, Ta-Nehisi Coates. Yeah.

Kamar Thomas:
Ta-Nehisi Coates. Yeah. If I’m a writer, he got it. He nailed it. He got it. I don’t need to write another one like that. I think he has it. I said the same with my paintings. I think when I look through what’s being made right now, I think they got it. I don’t think if I say something, it will be nearly as impactful as if I really focus on this idea of agency, of mutability, of aspiration. And I think now more than ever is when it’s needed.
Never say never, but for the most part, I look at the Black figure… I want, when I’m an old man and my memory’s going in the art history books, they see images of representation that are complex, that are layered, that are nuanced, that are not only in relationship to whiteness, that are exploring the same way every other artist gets to explore. And so that’s how I use the Black figure. Complicated. Take its place, like everybody else.

Maurice Cherry:
Masks are a regular theme in a lot of your work. Tell me about that.

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah. Masks are a metaphor that I return to. And masks in the Caribbean… In Toronto, they recently had this big carnival called Caribana. It’s where one gets to put on a mask and put on a costume and go outside and essentially simulate sex through dancing, essentially, to a beat. And that’s only acceptable if you’re wearing this costume. You can’t just do this at your day job. You can’t pull up to accounts receivable and start doing this behavior.
And I use and I think about masks in that way. It allows you to occupy an identity that gives you privileges, that gives you the ability to act in a way that you ordinarily wouldn’t. And you don’t have to keep it forever. You can change it. And so masks, as a notion of identity is look, of course you are who you are, you’re born or you’re born, but if, when it comes to making art, if you view all of it as yours and like you’re supposed to be there, suddenly where you take influence from is much wider. If you view that the creative production is for you, then telling people about it is not that big a deal. If you think that you are supposed to be passing this class, that your identity is, yeah, pass classes. Then chances are, you’re going to work to pass that class.
Masks are this wonderful metaphor that I keep going back to, I keep finding nuances. Mask can conceal things. You can put it on, you can rob somebody, you can get away with it. Masks can review things. You can wear a mask for ritual purposes to act in ways to enter into states like trances, to enter into states, well, at carnival, et cetera. And masks, with the pandemic, went from being something to protect other people from getting infected with COVID to protecting yourself, to being a status symbol, to… The meaning of it changed over time, so I’ve been fascinated by this concept of masks.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you talked earlier about this exhibition that you had recently. How did it go? Tell me about it.

Kamar Thomas:
It went okay. What I did was I rented a gallery and just paid them the rent for a week and told as many people as I could about it. And people came and purchased the work. It was undertaking because when you pay for the gallery, you have to do everything. You have to show up and hang the work and sweep out the gallery and paint the wall and nail in the painting onto the wall and set up the lights. But from a introducing Toronto to my work perspective, it went swimmingly because one does it. I can show you better than I can tell you. It was a matter of inviting people. Many of them were new to Toronto. And I sell my art mostly to people who have never really bought art before, so it was a great success in that way. I got many, many people who didn’t even think of themselves as people who buy artwork to buy art and to think about it.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s awesome, that’s awesome. I’m glad that it was really successful for you in that way.

Kamar Thomas:
Thank you, thank you.

Maurice Cherry:
Are you planning on doing another exhibition this year? Or surely in the future, you’re planning on doing something.

Kamar Thomas:
In the future, yes. My time for the next couple months is taken up with the book and with… I’m going to be the coordinator of the program I’m teaching at Centennial, so it’s a lot of emails and a lot of tours and a lot of interviews, et cetera is coming up.
But next year I’m planning to… I’ll be painting the whole time. Next year, I have anywhere from five to 10 exhibitions that I’m putting into the calendar. But I’m going to be producing the work to get that done now next year, 2023, by January, the book will be out. By March, I’ll have at least one exhibition. By June, I’ll have another. By July, I’ll have another. By August, I’ll have another. And if my papers are right, I might have one or two in Jamaica as well.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh, you got a plan. That’s good.

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah, I have a plan, but saying man makes plans, God laughs, because COVID really.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, well, that’s true, that’s true.

Kamar Thomas:
Here there’s a whole monkeypox coming on the scene.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Kamar Thomas:
We can’t get a break in this century.

Maurice Cherry:
What is it that you ultimately want to convey with your work?

Kamar Thomas:
Yeah. Ultimately, I want people to see art as something that is for everybody. And I want them to see it as a decent job. Now, will you get rich doing it? Probably not. That being said, will you get rich doing anything? Probably not. It’s not more difficult than anything else.
I want people with looking at my work to understand and think through their identity as something that they get to pick. I want to overall increase agency in the world. Increase not just confidence, but the idea of possibility.
My largest challenge is getting students to not just believe that they can do what I’m asking, but that they’re supposed to do what I’m asking, and they’re supposed to do it well. If you look at identity, there is… I think Ben Akerlof, he’s an economist, and he says identity is one of the most significant economic decisions that someone can make. That means when you pick your identity, you pick what clothes you’re going to buy, you pick what shoes you wear, what colleges you can get into, what person you can marry, what neighborhood you’re going to live. And I want people, after having consumed my work, see the significance of those decisions and see that they have much more agency over them. They have way more power.

Maurice Cherry:
When you look back at your younger self, let’s say your 16 year old self, when you look back at him, what advice would you give him?

Kamar Thomas:
Oh man, that’s such a really good question. At 16 years old, I was honestly not listening to nobody. You weren’t going to tell me I’m not going to be pretty good at physics. You weren’t going to tell me I’m not going to be pretty good at anything.
At 16 years old, well, I would actually say go to the dance, is what I would say. When I was in college, they had these things called winter dances. And I was a member of the ASA, African Student Association, and they had a dance. And every year they would ask me, “Just come practice for the dance and do it on the night.” And I would go, “No, I have to paint. I have this problem set to do.” And I never did the dance, never did the dances because, again, your undergraduate was so hard I never did them.
And it was in graduate school I realized how much I missed by not doing the dance, how much outside of class relationships I could have formed if I did the dance, if I just went through the thing and practiced and maybe gotten 98% instead of 100%. You still get an A. I realized at that time, because when I started selling paintings, I realized the need and the importance of human relationships. That’s most of life. Life is group work, is what life is.
I would tell my 16 year old self, A, just go to the dance. Sure, be focused, but you don’t have to be all that focused. Go to the dance. You will have a good time. You’ll form human connections. And when they need help, you’re going to be able to help them. And when you need help, they’re going to be able to help you. But go to the dance is what I would say.

Maurice Cherry:
At this stage of where you’re at in your career as a painter, as an educator, now as an author, how do you define success?

Kamar Thomas:
Yes. I was talking to someone earlier about this concept. I woke up when I was 26 years old and I realized that I had all that I wanted. I wanted to be a painter, and that’s what I did most of the time, most of my days. I applied for a professor job, and I was working as a professor at 26.
Success for me was spending my time doing and utilizing God’s gifts as they have been bestowed to me. And I can learn pretty quickly and I can teach fairly well and I can paint, and I do all of these with most of my time. Success is doing or using the gifts that you have for most of your time. Doesn’t have to be all the time now. We all have to pay taxes and commute to work; most of the time. And for me, I have all I want.

Maurice Cherry:
Given that, and you’ve sort of, I guess, already teased this out a little bit, but where do you see yourself in the next five years? What work do you want to be doing? Any bigger projects or anything like that?

Kamar Thomas:
Whenever I run into any new medium, I try and figure it out and do a project in that medium. Now I’m looking into AR, so Instagram filters and Snapchat filters, provided Snapchat still alive as a company. Those are the kinds of AR that everyone would be familiar with. Augmented reality is what AR stands for. And I’m thinking that this can be a really strong addition to my work. And I’m thinking if I can figure this out, if I can learn that small bit of code… I’m taking a class here and there. In four or five years, I will have two, three projects tying technology and the art that I’m doing.
When I moved in Quebec, all of my friends were concept artists, and they worked in the entertainment industry designing monsters and trying to tell stories. And a part of my job now as a professor is I found myself helping people become illustrators and helping them learn to design those monsters. And as such, I’m looking at them watching much more stories, so there might be some short films in the mix. There might be some form of narrative in the mix.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more information about you and about your work and everything online?

Kamar Thomas:
You can find me at kamarthomas.com, or you can find me on Instagram at O-H-K-A-M-A-R. As mentioned earlier, I was a flowery languaged young man, and I got the sentence, “Oh, Kamar,” quite a bit so I made that my Instagram handle. And you can find me at those two places primarily, or if you type my name, Kamar Thomas, into Google, I am proud to say you will find me.

Maurice Cherry:
Sounds good. Well, Kamar Thomas, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. One, I think just like your energy, you really just come across as very self-assured and cool as well as artistic. But I think also just telling your story of coming from Jamaica and always putting your artwork and the work that you’re doing and who you are as an artist at the forefront as you’ve went through life I think, one, it’s granted you the success that you have now, but I think it’s just a really great example to set for others out there that can hopefully do the same thing. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Kamar Thomas:
Perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much. It was a privilege and an honor.

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Kelly Walters

We have had a good number of design educators this year on Revision Path, but how many of them have written a book on designers of color? Meet Kelly Walters, an artist, designer, and educator who is currently the assistant professor and associate director of the BFA Communication Design program in the Parsons School of Design at The New School in New York. Kelly is also the founder of the multidisciplinary design studio Bright Polka Dot. Talk about having a full schedule!

Kelly talked about the adjustments she has made over the last year with respect to teaching, and we talked about how she was exposed to the arts early, but never thought of it as a profession. We also discussed the works she’s done through her studio, collaborating with other Black design educators, and the launch of her upcoming book “Black, Brown & Latinx Design Educators: Conversations on Design and Race.” Thank goodness for educators like Kelly who are helping add to the corpus of design history!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Kelly Walters:
My name is Kelly Walters. I’m an artist, educator, designer. I teach at Parsons School of Design. And yeah, I make things. I make a bunch of different things. Print and digital, and everything in between.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. How are you feeling so far about 2021?

Kelly Walters:
2021? You know, I was really curious to see how the inauguration was actually going to play out at the end of December. Just anxious about all the various things that have been happening. And I think the beginning of 2021 felt really rocky just for me and trying to understand the end of one presidency, the beginning of a next, the middle of a pandemic, and just a lot of uncertainty. So it felt a little overwhelming, I think. But it feels like it’s getting potentially better. As best as better can be, I guess. I don’t know if that’s a thing, but …

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean, I can certainly see how it sort of feels a bit like we’re starting to see the light at the end of this long pandemic sized tunnel in a way. So I know what you mean. Now especially that we have new leadership, there’s vaccines that are out there, people are getting vaccinated. It feels like things are starting to go into a different direction.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I feel like, I don’t know. I’m just anxious for everyone and making sure that we can safely make it through this second year I guess, of this new world that we’re in. And I’m also really curious to see what patterns or observations that are made in this time that will affect us longer than this time, I guess. Longer than the year and change that it’s been. I’m really curious to see what it looks like. And being able to reflect back maybe even in 10 years or five years, what I remember of this era. So I don’t know. I’m reflexive I think in that way of looking forward and back if I can at the same time.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It’s funny. That’s kind of, January is after the Greek, I think Greek god or demigod Janice, that has one face looking forward, one face looking back. So that’s a very kind of apt comparison. Are things different for you now than they were last year?

Kelly Walters:
I’m trying to think. At this point last year, we were maybe a week out before everything shut down. If I recall, I think the last time I was in New York was March 11th when we were told two days later, everyone had to stay at home. And I think things were more uncertain in some ways at the very beginning of that last year. And as I reflect on where I am now, I don’t know. I feel like there’s still unknowns, but I’m living to sit inside of the uncertainty. It’s very uncomfortable to do that, but I don’t know. I think more than last year, I feel like this year, you have to sit with the uncertainty in a way that I don’t know. I don’t know how to really describe that exactly. I just feel like I’m navigating what it means to not know even more than before, and not take for granted what was thought to be stable. Or what was thought to be certain, if that makes sense.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. So what is a regular day like for you now?

Kelly Walters:
Well, my home, is my office, is my classroom, is my social space. So it’s the all-purpose room for many things. And I think it was weird to navigate that last year of finding what the delineation is between all of those kind of spaces. But I think depending on who you’re talking to in meetings, whether it’s coworkers, or your friends, or your family, kind of figuring out a way to feel as though even at your own environment, home environment, that in a separate area or at a certain time of the day, that it can feel as though you can feel the shift. And it’s sometimes it’s about just getting up, and walking outside, and coming back, and feeling like you’ve gone into a new room. Or changing the lighting, or opening the blinds, or turning on the light. I think it’s these small actions to make it feel like you’re in a different space sometimes. So I feel like that’s what my day’s like more and more now of just what are the subtleties that I can adjust in my home environment to feel like I’m in a different space, I guess.

Maurice Cherry:
Has there been a change in how you’ve been teaching or anything like that?

Kelly Walters:
Yeah, definitely. I think now, it’ll be a full year of teaching remotely online. And I think that for my program, the communication design program at Parsons, I think we had transitioned to an online teaching format. And I think what was really challenging the beginning was trying to figure out what does it mean to do a critique in this environment? What does it mean to build up student rapport and morale, and all of those, and community around students that you are working with that previously you were seeing physically in a particular space? And I think the difference between what I’ve learned in that kind of crisis, moving in somewhat of a crisis mode to teach remotely versus starting the year teaching remotely. It’s just like I’ve been working with students all year that I probably won’t ever get to meet in person. So there’s this difference in trying to figure out how to get to know someone as much as one can. An online format through smaller group conversations, or having Slack channels or things where people can sort of commune in a digital sphere. But it’s definitely been different than previous years.

Maurice Cherry:
And has Parsons kind of been accepting of all of this and all these changes that have been going on?

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I mean, I think every program is navigating this in its own way. I think that including ours, we have tools, and supplies, and things that we are wanting our students to use for all these various projects. But with students kind of navigated across the world really, it makes it difficult for them to be able to have access to that. And I think that the school is aware and understands as does many other institutions as well, that the safety protocols of social distancing, and having rapid tests, and all kinds of things to kind of make sure that people are being safe on campus is understood. I think it’s just challenging overall, many schools as well. Where students want to be back, but we’re kind of navigating the pace of the pandemic and what that looks like.

Maurice Cherry:
What courses are you teaching right now?

Kelly Walters:
I am teaching a Black visual culture class, and that’s a class that I’ve created. It stems from some of my research. And then I’m also teaching a senior thesis course with our BFA students.

Maurice Cherry:
A Black visual culture class. That sounds pretty dope.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I mean, I’m figuring it out. I think it’s an experiment, and I’m learning how to teach it, and learning how to teach it from the perspective that I’m seeing, and also being influenced by how my students are seeing. I feel like I’m learning as much through them as I’m providing to the class as well. So a lot of it is about learning how to teach even this material. Just as much as I may know certain things, they also know things that I don’t. And I try to build that into the context of the class.

Maurice Cherry:
Now have you taught this in person before? Or have you only just done it virtually?

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. Fall 2019, I taught it for the first time in person. It was very different. We were using the Risograph machine. We had access to come together in a classroom space and project and view, view material together. And I think it’s a little harder to do that now. But yeah, I had taught it in person before.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. What does teaching do for you as a designer? And we’ll get into your design work as well. But how do those two work together?

Kelly Walters:
I feel like they’re interconnected. I think for me, teaching is a way of relearning tools, or techniques, or methods that I’m using in my own practice. So when I’m talking with students or we’re talking about projects, or conceptualizing about something, or trying to figure out how to make something, I think I feel like I’m a co-facilitator or co-collaborator in that, where we can talk through strategy. We can talk through approach. And I think it’s so important to my practice because through those discussions and my ability to kind of think through how do I deliver this material to students? How do we discuss X, Y, or Z, or think through these things? I see my own self being able to kind of in my practice, reflect on even those lessons or conversations that I’ve had with students.

Kelly Walters:
And I think they inform each other. And I think my design practice with things that are happening outside of the classroom, those experiences working with clients or working with other artists and designers. For me, those are examples that I can draw upon to kind of bring into the class about this is how I did X, Y, or Z with whoever. And I think it lends a bit of a credibility to it as well, because it’s not like I’m just making stuff up. I’m speaking from the various experiences that I’ve had. I think it’s helpful to draw upon as lessons in the classroom space.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s interesting. Because I’m sure that like you say, the students are informing you, as you are going through all of this. I wondered though if it was maybe easier because now you’re teaching over kind of an entirely visual medium. Teaching over the web. You can use Zoom, you can point to YouTube videos. But I don’t know. Have you found that it’s been a little easier in some ways?

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. In some ways it is. Because the only thing that’s between us is the screen. Right? And what I’ve really loved about this time is being able to draw on the screen over the design. So when a student is sharing the work of let’s say a book that they’re making, or progress on some design work. Once it’s up, I have the ability to annotate on the screen. And I’ve been doing more and more of that because I can point out very specific details. Whereas previously, it’s harder to do that with everyone just looking at one big projector screen. So I think there’s a hyperfocus in some way that the screen sharing and annotating various tools on the screen, or me just sharing how I do something in a software or program. Just seems like the focus and attention is a little bit more direct than sometimes it can get lost in the classroom. Because you’re running to class. You’re tired. You’re not really looking at the screen. Your head is down. Lots of other distractions sometimes in the space when 15 other students are with you. So I think that there’s some positives to the hyperfocus that I think lends for some students.

Maurice Cherry:
Let’s kind of switch gears here a little bit. I know we’ve been focusing now on your teaching and the work that you’re doing there. I’m curious, were you kind of always exposed to design and art even growing up as a kid?

Kelly Walters:
I think so. I look back at this. In elementary school, I went to what was called an arts magnet school. And I don’t think I really fully thought through this until you’re asking me now, further back than even college. But I think in elementary school, because it was an arts magnet, there was a huge emphasis on creative projects. And from movement and dance to artistic projects that were happening in the art room, plays, and musicals, and all these various things. And I don’t think I fully thought through how much of an influence it’s had on me. Because once I left elementary school, I was still interested in arts, and I always did band, and was definitely a music and band person. But I think what happened was that you had to choose, right?

Kelly Walters:
I think for middle school and high school in particular, you could only do one art or art focused discipline as part of your credit sequence. And I chose marching band, and I chose band, and would always be in a lot of the music classes. But because of that, I only got to take one art class at the end of high school, which was a graphic design class.

Kelly Walters:
So I think I was exposed to music or creative environments. But not really knowing what to do with it, or just thinking that it might be a hobby. I think through middle school and high school, thinking that art could be a hobby, not necessarily as a profession.

Kelly Walters:
But at the same time, there was one other project that I did in eighth grade where I think I wrote away to Pixar. And Pixar sent me back a folder of all of these inserts from all of the different animated films, and Toy Story, and Bug’s Life, and all this stuff. Again, I think there were things that happened, but I didn’t connect the dots I think at that time that I was interested in some kind of computer animation or computer generated imagery kind of thing. But not knowing exactly what to do with it.

Maurice Cherry:
There’s something interesting that you mentioned there about how in elementary school, there were all of these different arts and music. And I don’t know, you were exposed to a lot of it. And it had me even thinking about when I was a kid, we had school plays. We had of course music classes with recorders and the little xylophone blocks, and all that sort of stuff. And it was always just kind of presented as options. Not necessarily, “If you stick with this, you could be a musician.” But more so just showing you that this is kind of out there. It’s an option.

Maurice Cherry:
And of course as you go through your education, you go from elementary school, to middle to high school, it appears like those options kind of winnow away a bit. It’s less about arts and more about humanities and science. Depending on what school that you go to. I’m curious, knowing that that was your experience as an educator, does that help inform you when you’re teaching your students now?

Kelly Walters:
Just the types of exposures that I’ve had you mean?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I mean for me, I think what’s really important is that people feel like there’s versatility, that they can have adaptability, that they can use these different skillsets in different ways. And I think my exposure to music for example, while I’m not a musician anymore, play the clarinet like I used to, I think being in the creative musical environment for as long as I can remember, there’s just a sense of improvisation. A sense of listening for others, hearing other voices. So those things have translated for me. Even again just using marching band for example, the ability to be a single individual playing inside of the sound while also creating sound, I think is just something that it translates in other areas I think of my practice. Where you’re kind of trying to be attune, and listening, and taking note, and being observant. So I think that those things have definitely translated to teaching and working with students.

Maurice Cherry:
What did you play in the marching?

Kelly Walters:
I played clarinet.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice, nice.

Kelly Walters:
Yes. The small fin, less heavy instruments.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s a good instrument.

Kelly Walters:
It is. It is. Woodwind instrument.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. When did you know that working with design and art was something that you wanted to do for a living?

Kelly Walters:
When did I know? When I entered undergrad, I was still uncertain. I went to UConn up in Storrs, Connecticut. And I came in as an undecided, undeclared major in my freshman year. And I think I was again, the idea that art could be was present. There were things that I was doing that was creative. But I guess I just didn’t know or have enough awareness of what could be or what was possible. But I did know that I wanted to start taking some more art classes. And it was in that process of taking, I think it was a drawing class or painting class in my spring semester is when I was like oh yeah, this is immersive conversation. The looking, and the thinking, and conceptualizing, it just felt right. And I think it’s when at that point, I applied to get into the graphic design program. And I think it was once I was in that program, and I was seeing, and I was exposed to more pathways that I really was excited about that discipline.

Maurice Cherry:
While you were at UConn, I’m curious. What was your time like overall outside of just studying?

Kelly Walters:
Well, I also did marching band in college. So for me, I really liked it in that you got to go to football games, and basketball games, and things like that. And I think on one hand, I was really just trying to find myself as an undergrad and navigate this really rural environment. I was coming out of more of a city suburb backdrop previously just growing up. So Storrs, Connecticut was really rural. So for me, there was also this kind of tension of navigating being in that sort of isolated space. And it also being really predominantly white and feeling like I was missing … I think towards the end as I was about to graduate, I was ready to kind of move to a more eclectic, more diverse space. But I think as my time evolved while I was there, it took me time to figure out who I was, and what I was saying, and what I wanted to say. By the end, I was like okay, I’m ready to go elsewhere or try something new.

Kelly Walters:
But I think it had its challenges. I think that I was one of very Black students in the art program. Luckily the year that I went through, I think we had in graphic design, I think there were three of us that were kind of in the program together. And I think the other kind of interesting thing about UConn is that it’s known for basketball and science, right? So those are giant components of the campus culture. And everyone kind of fawning around all the basketball players, or science and research were really dominant focuses of the campus. As I look back, I was just learning how to become who I am in some way. and navigating again, what I needed to do next.

Maurice Cherry:
When you graduated, did you feel like you were prepared for the design world, prepared to work as a designer?

Kelly Walters:
When I graduated, I felt bereft of the academic environment in some way. Because my thesis project as an undergrad was called Black, and I was investigating my identity, who I am, what I wanted to say like I was saying before. And the design work was very, it might even be if we were to kind of situate it, almost kind of as a contemporary artist. Right? So I was making work in a way that what I was concerned about was how it was going to be perceived in a more corporate context, and how I could apply for jobs with my thesis saying Black very visibly on it.

Kelly Walters:
I think I was just trying to, when I finished getting out of school, I was trying to figure out what my design community would be. And it was a very different time. We have all these different digital spaces, Black spaces where people are convening, and connecting, and meeting each other. Yeah. I don’t think that I knew what it meant to have a community. I didn’t know what kind of design I really wanted to do or go in. So I was a freelancer for the first year or so out of school, where I was kind of navigating through job boards, and finding places to do smaller, freelance gig projects with.

Kelly Walters:
It was also in that time that one of my former professors had reached out about teaching in a class at the University of Bridgeport. So I was like, “Really, can I teach? Can I do this really?” And I think her reaching out, and because my mom is a teacher, they were really supportive of figuring out the thing, or not figuring out, but helping me figure out how I could begin to teach in this collegiate environment. Because I started in that way, it was like freelancing. I was teaching. I started out with a hybrid practice, and I feel like I’ve kind of maintained that ever since in some way where there was a kind of a triad of working in industry, teaching, and having also a research practice that may not necessarily be for clients at the same time.

Maurice Cherry:
And now is this the beginnings of Bright Polka Dot?

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. And actually, Bright Polka Dot was born out of a web design class that I had in college, because we were all asked to create portfolio sites. And my name is so common, that there’s hundreds of people that have my name, Kelly Walters. So I was trying to come up with these different permutations of Kelly A Walters, Kelly Ann Walters. I was just trying different versions of things. And I didn’t like the other options that were left, like .biz .net. So I was like, well maybe I’ll just go in a very different direction and just kind of think about a moniker, if you will.

Kelly Walters:
Many of the fabrics and the patterns that I always gravitate towards are polka dots. So I was really interested in this idea of polka dot. And then I was also interested in adding bright to it. Also a metaphor for myself, but also just kind of a lively addition to polka dot, I guess. So I went with it. And there’s a very particular pattern that I use for one of my design books that is kind of also the very specific inspiration. I don’t know where it is. It’s somewhere in my apartment somewhere, but that became my website name. And I’ve kept it ever since. And I don’t know. It felt right I think to me.

Maurice Cherry:
Now as you sort of started Bright Polka Dot, and then even as you’re kind of navigating the postgraduate world, how did Bright Polka Dot change? Did you sort of start it off in one way and it shifted into something else?

Kelly Walters:
I think what’s interesting for me was navigating wanting to work with different design studios, right? And different agencies. And again, trying to figure out how to mesh more corporate work that has nothing to do with me versus projects that are kind of self-driven and are interested in various topics or themes.

Kelly Walters:
In the very beginning, my portfolio on my website would reflect a lot of work that wasn’t necessarily from me, but might be client oriented. That was I don’t know, it was just really corporate in a lot of ways. And I wasn’t sure what I needed to have up there to get a job, to look a certain way. I think I was very conscious of wanting to put up work that looked like a thing that would impress someone else. As I’ve gotten older and as my projects have changed in what important values are important to me at this point, what was more important was having a blend of projects that I was excited about, that were really connected to me, to communities that I’m a part of. That could really just push forth topics, conversations, have a critical point of view. And I think that that’s what’s kind of shifted in the last several years as my portfolio has continued to change, and projects that I’ve done are kind of again, discussing large or grander topics than I had previously.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. Let’s talk about some of the projects that you’ve done through Bright Polka Dot. One of them that I saw, I think it was one that I saw right off the bat was … and forgive me, I might be getting this wrong. I think it’s God is a Black Woman, I believe is what it was titled.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. So The Black Woman is God.

Maurice Cherry:
The Black Woman is God. Thank you.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. So that one, the curators for the exhibition were Melorra Green and Karen Seneferu. And when I was living in the Bay Area, I worked with SOMArts Cultural Center in San Francisco. And one of the exhibitions that I was invited to work towards for the design components around was The Black Woman is God. And it was the first time I think … I’ve worked on it two or three times in different years for a different theme. But the first time was super exciting for me to connect with curators. And the show essentially featured black women in the Bay who were presenting art and design works in the SOMArts Cultural Center gallery space. And I think through those projects and thinking through the visual identity, I was just really interested in playing with color, playing with typography, and subverting expected visual tropes about what blackness is, and really kind of draw upon inspiration for things that I was seeing as typography in either old film posters, or one exhibition was called Reprogramming The God Code. And I was just thinking about the digital component of what reprogramming means and trying to think through typography that had a certain kind of digi vibe. So yeah, I was just really thinking through the approach in a lot of different ways for those exhibitions.

Maurice Cherry:
And one of the others, I know your research does focus kind of a lot on Black cultural media in a way. There’s another project Superfly and Shaft.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I mean, I think what’s also a part of my practice is looking at visual identities, and again, typography that are a part of really influential or iconic spaces, media spaces. Whether that’s films, television, music. I’ve been doing just deeper dives around who created this work, right? Was it created by black designers? Was it created by non-black designers? What does it mean that this image or symbol is actually, it represents blackness, but not have come from a black artist or designer, I guess? And just thinking about what that means from social and cultural standpoint. And how within the Superfly work, just kind of amplifying and looking closely at what was significant. For me, out of that poster was the letter forms, and hyper isolating into certain areas, and then remixing. And in some way, I think the music influences that I’ve had. And I think about as if I were a DJ, right? What are the remixes and the samplings that I can do from these different eras, from these different visual graphics? And how do you reassemble them, where they can maybe speak to someone who like my parents, grew up with those films. But also, the visual and the type of graphic play potentially speak to someone right now who’s an emerging designer, and maybe not has ever seen that film or series of films. So I like the idea of remix and juxtaposition.

Maurice Cherry:
And now as we sort of delve into that more, which is your research focus. as it says in your bio, you focus on how sociopolitical frameworks and shifting technology influence the sound, symbols, and styles of Black cultural vernacular in mainstream media. Which sounds like a mouthful. What sort of research is happening right now on Black visual culture? You can talk about some of the other work that you’re doing, or maybe something that you’ve seen from peers, anything like that?

Kelly Walters:
The thing that I’m finding really kind of interesting right now is that a few years ago, I was just reading articles about digital blackface. And the circulation of memes, and gifs, and things like that on a social channel, like Instagram, or Facebook, or Twitter. And I was drawn to kind of understanding what does it mean to have something that’s digital blackface? And what is blackface? And I think I was going down a path in terms of research of just trying to understand more historically about how blackface has surfaced in the United States and what its history and its lineage has been. And I think there’s so much kind of visual content today that has a connection to that lineage. We just don’t always know what it is, or it’s been suppressed in various ways where it’s not been analyzed and talked about in the context of graphic design. But it’s analyzed and talked about in many other disciplines. Whether it’s media studies, or Africana studies. Things like that, I think that there’s so much scholarship that’s been generated around images, and understanding the root of those images.

Kelly Walters:
So anyway, I think for me as a designer that’s working with type and image often, I just wanted to have a better understanding of that history. And I began to kind of do research around music publishing, and early music publishing. And for me, was trying to trace the lineage between a music album cover to that early music sheet cover, and forms that have surfaced in between. So I think that it’s been a lot about excavation, and trying to see what I can find. And using digital collections to see what’s available and look closely at who was publishing various works. If there’s information about the artist. Sometimes, the artist’s name is embedded on the illustrations of those early works.

Kelly Walters:
So it’s just been for me right now, navigating a lot of that historical information. And I think what I begin to do with that is again, the remix part is wanting to look closely at the topography. And these become typographic specimens. And I think what’s really loaded and charged about doing that is the time is really charged. So I’m trying to be mindful of what does it mean for my own positionality to be working on top of these works, or fragmenting, or cropping them in particular ways? What do I find sacred? What can I touch? What is uncomfortable for me in creating a collage or a remix, if you will? And I think that I struggle and tangle with all of those things I think in the creation of work that responds to that research.

Maurice Cherry:
And now you’re also coming out with a book soon, right? Is this the culmination of this research?

Kelly Walters:
No. So the book that’s coming out is called Black, Brown + Latinx Design Educators: Conversations on Design and Race. And because for me, there’s multiple avenues of my practice and things that I’m exploring, right? The research that I was talking about is one avenue. Another of my design practice is collaborating and connecting with other design educators or designers of color. And this particular book that’s coming out features 12 interviews. One of which includes myself with design educators from across the United States and Canada. And it features kind of an interview of our experience getting into design, navigating private and public university and college settings, and what it means to now be teaching in the environments that we are. So I’m super excited about this book coming out at the end of the month actually on March 30th. Just because it’s the first time that I’ve had a public, a really, really public project I think like this, that is being published at this scale. So I’m excited, and scared, and all the things in between as well.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s amazing. Congratulations on the book.

Kelly Walters:
Thank you.

Maurice Cherry:
What do you hope people get out of it?

Kelly Walters:
I think what I hope the most is that folks like myself, emerging designers, emerging students in design can see themselves in this book. I think we’re only a sampling. We’re not everyone. And we can only share our perspectives from our own backgrounds and what we have accomplished and done. But I think that my ultimate hope is for there to be visibility, and to see it as a pathway, to see it as … like if you’re interested in teaching, you’re interested in design, and you’re a person of color. And specifically, you’re Black, brown, or Latinx. It’s just a sampling of folks who are doing it, and working through their own design practice, and navigating challenges that are coming up. And also to validate any other educators who are experiencing similar challenges or successes. And to recognize that we are a bigger community than we realize. And we’re only a step away from each other in some way. I think that that’s something that I’ve learned a lot about.

Kelly Walters:
And in this book, many of the people that I’ve interviewed have become such good friends now. And I’m collaborating with them on multiple projects. And I just think to feel connected to each other has really been life-changing for me in the last year. Because I think the project was born out of a panel presentation at the College Art Association. And I think that was literally the last and the last time that I’ve seen many of the people in this book in person. And I think for us to be together in that space was life-changing for me. I’m sure it was for others just to think about a panel that reflects us, talks about our experiences. It feels like it can be very rare. And I think I’m wishing and wanting us to get to a point where we don’t feel like we have to feel rare. That there’s many of us here. And there’s just a bunch of us in different places.

Maurice Cherry:
I have to say one thing that has been an interesting kind of, I don’t want to say improvement, I’d say an interesting development from the last year or so is just how many of these types of events, or panels, or things like this have happened where you’re starting to see more Black designers come together. Whether it’s Black design educators or just regular design practitioners, etc. That are kind of outside of what we may have seen prior to this in terms of other types of events or conferences. Like for example, The State of Black Design that happened last year. You were a part of a Where are the black designers? from Mitzi Okou. These sorts of events didn’t really happen before. And now, it’s so exciting to see these happen now. And that people are still continuing to work together. And even to your case, writing books. You’re now contributing to the corpus of design history by putting out a book that people can then go and reference years and years down the line.

Kelly Walters:
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s the really exciting part that as I’ve met more designers, as I’ve met more design educators. And I’ve been trying to kind of navigate within my own practice what the importance of a book like this can be. There’s so much power in it, and it’s such a privilege to be able to do so. And learning even how to do this process, and learning what it means to kind of work with a publisher. And all of that, sometimes unknown, inaccessible, out of reach opportunities. And I think that it’s so important that as we learn is this how it works? How are we sharing that back out to the folks that we might be working with that may not know it as much about that process? So I think to contribute to the design field in this way is an honor. It’s a privilege. I’m excited to do so. And I’m also really just thankful for everyone in the book. Because to be open and share their stories also can be a very vulnerable position to put yourself in. And I’m mindful of protecting their stories, and making sure that they feel like they’re best represented. So I’m so just thankful for their contributions and participating, because it wouldn’t have come together without their stories.

Maurice Cherry:
Now you are an artist, you’re a designer, you’re an educator in academia. How do you balance all of that? Do you find that there are opposition at times? How do you make it all work?

Kelly Walters:
You see it as a kind of rotating hats. I think sometimes, the focus is on one thing more than the other during the year. Teaching fall and spring semester is really a primary focus. And then sometimes in the summer, what’s really nice is there’s a bit more expanse of time to work on more self-driven projects or other kind of commissioned works and things like that. Commissioned work happens I think year-round. So it happens even as I’m teaching, and collaborations with different people as well.

Kelly Walters:
So I think that it can be a lot at times. But I also, as I’ve gotten older, kind of navigating what it means to kind of rotate the focus and figure out what takes precedent right now. And how can I sort of not overtax myself, but create a balance such that things can rotate? And I think by seeing things rotate, I’m less scared that I’m never going to get back to X, Y, or Z? Or I won’t be able to do that kind of work or that kind of work. I think I’ve been more interested in telling myself that things can shift and rotate, and you don’t have to do everything at once. And I think that that has been really freeing for me. And it also just allows for a flexibility in yourself, and your life, and all the things that you want to try. There’s an opportunity to kind of space it out. Because what’s always important to sort of be aware of too is not trying to do too much where other things suffer, or you’re diluting the power of what it could be, because you just don’t have the bandwidth.

Maurice Cherry:
What would you say is the best thing about the work that you do?

Kelly Walters:
The best thing that I like is when I’m connecting, and meeting, and bringing people together. I think that that to me, of all the various projects, and specifically all the different design projects where I’m meeting people or people are meeting each other. To me, that’s the most important thing and the most exciting thing. The most beautiful thing. I’m just thinking vividly of times when they’re like, “You’re over there? I didn’t know you were there.” Being able to kind of help facilitate that is exciting.

Maurice Cherry:
If you hadn’t gotten into design, or I would say even if you hadn’t gotten into education, what do you think you would be doing?

Kelly Walters:
I would be talking about race probably still. Whether, I mean in fairness in college, I was a dual major. So I studied graphic design in the art program, and I also was a communication sciences major. So if I wasn’t doing design, I feel like I would still be facilitating conversations around topics of race and representation. I may not have been a designer I guess. But I think I would probably be still very focused and interested in these topics if I wasn’t doing what I’m doing right now.

Maurice Cherry:
Do you feel creatively satisfied?

Kelly Walters:
I think there’s always more that can be learned or done. And I think what I’m learning is that sometimes, it’s okay not to have it all immediately. Does that leave you wanting more, wanting to try more? Perhaps. But I think I’m okay with that. I think I’m okay with not fully always having everything, and working towards more. Working for something else. Because I feel like it creates a drive and makes it so that you’re not complacent and staying in place. So I think it’s okay that I’m not always satisfied, if that makes sense.

Maurice Cherry:
No, that makes sense. Where do you kind of see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work would you love to be doing?

Kelly Walters:
I feel like in the next five years, I would love to work towards other book projects. I would love to collaborate with other designers. Some of which is happening right now. I want to keep learning. I want to keep growing. There’s so much that I still don’t know. I want to continue to find ways to connect with folks or bring people together. I know that seems really simplistic, but I think it can be … it’s actually more challenging. And to do it successfully can be an art. I’m learning what it means to be able to do that and to kind of work with folks passionate, interested, and excited about all aspects of design. And I just want to continue to be inspired by those that are doing really interesting work right now and celebrate what they’re doing just as much as I’m trying to work towards things in my own practice.

Maurice Cherry:
And just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more about you and about your work online?

Kelly Walters:
You can find my work on Bright Polka Dot. And that is if you’re searching online, you’ll find it in the browser. And then on Instagram and Twitter, I’m also @brightpolkadot. So you can find me there as well.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well Kelly Walters, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for really talking about the focus behind your work. I’m excited to read the new book. Actually [Wes 00:50:48] sent me a copy, so I’m excited to kind of really get into it. But for those that are listening, we’ll put a link to it in the show notes so people can check it out. But no, I really like the approach that you have to your work. And I hope that people kind of feel empowered and inspired from hearing your story. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Kelly Walters:
Thank you so much for having me.

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