design student Archives - Revision Path

September means it’s time for back to school, so what better way to kick off the month here on Revision Path than by talking with a design student? Meet Zariah Cameron, a soon-to-be graduate of North Carolina A&T and an up-and-coming voice in the design industry.

We talked about going through her senior year and working as an intern during this pandemic, and we also spoke about the AEI Design Program, an initiative she started to foster and establish relationships with partner companies to create a pipeline for Black college students. Zariah also shared some of her future goals, current obsessions, and what she’s learned from her internships throughout college. Keep an eye out for this young designer — she’s definitely going places!

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Zariah Cameron:
Hi everyone. My name is Zariah Cameron. I am a senior graphic design student at North Carolina A&T State University. Within the past two years, I’ve been independently studying UX design, which is now the space that I’m in. And I’m now evolving into a UX equity strategist. It’s now my evolving role.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice. How has the summer been going for you?

Zariah Cameron:
This particular summer is definitely been an unexpected turn of events in the best of ways I could say. Of course, just the opportunities of being able to speak and be in spaces where I definitely feel supported by my black community, specifically Black Designers has been great, but it has been hectic. I’ve been working my internship as a UX designer and then preparing for my last semester of school and just with my program and all the things we’re gearing up for. So it’s been a very busy summer. I’m trying to find ways to prevent burnout and exhaustion, especially again in the middle of pandemic. I’m currently home. I haven’t really gone anywhere in a year and a half, so I think that mental exhaustion is hitting me a little bit.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. This whole year, I mean, especially I think this summer in particular, it is probably harder than last summer, well for two reasons. One, we have a vaccine. And two, people aren’t taking it. COVID rates are going back up. And so, I really feel for, I mean, not just parents right now that have unvaccinated children, but also students right now. This is such a pivotal time in your development right now, from 18 to 21, 22-ish, you don’t really get this time back. And for it to be take in place during such a very stressful time in the world right now is really tough. But I mean, given all of that, what are you kind of doing for self care? How are you maintaining yourself while taking on all these responsibilities?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, I feel like I always tell people sometimes it’s not enough time in the day, but I’ve been trying to force myself to implement that time and schedule that time because for a lot of people that do know me, I am a scheduler. If it’s not on my calendar, it pretty much doesn’t happen. So I’ve been trying to schedule in that time, whether it be through writing, whether it be through even binge watching. Just to have some mindless TV to just get my mind away from all the other responsibilities that I have. Going outside for a walk. I love hiking and going in nature whenever I can. And also, just journaling has been another way of me kind of releasing and relaxing from everything.

Maurice Cherry:
How would you say you’ve changed over the past year?

Zariah Cameron:
Gosh, I’ve changed a lot, but I really didn’t think that I’d change within a year being in the same exact place that I have been since March of 2020. But it’s surprising what a year will do. And within a year, I feel like I’ve gained so much confidence within myself and been able to really vocalize a lot of the things that I was maybe apprehensive or scared or anxious to express, whether it was me as an individual designer, as a person, as a community leader now. Those types of roles, I never really saw myself being a part of a year ago. And now, I’m leading the community. I’m advocating for other black design students. I’m being able to speak on that work through various different speaking engagements, which, one, I never at all saw myself as being that person to kind of go up and speak. But now I’ve just definitely seen myself evolved with being more authentically myself and being able to be comfortable doing that even if other people may have their own negative opinions towards that, and also being okay with that as well.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I mean, speaking of opportunities, you spoke at this year at Where are the Black Designers Conference that they had back in June. I mean, that was a pretty stacked panel that you were on. The panel was called Navigating Different Design Professions and Levels as a Black Designer. And you’re on there with people that have been on Revision Path before; Kevin Bethune, Timothy Bardlavens, Gabrielle Smith, Raja Schaar, who I think is a professor at… I think she’s at either at Temple or Drexel.

Zariah Cameron:
Drexel.

Maurice Cherry:
One of the two. I get the-

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, at Drexel.

Maurice Cherry:
At Drexel. I get the E in Temple and Drexel mixed up, but yeah, she’s at Drexel. And then moderated by Omari Souza, who someone else has been on the show. I mean, you held your own in that panel. Those were some really heavy hitters. I mean, to be able to really speak about the work that you’re doing and you’re still a college student is great. I mean, I think that’s wonderful.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. One, they’re all amazing people. Raja, I’m very close with. And so, to just be on the panel with her was just amazing, and just having that community. And I tell people being able to speak at the Where are the Black Designers Conference was really a full circle for me because I was an audience member just last year watching that. And so to be able to have that opportunity to speak on that panel and speak about my experiences was definitely an honor.

Maurice Cherry:
Now, you mentioned this internship that you were doing, or you just finished up. That was at Ally Bank. How was that experience?

Zariah Cameron:
It’s definitely a surprising experience. I did not know what to expect. I mean, I had gotten accustomed to… Well, I got a feel for the culture of the company with a few of events that I had been able to participate through my university and just Ally being a connected company. But I really didn’t know how that experience was going to be virtually. And from my past experiences, I kind of mixed the idea of interning or working at another financial institution. And so, I really wasn’t sure what this experience would be like.

Zariah Cameron:
I had expressed to my recruiter before I even accepted the offer and even when I accepted the offer that I really want to focus on inclusion work, equity work within the design space. Honestly, I really wasn’t sure how I was going to do that in a bank and what that would even look like, but I definitely had a really good experience and just being able to not only connect with other interns that look like me, that went to other HBCUs and even non-HBCU students and just the closest we had together in that virtual space, but also having like, I realized how important it is to have a manager that really supports you in your growth and your goals. And so I was very grateful to have a manager that did that. He kind of helped me to maneuver through that summer. And through that, I was able to get connected to this inclusive design team that was actually just starting up within our design organization.

Zariah Cameron:
And so, being able to be a part of that and lead a lot of discussions that I believe needed to happen, it allowed me to kind of realize or see what role I fit best within design, and also to see the importance of how design fits into helping marginalized communities reach that economic mobility and financial freedom. And so, it was definitely a great moment for me, and also just to have people that were supportive with me during that process too.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s interesting how financial institutions are starting to become sort of the vanguard of that kind of equity center design. We’ve had several people on the show before from Capital One. That’s such a huge part of their design ethos, is making sure that as you’re saying about underrepresented or marginalized communities have that financial freedom, but just the level of care that they put into all of their interactions to make sure that equity is part of the goal from conversation design, to even how they sort of lay out the physical layout of their banks and everything. It’s really interesting how that sector has been sort of a forefront when it comes to that.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, I definitely agree. I think I was able to see that from a financial lens and being able to have those conversations of like, “Hey, we really need to focus on the culture of our customers and focusing on working with our communities” and being able to provide this assistance, or, “Who are we actually excluding in these conversations?” and uncovering what our biases are or our assumptions are of our customers, or even people who could be potential customers of our bank and being able to create that organic relationship because we are an online bank. And so we have to be able to foster some type of connection to them, especially if we’re not going to be face-to-face.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I mean, look, my money is at Ally. So I trust that they’re doing the right thing. They’re doing something right. Let’s talk about the AEI Design Program. I first heard of this actually at the Where are the Black Designers Conference this year when you were speaking about it. But tell me more about the project. I mean, you started this while you were still a student. I mean, you’re still a student now, but you started this while you were at North Carolina A&T, right?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, I did. I started this right after actually Where are the Black Designers last year, and I was just very empowered and inspired by [inaudible 00:13:45]. I was able to connect with so many different black designers and have that support in that community. But unfortunately, I realized that a lot of what I was seeing, they were professionals. And I wanted something where there was a space just for us as students. Looking at my own journey, I realized that there were so many gaps that I was missing, and not just within my own education, but just the support whether it be mentorship, sponsorship, things like that, that were hindering me from really fully being successful or having access to certain resources or just knowledge in general that would help me get myself in that door of even just landing my first internship.

Zariah Cameron:
I realized there was a lot of other students, whether they went to a PWI or an HBCU, were experiencing those same challenges and they really didn’t have any type of community. No matter where they were, they didn’t feel any sense of belonging. And I wanted to bring that element to this space. And of course, there are tons of design student communities that were out there, but I wanted there to be a community just for us. And so we’ve evolved. I’ve evolved ever since then. I think AEI has definitely helped me to evolve into a leader that I never expected. I’ve always wanted to be some form of a leader, I just didn’t know what. And being able to have this program outside of just school has allowed me to flourish and have my own space and create a freedom to put all of these things out here with our programs, our events, all those different things. And also to be able to reach a larger audience than just the students that are within my school.

Zariah Cameron:
And so I was leading a team of three other students. And now we’re growing. We just added a few more team members to our group. And so I’m really excited of what we’ll be able to accomplish this upcoming school year too.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, as far as when you’re doing all this organizing and you’re getting students and stuff together, are events kind of part of this as well? Are you staging any sort of virtual events?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. All of our events are virtual because I realized, again, there was that access component, and I want students to be able to access us even beyond this pandemic if we get out of it, and just being able to have access to those resources whether you’re in our state, whether you go to our school or you’re not. And that’s what I want to be, provide through this program. Actually, within the next few weeks, we’ll be actually launching our Fall Design Bootcamp where students will be able to work with our company partners and create a design solution based on their stated problem. And so I’m really excited for this because it not only gives an opportunity for students to connect with each other, with other black students, but also for them to connect with companies and for them to see firsthand on a more personal level of how these companies operate, what their processes are like, and to ask those hard questions and for the companies to just see that talent that’s there. So I’m really excited for this, in particular for this year.

Maurice Cherry:
How would you like to see AEI continue to grow? I mean, it sounds like you’re already on a good path right now.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, I’m really excited. I mean, of course, I’m hoping to have more company partnerships of course. But I mean just this year, this year in January, three or four of my students got landed their very first design internships. I think two of them are at Facebook right now. One of them’s at Spotify, and one of them landed a full time gig at Allscripts. I basically help them to transition through their interview process. And so, to see them land those interviews and land that offer was so thrilling for me. That’s one of my goals that I want to do this school year, as well as to continue to allow students to receive those offers and find a place where they feel comfortable and safe.

Zariah Cameron:
I also want within this next year to transition into our mental health initiative. A lot of students, especially during this pandemic, have definitely had burnout, have had several different experiences where their mental health has been at risk. Especially as a creative, I feel like we sometimes burn ourselves out even more because we’re exhausting so much creative energy. And so, I think one of my goals is to really start implementing different sessions or conversations around the importance of mental health and just finding that joy in our lives as black people and helping to separate ourselves from all the trauma that we have to endure and see and experience. And then I think my final thing is I’m in the process of making us an official nonprofit. So our main goal is the bootcamp, this mental health initiative, and leading into our nonprofit status.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s amazing. I mean, I’d take my hat off to you for being able to accomplish all of that even while you’re in school and doing these internships. I mean, that’s really admirable. I mean, I have to say you’re getting your career off to such a fantastic start right now, like you said, just helping out with community, it’s one thing to be able… Of course, you’re doing internships and being able to speak and stuff like that, but then to also give back to that community at the same time is, I mean, that’s really admirable.

Zariah Cameron:
Thank you. I definitely appreciate it. I think the reason why I wanted to start this out while I was in school is because I can see it from the lens of the student and I understand what those struggles are and what I’ve experienced. And I’m able to really advocate for what is a need. And not that people who are outside of school or far moved from school can’t advocate for those things, but I think within my current generation and just being within in the know of what really is going on and the realities of these educational institutions, I’m able to really speak on those gaps, those issues, and what solutions need to be implemented to move forward.

Maurice Cherry:
No, that makes sense. Students know what students need, you know? I mean, I couldn’t possibly guess what students now would want. I’m 20 something years removed from that so I couldn’t tell you. I mean, to be able to do it from that perspective is also a really added benefit.

Maurice Cherry:
Just to kind of switch gears a little bit here, because I’m curious where that spirit of volunteerism and everything sort of comes from. Tell me about where you grew up.

Zariah Cameron:
I grew up about… I always say I’m from Atlanta, Georgia, because a lot of people, when you say somewhere else, they’re like, “What? Where are you from?” So I’m about 30 minutes on the south side out from the city of Atlanta.

Zariah Cameron:
Design was never really a thought in my mind, that I would ever major in design. I’ve always seen myself as creative with writing, being an outlet, whether it be poetry, things like that, or even just expressing myself in a lot of different ways, but never really saw myself going into design. Because I was such a strong writer, I actually had in my mind all the way until my senior year that I was going to be a journalism major. That’s what I wanted to do. Everyone was always telling me that I was a strong writer and that was the direction that I was going to take.

Zariah Cameron:
But I was very fortunate enough to have the opportunity, for those that don’t know me, I went to a year-round school. That allowed me to have breaks in between the year when other students were in school. During that time, I was able to be around my dad who works in the College of Computing at Georgia Tech. And I was submerged in technology. I was just completely at awe by computer science and how tech was able to just change and impact lives. And through that, just being around there, I was able to work with Black Girls CODE and work with students and teach them and volunteer in those different ways. I think through that, it was like, “Wow, I’ve really liked doing this type of work.” I don’t know how I’m going to do it or what I’m going to do, but I really do like the space. And I also really love working with children and teaching them in some capacity because I love just when their eyes light up when they’ve learned something new, especially when it relates to technology.

Zariah Cameron:
And so at the time, design really wasn’t this great big… Especially UX design, it was not this great big buzz word or exciting space to be in that people were talking about, especially within academia. And so everyone was like, “Okay, if you want to be in technology, go into computer science. That’s the only way. That’s the only possible way you’re going to be in technology if you want to impact tech.” And so I was like, “Okay, well I guess this is the path that I want to go into.” And I always tell this part of the story because I think it’s important for students and anybody else to know and understand the path is not going to be perfect. It’s definitely not going to be linear. And just because you get one rejection doesn’t mean that is end of your journey.

Zariah Cameron:
And so, I applied to our Computer Science Program at my school, and I got rejected. I thought it was the end of the world and that I was not going to be able to make the impact that I wanted. But I’m very glad that I did get that rejection because I don’t think I would be where I am right now in my journey. My school has a Graphic Design department which explores elements of game design and obviously the foundational elements of graphic design. We learn a little bit of CAD and modeling and all these different areas. I decided to kind of go into that space because I’m like, “Okay, well I can go into design, and maybe still somewhat have an impact in technology.” Through that, I was able to transition into UX design very easily through just like me researching, doing things on my own.

Zariah Cameron:
UX design isn’t offered a part of our curriculum. But through that foundation that I did have through my school and just the support of my teachers, specifically my black teachers, they were able to kind of help me and guide me into this new space that I am now in, which is UX design. Like I said, this path was definitely not linear. It took me a long time to figure out what exactly I wanted to do. But I think with UX design, it allows me to get the best of both worlds of working in tech if I want to and being able to still be in that design space while also just being able to understand people and implement their stories and understand who they are to implement within the experience. I think that’s probably one of my favorite parts about UX is, it’s really is all about people. And I think being a writer, I’m a natural storyteller. And so I think it always resonates with me when I’m able to connect someone’s story to the experience that we’re creating within design and tech.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a really great way to sort of tie those two concepts together. For a while, Revision Path had a kind of this writing initiative, we called it Recognize, where it was sort of like an essay submission sort of thing. People would submit essays around a certain theme, but they would have to be designed focused. For last year for example, the theme was Fresh. And so you would write design essays that sort of in some way encompass the theme of Fresh. My goal with it is actually kind of the goal of what you were sort of alluding to. It’s about using writing and using texts and using storytelling as a way to kind of also put forth these certain design concepts or things like that.

Maurice Cherry:
Unfortunately, Recognize was not super successful. We have to kind of shut it down this year. I hope to bring it back at some point in the future. But I like how you’re able to kind of tie into what writing does for you as a designer and how that storytelling ties into what you do with UX design. I think that’s a really powerful connection to make.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. Like I said, I think I finally found my space. Just because I think even within computer science, there is that level of strategy and critical thinking that I had the knack for. And now to be able to kind of have that skill set or mindset and implement that ideology within design has been just really great for me. I think now I’ve definitely seen myself evolve from just an individual contributor, like an individual design contributor, to this person that is really being able to lead conversations about how we think about design, in again as I mentioned before, that inclusion equity space.

Maurice Cherry:
Tell me more about the program at A&T. I think when folks look at HBCU and then they think about design, I’m not sure of North Carolina A&T is a school that they may readily think about. But can you just tell us like a little bit about the program and sort of what you’re going to remember the most from being at A&T? Because you’re about to graduate this semester.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. I wish that our program was a little bit more marketable. I wish they marketed us a little bit better, because I think a lot of students would benefit from just having black teachers that really want you to succeed and do well. And I think also, I wish that our particular department sat in a different space because I think sometimes we can get overlooked. So we sit within the College of Science and Technology. And so when a lot of people think of science and technology, you think of biology, chemistry, mathematics sits within that space too. And then you’ve got IT, informational systems, all those things like that. So you’ve got all these other majors, and then we have graphic design. And so, a lot of people whenever they think about the College of Science and Technology, they don’t think about that graphic design technology space being an option for them to major in especially because North Carolina A&T is especially known for agriculture, in the name, Engineering especially is one of the largest areas that we’re known for.

Zariah Cameron:
So again, design is really second priority. But I wish that it wasn’t, because again, like I said, I’ve had really great professors that have really helped me grow as a designer. Some definite tough love that’s been given to me and brief anecdote. I had a professor. I failed his class in my first year. I really just didn’t do well and had to retake it. And the second time, I got a B+. He had written and I told him, I was like, “Thank you. Thank you for helping me to get to this point.” And he was like, “I already knew you could do it. You just have to really prove to people that you can do it and you have the capability because I know it’s already in there.” And just him really believing in me and giving me that tough love that I needed, just helped me to appreciate not only him more but the space that I’m in, and really been able to push myself that much harder and see what I can achieve.

Zariah Cameron:
I think having those people in your corner that are looking out for you in that way is one of the best experiences. Now, reflecting and looking back, now that I’m getting ready to graduate, it’s something that I definitely love and will miss. Yeah, I have some more thoughts, but I’ll stop talking [inaudible 00:31:10].

Maurice Cherry:
No, I have to say that’s one thing about HBCUs that… I don’t know. You just don’t get that at other schools. The professors really do care. And that’s not to say that at PWIs and at other schools, other professors don’t care. But I mean I can only speak from my experience also going to an HBCU. I went to Morehouse. I mean, there’s just a certain different level of care. They’re really looking out for you in ways that you may not even really be considering. I mean, don’t get me wrong. There’s some professors that are like, “You’re just another student, just another number, et cetera.” But I think once you get into your degree program, you’d be surprised just how much the professors are really rooting for you and wanting to make sure that you succeed, because it looks good on them if they have graduates that come out of the program. So it makes sense that at HBCUs that they would just be more open to that.

Maurice Cherry:
And then of course, it’s just as black people helping black people. I’ve had several other folks on the show that when they talk about their time at other design institutions that I won’t name, but they’re not HBCU, but at other design institutions, it’s rough. Their educational experience is rough. There’s no mercy. And certainly not anywhere their having black professors or even really able to design towards their culture in the work that they do. I mean, you have all these different inherent benefits that come with being able to study at an HBCU. And just from what you’re sharing about the program, sounds like it’s a really great program. I mean, NC A&T overall is a great school. I think it’s one of the biggest research institutions in North Carolina. I’m guessing probably second to UNC.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:32:59]. I mean, of course, every school has it’s… I really had to advocate for myself and try to reach out to certain people and do certain things that I was like, “Hey.” That I actually saw everything that these companies had to offer, the realities of what things were, and being able to kind of bring that back to the students within my program and show that like, “Hey, there actually is great black designer talent that needs to be sought after.”

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Duke is the other school that I was thinking about.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah.

Maurice Cherry:
Folks that went to Duke don’t kill me, I was like… But I know that North Carolina A&T though, is one of the big research institutions in the state. So that’s good to know. And also while you were at A&T, you worked at a number of internships. I mean, you mentioned Ally. But you worked at what? Like two or three other companies while you were there, right?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, I did. I worked for Wells Fargo last summer. It’s kind of weird because all my internships that I’ve had have all been virtual so I have no idea what this corporate world will look like once we go back in person. That’s going to be a whole another, I guess, hill or road we’ll have to cross to get there. But yeah, I interned at Wells Fargo. I wasn’t a designer, but it gave me the perspective of just how things work, how systems work, how corporate space work, how financial institutions are run, and in some ways being that fly on the wall of seeing the realities of what things were. But it gave me perspective of not just… Even though I wasn’t a designer for that particular role, I was a QA, I was a quality assurance analyst. And so that role taught me how to really pay attention to the details, the importance of how things work and how things function within a platform, a tool, and pointing out those shortcomings of how we can really better improve those products for the user.

Zariah Cameron:
And so, that really helped me to analyze a lot things better when it came to actually designing. And then recently what this is, I worked for a startup. It was really small. That was really catered to black women’s hair and finding the right hair regimen for them. And that was a really great experience to kind of work on it from the ground up and being able to work with other black women that had natural hair and just pouring my own experience, my own stories, and other people’s research and hair journeys into that. So that was a really fun experience. It’s also challenging in that quick, fast paced type of environment.

Zariah Cameron:
And then recently, before Ally I worked at PepsiCo as sort of a UX, UI designer, which I focus more on UI. And so, I realized I’m a better UX designer than a UI designer. I think people definitely should understand the difference because I think sometimes we group it together, but they definitely are separate things and have their own responsibilities. And I think people are stronger or, I guess, weaker in certain spaces. I definitely saw myself as more of a UX designer. But through that experience, I learned so much. I learned about the responsibilities and the job of a UI designer and how much work it takes in the input and all the different intricacies that you have to think about when developing certain things.

Zariah Cameron:
So that was a really good experience as well. And then I think just as I’ve grown, I’ve evolved and figured out what’s the best space for me to be in through all these different internship opportunities that I’ve had, and just where do I not only feel the most supported but also safe because I’ve definitely thought a lot about myself as a black designer. I’m not just a designer working at a company. But really just caring about the impact that I make. And does that company actually, or the people really care about my wellbeing and not just my individual contribution to the product?

Maurice Cherry:
And you say all these internships that you’ve done have been virtual. What is that like? What is a virtual internship like? Just kind of give a brief example of what that’s like.

Zariah Cameron:
I’m not going to just say, oh my gosh, it sucks, but it is a lot harder. Because, one, with PepsiCo for example, I was working or having to interact with working on a project with a physical product. And so it was a lot harder because it was like, “Okay. I’m designing for a physical product that I can not see, feel, touch anything. I can’t interact with to see how it functions to better make improvements on it.” And so it was more or less like, “Okay, well I have to watch videos. And I have to figure out, watch customer reviews on this product to see what are their pain points without me actually being able to physically interact with it myself, which was definitely harder.

Zariah Cameron:
I think if I was in the office, I could just go to that room, look at the product, be like, “Okay, this is what’s wrong.” And I think it’s even more crucial for black people because you do want to make sure that this is a safe and healthy space for you. I heard a lot of people have very toxic experiences from companies. I think that’s the one big fear because you can easily hide behind a screen and you don’t really know what that culture is like, and they could be portraying something that may not even be realistic. And then you get in the office and it’s something completely different.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. It’s interesting. The conversation in tech over the past, I don’t know, maybe like six or seven years has been around, of course, making sure that these tech companies and design focused companies are safe spaces for black people and people of color to work in. And now with the pandemic and it’s driving people to have to work from home, how do you make sure that that same feeling is also existing in the virtual space? I mean, I just know from the past few places where I’ve worked at that have been sort of a hybrid of remote and even in the office, and then of course with the pandemic driving it to be fully remote, it’s amazing how different sort of microaggressions can kind of pop up or just different sort of ways that you can feel left out in a way.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, I think that’s something that companies are still going to have to deal with and try to figure out as it looks like this is not abating anytime soon. We’re still going to be on this kind of hybrid/fully remote sort of workforce thing. But how do you make sure that those digital spaces are also going to be safe and accommodating for your workers that are people of color? That’s the best way to put it.

Zariah Cameron:
I definitely agree. I think working with Ally is probably one of the best [inaudible 00:40:36] so far, just because, like I said, I’ve never been able to connect with other interns in this way. I think that was a big thing. The way that they’re recruiting was… I don’t even know how they did it, but they just chose a really good intern class that reflected the culture of the company that they were really trying to promote. Of course, again like I said, every company has its shortcomings and things like that, but I believe like from the top down, everyone was welcoming and really wanting to promote that culture where you can email an executive and they would reach out to you and they would meet with you and answer your questions or talk to you and have a brief conversation.

Zariah Cameron:
I think that openness is something that you don’t always get a chance to have and get exposure to. And so, I think not only having a intern class but also having your recruiters really just help you have that personal experience as best as you can in this virtual space. Again, like I said, it was hard not being able to be in the office and collaborate. Especially as designer, it’s so hard. You’ve got to find all these alternative ways to collaborate together to design, to communicate virtually, that it can make things a little bit more difficult. But I mean, if the people are good, I think the collaboration will kind of fall in line with that energy and that team chemistry.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Right now is your… I mean, again, you’re at this very pivotal point in your educational career as well as just your professional career, about to get out there in the working world. Do you feel supported as a black designer?

Zariah Cameron:
There’s many different ways we can take that. I want to say yes, but I feel like yes is such a short answer. I think depending on what area of my life that I am a black designer, it could go yes, or maybe, or even no. I think with my Black Designers community, I’ve been able to find amazing mentors/friends who have really supported me and been like, “Hey, if you want to take a break, it’s okay if you want to take a break. We’re still going to be here when you come back and we’re going to be holding down the fort till you get back while you’re gone.” And being able to be comfortable and also vulnerable with these people has been such a privilege because I know a lot of people don’t get a chance to do that or don’t feel comfortable enough to.

Zariah Cameron:
So I think in that way, this community like Where are the Black Designers, my Black Ignite community, those people have really allowed me to be comfortable being my authentic self and also being vulnerable enough to express certain concerns or issues that I may have that’s going on in my life, whether it be personal or within my career. So I think in that way, I feel supported. I think in a corporate setting, I’m still navigating through that. I would say yes from certain people, but of course, I’m still getting a feel for what that is and what people’s intentions are. I think for the most part, I would say yes.

Zariah Cameron:
But then again, it’s just been something I’ve been thinking about. Even looking at Simone Biles and her deciding to leave the Olympics because of her mental health. And people just giving so much backlash to her making that decision because she was prioritizing her mental health and just the exhaustion energy that she was giving out and probably just how tired she was. And just seeing how people only appreciate your skill and the value you bring over your actual health and you as a person. I think that’s the biggest thing that I’m concerned about is like, “Are you really caring about me and my self as a human being? Or is it just the value that I bring to this company? The value that I bring to this community? The value I bring to this school?” or whatever it may look like. That’s where I’m trying to find what that balance is, and who are those people that I should have in my corner, and who are those people that will have access to those versions or sides of me. So that’s kind of where I am.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, it’s really tricky now. I mean, I say that as someone that’s been in the industry for a while. I mean, certainly within the past 10 to 12 years or so, we’ve seen a dramatic increase in really just black spaces at design. There’s podcasts like this, but there’s conferences, there’s meetups, there’s initiatives like what you’re doing with AEI Design Program. A lot of that stuff really didn’t exist 10 years ago. It was hard to find. And so it can be interesting now, especially if you exist among different identities. Like, if you’re just like a cis black man, and there may be one thing. But what if you’re a woman? What if you’re a member of the LGBT community? What if you identify a different part of the gender spectrum? The level of support that you would get as a black designer can even vary within all of those spaces and so. It’s still evolving like you said, I think. It’s a big question with a not so simple answer. So I feel you there.

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. That’s kind of where I’m at with all of this. It’s like in certain places I could say, yes, that I do feel supported. In other spaces, it’s like you’re on the fence and you’re not really completely sure.

Maurice Cherry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Zariah Cameron:
You still have to only give one element of you. I guess that’s where code switching comes in. But even then, it’s like code switching is this element of losing a sense of your identity. That’s a whole another thing that I’m trying to navigate through.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. What are you obsessed with right now?

Zariah Cameron:
In terms of personal life?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah, I was going to say you can answer that any way you like. Personal, professional, whatever.

Zariah Cameron:
I would say… What am I obsessed right now? I think right now it’s maybe a weird answer, but I’m honestly obsessed with the friendships that I’ve gotten to have over this past year. It’s very overwhelming. I’ve never had friend group of black designers or even designers that have really been so overwhelmingly loving to me, not only my career but just me as a person, and really being that support system that I needed. I think for so long…

Zariah Cameron:
I mean, even the people that are like, “Oh, well you go to HBCU. Of course, you have support.” And I’m like, “Yes, but even within that HBCU, there are groups.” There are groups. And so, sometimes you don’t always fit into those groups. Or even within those groups that you may be a part of, you still don’t completely feel a sense of belonging. And so to be able to go in a space, be around people that care about me and love me for just who I am and whether I change or evolve or whatever phase of my life that I’m growing into, that they’re there to support me and guide me through those different shifts, those different transitions.

Zariah Cameron:
And I know, like I said, weird answer in terms of being obsessed. But I think, like I have my own podcast with Heatherlee who’s the founder of Black Ignite, and just how our lives cross within a year, I would have never imagined for our friendship to be where it is, going from professional relationship to this very personal friendship that I value very deeply and to be able to work on this podcast with her and hear her story and how much our stories literally are parallel to each other. And so being able to have people like her and other people like Mitzi, like my Design to Divest Community as well. Having them in my corner is something I’m truly become obsessed with and want to continue to be around and want to just have that energy around me, that healthy energy. Because sometimes being around your own people still isn’t healthy, so having those people in those relationships has been really great for me within this past year.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Aside from those friendships, have you had any mentors or anyone that have really kind of helped you out either over this past year or just along the way in your journey as a designer?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah. I’ve had a lot of different people, some that I’m very, very fortunate and very grateful to have in my life. And they’re all for different reasons. At first, at the start of my career or even school experience, I thought that I could really only have one said mentor, and that’s what it is. But as I’m evolving, I realized I need different mentors for different things, different spaces in my life. And so, I’ve had mentors that have taught me about just how to run my program, guiding me answering those questions as we’re moving into becoming a nonprofit, understanding elements of brand strategy for our program. Then I have mentors that who I now can call friends as well, who have helped me, guide me as a person and just where I need to go on my life.

Zariah Cameron:
And then of course, I have two of my really close professors. One in particular that has become a very good mentor to me, that actually was the one who got me into UX design that just I go for not only personal advice, but of course career advice as well. So I think over this past year, I’ve definitely had some great champions and mentors in my corner that are designated to different areas of my life to help me to flourish.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work would you like to be doing?

Zariah Cameron:
Getting my PhD.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay.

Zariah Cameron:
I mean, yes, that is a goal of mine. I’ve expressed I will not… a lot of people have told me like, “Oh, why don’t you just go ahead and get your PhD now?” I’m like, “I’m exhausted. I’m tired. I do not want to go through school again at the moment.” But I think eventually, right now I currently see myself leading a community, wherever that may be in, whether that be in the corporate space, I definitely see myself leading those conversations surrounding equity within the design space and growing in that, because that is a space that I want to continue to be in, in various different areas, whether it’s like I said, in the corporate space, leading my community, or even teaching. I think eventually I want to get my PhD within this element of design and psychology in understanding people. And to be able to eventually [inaudible 00:53:17] down the line teach to students, teach to that next generation college students that are coming in.

Zariah Cameron:
I think by then I already have that experience of being in the corporate world myself, and I can be able to instill that wisdom and have those connections to people through my community to be able to give back to those students that I’m teaching. That’s eventually where I want to evolve myself into.

Maurice Cherry:
And just to kind of wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more about you, and your work, and everything you’re doing online?

Zariah Cameron:
Yeah, one, they can find me on Medium, in terms of my writing. By the way, an article will be coming out, not through my Medium, but through the Ally Tech Blog on inclusive design being more than a buzz word. So definitely look out for that. And then you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m very active on there, and it’s of course just my name. And then you can find me at Instagram. It’s just my name, zariah.cameron. And then of course our program, our program’s Instagram, aeidesign_. You can find me active on all of those. Definitely feel free to follow me and stay connected, especially those who want to get plugged into my community, my program, and even companies wanting to work with us, and just people just wanting to connect and definitely open to that.

Maurice Cherry:
Sounds good. Well, Zariah Cameron, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show, for taking time to come out on the show. Like I said, it’s been a while since we’ve had a design student on the show, particularly one from an HBCU. But when I first heard about you at Where are the Black Designers and heard you speak and everything, I was like, “I got to get her on the show just to have her talk about what she’s doing.” I mean, just the fact that you’re accomplishing this much as a student, I think bodes so well for your future career. I’m really excited to see what you’re able to accomplish once you graduated and really got out there in the design world, and are able to make an even bigger impact. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Zariah Cameron:
No, thank you. It’s been such an honor, and thank you for asking such great questions. I love being able to share my story with you and the audience.

Transcript

Full Transcript

Maurice Cherry:
All right. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I am Cherry-Ann Davis and I am currently a master’s student at Zurich University of the Arts studying visual communication design.

Maurice Cherry:
And Zurich, that’s Zurich as in Switzerland, correct?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. Zurich as in Switzerland. I left my good hot island in the Caribbean to Zurich, another part of the world that I’ve not been before. Well, first of all, I never left my country for longer than a week before moving to Switzerland.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. And you’ve been there… I think you told me earlier, you’ve been there since February of last year.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. February 1st, 2020, I moved, I packed my four suitcases. It’s everything that I won and I hold dear in my life, and I brought with me. So many books. And I came by myself into a new world.

Maurice Cherry:
How’s it been adjusting to everything?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Well, one months after arriving, there was a global lockdown. So that adjustment period was quite hard because I didn’t know anybody. The one person that I knew, he kind of dropped me as soon as I got to Switzerland. So I was in a pandemic by myself, not knowing anyone in a flat with two other people upstairs.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And the people who were on my floor left, they went back to their countries to spend quarantine with their families, to spend that time. And I was just there by myself. Being new to school, not even having time to meet my classmates and get to know them. It was rough. It was real hard.

Maurice Cherry:
My goodness. I can only imagine. How did you get through that? Well, I mean, I guess you’re kind of still getting through it, right?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I am still getting through it. Enough prayers. I prayed a lot and I spoke to my therapist a lot, because as much as I was prepared mentally to move to another country, I was not prepared mentally to move to another country and be in so much isolation. Although I lived on my own when I was back in Trinidad, it was something that I could not comprehend.

Maurice Cherry:
As we’re recording this, so for people that know, we’re recording this right before Memorial day, so right near the end of May. What’s the situation like in Zurich or in Switzerland, I guess, as it relates to reopening or anything?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Right now, next Monday, all of the restaurants will be reopening to have both inside and outside guests. So for the last two weeks, they were just having people, they could dine on the patios or outside of your restaurants. But from this Monday, all the restaurants will be opened for both seating inside and outside. That is mainly because there’s a big drive to get people vaccinated.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I had my last shots yesterday and I’m scared as fuck because I’m thinking about all of the history with vaccination and being Black, and I’m in a predominantly White country. So my fear is just going off the radar right now. But Zurich is one of the cities that has opened up vaccination for all persons no matter your age group or your risk right now. So with that, they are trying to open more and more. Relaxing measures more and more. Sorry.

Maurice Cherry:
Which vaccine did you get?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I am not sure. I think it’s Moderna, but it might be AstraZeneca. I can’t remember. I was so nervous when they were telling me, I kind of blanked out.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. I mean, but it was one you had to get two shots for?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. So it was probably Moderna. I think actually those might be the only two shots that are available globally. I don’t know if Pfizer is or not. I’m not sure.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I think when talking to some of my friends yesterday, Pfizer was available in a different part of Switzerland. So Switzerland is actually… Well, Zurich is actually larger than my country. So at different parts of Zurich, you could get a different vaccine. So I’m just like, wow, that’s weird.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean all these news, and I’ve mentioned this on the show before. So for folks listening, I’m not trying to belabor the point, but I mean, all of the news around this has just been changing week after week, whether it’s availability, or restrictions and things opening up. There’s been such a rush back here in America, in the U.S. for things to reopen that it’s kind of staggering.

Maurice Cherry:
I mean, it was so interesting because I remember this time last year, there was so much about making sure people wash their hands for 20 seconds and wore a mask. And now that it’s masks off, I mean, everywhere, people are just… It’s going to be a wild summer in the United States because people are ready to get out.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Right now I get scared when I’m on the tram when I see someone not wearing a mask, I’m like, “Yo, so what are you doing? This is Corona.” And for me, it’s kind of baffling because back home in Trinidad, right now there’s a state of emergency. You can’t go anywhere between 9:00 and 6:00. And if you are going anyway outside of those hours, you have to have a good reason as well to be outdoors.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
You can’t exercise outdoors. I feel it for the people back home. And here I am having the opportunity to get a vaccine even because back home, they ran out of vaccines, and I am here with so much privilege and this man not wearing his mask, like what are you doing?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I know some Europeans that came, they flew over here last month to get the vaccine because the country that they were in, it didn’t seem that it was going to be available or they didn’t really have a sense of when the vaccines would be available. So they just flew over here, got it, and that was it.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Well, that’s an ability that very few have, that access to even leave your own country to get a vaccine. People don’t realize that privilege. I have friends in Berlin and they can’t even get the vaccine.

Maurice Cherry:
I think now it appears that vaccines are starting to get out to more countries from the U.S. because right now we’re at this point where supply is greatly outpacing demand. And partly that’s because prior to, I want to say maybe a couple of weeks ago, you really had to go to mass vaccination sites or maybe get them through your doctor or something, but now you can get them at pretty much any pharmacy. You can get it at-

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Really?

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. The availability has increased a lot. But even with that, some people, because it’s a… If they do a two shot like Pfizer or Moderna, they’re only getting the first shot and not the second one because people are talking about side effects and everything.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
That was one of the things that was happening in Trinidad. So before I think they ran out of the vaccines, a few people who are in the high-risk area, they were able to get the flu shot, and then they ran out of vaccine. So it was like, what’s going to happen now that they need to get a second shot. Do they know after wait to get the same brand of shots or would they get a second shot from another brand of medication? So it’s questions, just big question marks in Trinidad.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, let’s shift the conversation away from vaccines and all that sort of stuff. Talk to me about what you’re studying. You said you’re at the Zurich Institute for the Arts. Is that what it was?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Zurich University of the Arts.

Maurice Cherry:
Zurich University of the Arts. Thank you.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. I am doing visual communication design. I came with the intention of doing a project around pattern design on Trinidad and Tobago. Because I had so much time during Corona and I have to have a thesis to go along with my artifacts, I was able to think a little bit deeper into what I want my project to be, because I initially, I was just thinking about the diversity and the culture of Trinidad and Tobago being represented in some type of pattern design for fabric or wallpaper.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I told my interviewers when I was applying for the school, that will love to see a line of IKEA wallpapers that just shows the brilliance and vibrance of Trinidad and Tobago through pattern design, and he said, “Yes. We have partners in IKEA.” And I said, yes, that’s what I want my project to be.

Maurice Cherry:
Nice.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And during lockdown, I had way too much time on my hands, and I got to thinking, what does a pattern design actually say? And how does it benefit the design industry? And what would my thesis say? And what am I adding to the conversation? So it changed. It pivoted from being pattern design of Trinidad and Tobago as a thesis on the artifact, to the thesis now looking at how can designers who are not part of the Western world utilize their own culture to create inspiration for designs.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a really rich subject to go into.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yeah. For me, it’s something that I wanted when I was doing corporate design because I worked at a bank that was throughout the Caribbean. So we were operating in 17 islands at the time, and I was responsible for all of the visuals. So all of the marketing campaigns. I was responsible for creating the ads whether it was digital, or print, or even TV ads, I would be the person who would give approval along with my colleagues in Canada.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And a lot of times, my colleagues in Canada, I remember this one meeting, it was for a Christmas campaign, and they proposed an idea and I was the one reviewing it and providing the Caribbean context. And they were like, “Well, we’re not sure if you all have hardwood floors and you all use Christmas trees.”

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I’m like, “What do you mean if we have hardwood floors? Where do you think we live? On the beach and swinging from tree to tree? We have hardwood floors. We have tiled floors. We have [inaudible 00:15:42] just like everybody else.” And I basically had to let them know, hey, as much as you think that your view of things are better and your ideas are wrong, design, or even life, maybe more rich because of your position in Western world, we still have access to all of these things too.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Just do a simple Google search, and you’ll see how rich our countries are. And from that is where a seed was planted. Because so many times us as designers who don’t belong to the Western world, we still have to conform to a lot of the Western canon on how to design, on how we should market our products to people. And we most of the times don’t consider our audience, which is the people that we’re advertising to. They are also rich with diversity that we should reflect in our ads as well. So that was where the idea was based in.

Maurice Cherry:
I think that’s a marvelous idea. And it’s something that at least I know here in the States, there’s been a lot of talk around decolonizing design, which is sort of trying to free people’s mindsets away from honestly, from a Eurocentric vision of design like Swiss design, or German design, or French design, or whatever, by trying to free yourself from that and learn about designers from other cultures or even designers from different races so you can sort of add to your own design, knowledge, and research, and inspiration to create bigger and better things.

Maurice Cherry:
There was a couple of weeks ago we had Kaleena Sales, who teaches at Tennessee State University. And one of the focuses that she has for her work when she’s talking to her students and teaching her students is having them plum their own culture to put it into their work because she teaches at a historically Black college. Her students are Black. She’s Black. So that’s where you should be pulling from for your design, instead of trying to mimic, I don’t know, the Bauhaus or whatever.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. For me, I actually strengthened my idea in the BIPOC Design History course that was run by Polymode. So Silas Monroe and some other lecturers came together and they presented what a canon would look like if African-Americans were included in it. And for me, that opened my eyes to think, so why didn’t I learn about my own design history in school? I remember my design teacher always mentioning to us that good design is very clean and very Scandinavian or Swiss.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I’m like, but we have kind of more. We have so much color, and richness, and diversity. Why can’t I include that into my own designs? And for me, my thesis is more about showing designers that it can happen because I’m utilizing my own country, so Trinidad and Tobago, and our rich diversity, and history, and culture, and language in my artifact. So it’s more leaning towards a case study of how you can do it.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So it’s not just the theory around decolonization and postcoloniality. It is there, but it is centered in, this is what it is. This is how we do it. So many times when people do master’s and PhDs, it’s so academic level that a practitioner can’t understand what’s happening. And I want me, as a 22 year old designer, or aspiring designer to be able to say, I understand what she’s saying. I could do that. Now let me implement it in my own design processes.

Maurice Cherry:
That’s a really smart way to think about it. And you’re right. I mean, I know when I think about Trinidad and Tobago, because I went to college here in Atlanta, but we had a ton of Caribbean students, mostly from Trinidad and Tobago. And even just talking with them and hearing them talk about home, and the richness of their culture, and the food, and the music, and everything, why wouldn’t you want to infuse that into your design because that’s what you get inspired by.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yeah. There was a lecture recently at a workshop that I’m co-curating with the futurist, and Toshika Arno Sutton was there, and she was also part of the BIPAC Design History. And she presented an exercise that she did in her degree program, and it was around the genealogy of design. And she infused in it her musical influences, her literary influences, the designers that made sense to her that time.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And she mentioned that throughout, she noticed all of her non-design inspirations were of Black culture, but her design inspiration was not of Black culture because there were no Black designers that she was aware of at the time. And that’s when she pivoted her direction. And that’s part of my research so far. I’ve been interviewing my mentor, who is one of the lecturers in Trinidad who teaches almost all of the professional designers.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And she has been teaching for the last 30 odd years at the [inaudible 00:21:15] Institute. And she has said… Well, in the interview, she said, “Well, yes, we have our culture, but there’s a standards to design, there are rules design.” And I’m like, “Miss, but we have rules, but shouldn’t we be allowed to interpret the rules through our lenses that we live.”

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And she says, “Yes, Cherry, your visual vocabulary and your life experiences should influence how you design, but at the end of the day, it’s still based on what the clients want.” And that kind of broke my heart a little bit because I am there thinking as much as I am following the brief of a client, if my audience is in Trinidad, it should reflect my audience more than the rules of design.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Right now, tethering on should I even think about what decolonizing design should be? Or should I just say they are the rules of design and you could break it, but not too much right now. So it’s a confusing space to me as well.

Maurice Cherry:
I can see. I mean, I don’t know. My advice is to break it, that’s just me, but also I didn’t go to design school. So maybe don’t listen to that. But I mean, I can see where that conundrum exists. You definitely want to pull from what you know, but, wow, that’s so interesting. That’s so interesting to hear. I want to talk about the Futurist since you mentioned it. Can you talk about what it is and sort of what attracted you to it?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So The Futurist is a para academic organization. So it’s an Institute that provides guidance for writers and that’s how I initially engaged with it. So last year in 2020, there was a workshop called Troublemakers. It’s the second workshop that was held. And it’s basically any format of an online course, as well as a writing workshop for students who want to be a part of a community of let’s say troublemakers, literally.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So we are the ones who are doing texts on difficult subjects and themes that most universities don’t necessarily want to get involved with or get too deep in because it’s a hard topic to navigate. So for me, a Trinidadian being in a Swiss design school, and one of my professors actually asking me, “So what’s the difference between your work as a Trinidadian and a Jamaican student who was enrolled at the time?”

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I was like, “Well, She’s from Jamaica.” Those simple things that I needed a community to even understand some of the terms that I needed to negotiate, and Futurist was that community. So I started off in futurist as participants in a workshop, and I messaged and I said, hey, I want to be a part of this. If you need an intern, I’m available.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I have a lots of free time next year because I’m extending my studies and I want to be a part of this. And at the beginning of this year, I was looking for a job and I just came out of an interview to be a nanny for two kids. And I was like, Cherry, you can’t be on nanny for nobody children because you don’t have that level of patience. You have two degrees, and the moment somebody child turn to you and shout a little too loud, your Caribbean instinct might hit in and you might want to discipline the child.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And this is not Trinidad. People won’t understand this. And at that moment negotiating these thoughts with myself to not say yes to that type of job, I got an email from Nina and she was like, “Cherry, are you still interested in being an intern?” I was like, thank you, Jesus. You know my heart. And at that moment, I was like ,”Yes. Hell yes. I will send on my resume.” And she was so impressed with how I was in the workshop with my texts.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So at the workshop, you present a text that you want to work on for three months period, and within that period, you help… What was the word I’m looking for? You help other participants by reviewing their texts as well. So it’s a peer review, but under the guidance of added time three persons who were at The Futurist.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So in that, you give feedback to your partners, but you’re in a group of about six or seven persons and any group, you all just provide feedback on each other’s texts. And throughout, I was always able to provide guidance, or provide suggestions, or there was always a rapport of me helping. And that led to me being open and able to be a part of The Futurist. And this year, I co curated. So I came up with the program along with Nina, which is against the grain. It’s an online course, as well as the writing fellowship.

Maurice Cherry:
I’m looking at it now on the website and it says it’s an online course and fellowship program fostering critical perspectives on the designed past and democratizing access to design history writing in a broad sense. I love that The Futurist’s focus is on design politics and design writing. Is that just sort of born out of what Nina, who is the, I guess she’s what, the founder of Futurist?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes.

Maurice Cherry:
Is that sort of born out of what she wanted to do or did you see this more as a community need?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
It’s both. So the first aspect for all of our online workshops is we create a theme, and from the theme, we invite persons to sign up for the online course. This is the third iteration. And for this iteration, it was a payment for the persons who wanted to participate in the online course, and in your participation to the online course, you will be sponsoring the persons who wanted to take part in the writing course.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And this worked out really well because we were able to open the online course for more persons, as well as the writing course for 42 persons who are writing critical design theory texts. And this format provides also a community. We operate on slack mainly. So we have a community of over 250 persons. Any slack group for just this one workshop against the grain.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And last workshop, which was troublemakers, we had 50 persons, and this workshop was mainly focused on writing. But with this new iteration, we were able to do a bit more and open up the community to a larger amount of people. So we have people from seven continents all over.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. Seven, even Antarctica?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Okay. Maybe not seven continents.

Maurice Cherry:
I was going to say, if you all got a research scientist or some penguins or something, that’s pretty dope.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
But we do have one person doing research on the Dodo bird, which is quite interesting.

Maurice Cherry:
I love that the focus is on writing. And I guess the, I don’t know, eventually those pieces will get published on Futurist once they’re through with this workshop.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. So this is a format that has moved from the first workshop, which was The L.i.P. Collective, very focused on feminists writing throughout a period, and then truly troublemakers, a lot of the pieces are still being published. And with against the grain, this would provide texts that will be published on The Futurist.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So a lot of times when people do master’s research and they put their life into this, they put the two years worst of knowledge into this, it just sits in a drawer somewhere and nobody reads it. As much passion that is imbued in this work, nobody reads it. Nobody gets to see this research and Futurist provides the opportunity for this research to be viewed by as many persons as possible. And I think that’s one of the best things.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I could access to this as well because my text, as part of the troublemakers, was published recently. It is called Culture No Context where I was looking at the ethics of ethnographic museums. So I had a lot of beef with ethnographic museums when I came to Switzerland and I went to a couple. I was able to process that through the workshop, and it’s also part of my thesis for my master’s as well.

Maurice Cherry:
What is an ethnographic museum?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So ethnographic museums are museums that take cultural artifacts and displays in a artistic sense. So if you think of textiles or sculptural pieces from Africa, India, Oceana, South America, all of these things will be just on display in an ethnographic museum. Sometimes it may be a range and gallery style. So it might be curated for a collection, or it might just be in their archives open for people to view, which is another thing that was hard for me to deal with.

Maurice Cherry:
Interesting. Wow. I want to break a little bit from talking about, of course, your journey and the work that you’re doing in Switzerland just to go back to Trinidad and Tobago for a minute. Talk about what it was like growing up there.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Well, Trinidad and Tobago is the most beautiful place. Everybody will tell you their island nice, but my island real, real nice. But I grew up in [inaudible 00:31:24], which is a place that the news always portrays as one of the worst place in Trinidad and Tobago. That wasn’t really my experience. I experienced community. I experienced people looking out for each other.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes, there is violence in our communities, but it’s not as much as the news reports it to be. And I’ve always had this view that, hey, maybe what you read on the news is not always true, because it wasn’t always my lived experience. I went to school in places that people will associate as the worst areas of Port of Spain. So there’s a part of Port of Spain that people call wrongly bridge.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So there’s Picton, Nelson Street and Bethlehem Girls. These were three primary schools in the area and I went to Bethlehem Girls, and I fell in love with art in the primary schools of Bethlehem Girls in our area where there were people tune in ponds, people making mass costumes. There was always creativity and vibrance in every aspect of my life. Move on love.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And until is places where the pan came from, which is in national instruments. And carnival really is boosted in these areas that people don’t like the most. And I’ve always had a idea that, and creativity is born in the places where struggle is also overwhelmingly popular.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. What it sounds like is that you grew up around a lot of creativity and ingenuity from these so-called rough neighborhoods or these rough places.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yeah. There was so much ingenuity because you had to find ways to survive. You had to find ways to make money. You had to find ways in order to feed your family. My grandmother used to sell in a markets every weekend, and I used to be there with her. I had my own little stalls selling my own little things, trying to make money for my own self.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And at that time, I didn’t understand that she was teaching me about business on how to invite people so that you could sell them your products over the person next to you who may have the same products. And many times she would tell me to draw a sign and put the price and everybody else would just have the number $2 for a [inaudible 00:33:51] tomatoes.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I would take my time and I would draw it and I would put little sunflowers around it. And these little things, I think it may not have helped. But I think to myself that these may have invited people to come to our stall to buy more things. But in different ways, creativity was always around me.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
But sometimes I wasn’t aware of it at the time. And hindsight, it’s not 2020 anymore. Hindsight, is really you think that it makes you realize, hey, the lesson that you didn’t learn then, you’re learning now. We’re not talking about 2020 anymore.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. Now, when you were in Trinidad and Tobago, you started out at the College of Science and Technology and Applied Arts, and later you finished up at the University of Trinidad and Tobago. I’m totally basing this off of your LinkedIn. So please feel free to chime in and correct me if I’m wrong. But you kind of made this switch from marketing to design. Where did that shift come in?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
As a teenager, after my grandmother passed away, I moved in with my uncle and aunt and they really pushed me more towards the business side because I was always two minds about either business or art. I did both in high school. So I had to pay to do art because it wasn’t offered with the subjects that I wanted. So art was always something on the periphery. And they really encouraged me to go more to the business side.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I was like, well, if you’re sending me to do business, I’ll do business that I like, which was marketing at that time. I started in 2006, and at that time, the governments of Trinidad actually provided free tertiary education for all citizens. So you could go to college for free. And I went, and I got my associate degree in marketing, but then I decided maybe I could switch to art.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So I got a diploma and visual communication design. At that time I was like, what do I do next? I decided that I will go finish my degree in business because I am the type of person that once I start something, I like to finish it. So I wanted to get my degree in business. That was the moment I realized I don’t like business, having to do human resource management and organizational principles.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I’m the person who, as much as I can memorize theory, I like to be able to explain it and I could create a story out of it and not repeat it word for word. So that did not work out too well for me in those exams, but I passed, and I realized my passion really lies within being creative and telling stories.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And if I could do that visually, I’ll go back and get my degree in visual communication design. So after my business degree, I got my degree in graphic design at the same university. And it was a distance learning program. So it was a university in Sunderland in the UK, but there was a center in Trinidad that you go to and you would get the same qualifications.

Maurice Cherry:
Okay. So after you are studying and you make the switch to graphic design, and you’re doing that, what was your early career like after you graduated?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Well, after I graduated with my marketing associate degree, I got a job in a bank as an office assistant. So all of the other degrees, which is visual communication, and my two bachelor’s, those were done part-time. So I worked during the day and I went to school at night, which I will not recommend to anybody unless you have a lot of heart and determination.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
It was extremely difficult at that time. I was grateful that my job required no brainpower. So as an office assistant, I was basically just filing papers, enter drawers for the entire day. And then three years later, I got a promotion to an administrative assistant where I also had to deal with running the department.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So making sure all of the office supplies were in order and making sure all of the managers had whatever they need for meetings. That is when I realized I cannot do this office administration thing anymore. Some managers just don’t know how to speak to people, especially when they think that they are in a lower position than them.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And many times, I wanted to curse out my managers, but I remember that I had a job that paid for my degree and paid for all the things that associated with me in getting that degree. So doing design is never as simple as a business degree. You always have to get art materials. You have to think about printing the projects and all of these things.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
As much as the government was providing free tuition, I still had to think about how do I present a project to look professional. All these printing costs and all of these other things that you don’t necessarily think about before. So I had to keep my job. And I realized that within RBC, there is a internal graphic designer.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So when I was there as an office assistant, I looked through the company directory and I called the graphic designer at the time. I was like, hi, I want to do graphic design. I want to know what qualifications do you have? How did you get the job? And the person, she was really sweet. And she told me the school that she went to, and it was actually the same school that I was in at the time.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And she would help me with my assignments and helped me just to get the portfolio that I needed to become a graphic designer. And when she left, she told me, “Cherry, apply for the job.” I did not get a job the first time, but one year later, the person who replaced her left. And at that time, I was able to get work experience in graphic design.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So within the year of that person holding my spot as a graphic designer of RBC, I was able to teach graphic design with a government program at the time, which was retraining adults who wanted to learn a skill. So after not getting a job and feeling really disappointed, I was able to find something that gave me the experience. So the next time the job came up, I was able to apply again and get the job. So it works out in the end.

Maurice Cherry:
Wow. I mean, first of all, shout out to that woman for helping you out and letting you know this was an opportunity that you could take and also kind of motivating you to get to that point.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. She really did, and she’s still a friend till today. She messaged me this week.

Maurice Cherry:
What would you say is the best thing about the work that you do now?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
The best thing about the work that I do is that nobody tells me what I could do. So I initiate all my projects myself. It’s something that I never think that I could do because I have a knack for executing other people ideas really, really well. So you give me a vision. You tell me what you want to do. I sit down, I plan with you and we get this done. But when it comes to doing it for myself, there’s so much fear.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
There’s so much apprehension. But over the last year, 2020 has taught me if you are afraid, that just means you’re heading in the right direction, and your better mush the gas under the brakes. So just keep going full steam ahead, and that really helps me to think about how to approach these projects.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So a lot of the projects that I’m doing right now is around things that I’ve always loved. So I’ve always loved history, I’ve always loved music, I’ve always loved Trinidad. And a lot of my projects revolve around these things.

Maurice Cherry:
Have you found while you’ve been there in Switzerland, and I know places have been locked down, but have you found some, I don’t know, sense of community or some kind of sense of home there yet?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes and no. So for me, it was difficult to make friends because as any person who is moving to German speaking Europe will tell you if you don’t speak German, that’s the first strike against you. And I don’t speak German. And it was difficult for me to even have conversations with persons because most people can’t get past my accent even when I speak in my most standard English, as they would want to put it.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
People just so enamored by, “Oh my God, your accent is so beautiful.” But I’m asking for directions to go to the grocery. I need you to tell me where I’m going. And for me, finding a community actually happened while I was in school. So for us, there was a break in the lockdowns during the summer period, and I was just so happy to get out of my, it was not even a flat, my room and my dorm and the students who were also coming during the summer to do some work.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So I found a community with my friend, [inaudible 00:43:24]. She was from Israel, my friend, Paulina, and she’s from Poland, Swati, who’s from India, Pahlavi, who’s also from India. And I have two German friends as well. For us, it’s a community of immigrants, but we usually find a lot of common ground that we could all talk about, which is usually food and spices.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So I was able to form a community in my school during the time when nobody should be in school, which is the summer period. And we were all there just trying to catch up on what we think we would have lost during the lockdown.

Maurice Cherry:
It’s so interesting you mentioned that about food kind of being this sort of connective thing between you and other immigrants there. I just finished watching this documentary series on Netflix called High on the Hog. I think it just came out today, as the day we’re recording it, and I’m not sure if it’s available everywhere on Netflix. It may just be U.S. Netflix, not sure, but look it up.

Maurice Cherry:
So High on the Hog. It’s a four-part documentary series and the host goes from Benin, West Africa to Charleston, South Carolina, to… where else does he go? I know he goes to Texas. I feel like he goes somewhere. Oh, he goes to Philadelphia, and then he goes to Texas. And it’s sort of tracking how so much food, and vegetables, and recipes, and tastes, and spices that were there in Africa made the voyage over and became the basis of soul food here.

Maurice Cherry:
But I think sort of the connective tissue of that documentary and what you’re talking about is one, how food can be this sort of unifying factor, and how it seems like when food is on the table, and this is probably true in any culture, where foods on the table, we’re a lot more similar than we are different.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Very much so. I could attest to that. One of my friends, she’s actually doing her master’s on the intimacy of food. And just in having discussions with her, I understand all of the walls and the barriers that we think are there with food in front of us, it’s not anymore. And you are able to communicate and share experiences a lot easier just by sharing that intimate moments of eating in front of somebody or even eating with them.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I want to say, I don’t mean to embarrass you by putting this out here, but speaking of food, as I was doing my research, I saw that you are doing cooking videos on YouTube, which made me so hungry watching them. But please talk about that.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Oh my God. So during the lockdown, I was craving doubles, which is the quintessential Trinidadian breakfast. Any Trinidadian will tell you that doubles, right doubles will make you feel that you’re a Trinidadian. And you can’t ask a Trinidadian who has the best doubles, because they will always give you a different answer. But for me, doubles has grown up with me.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I remember when doubles was $1 and then moved to $1.50. When it went up to $1.50, I stopped buying doubles for a month. And then it went up to $2, and I was like, it is only going to go up from here. Doubles is the cheapest thing that you could get for breakfast, but it also satisfies you after that.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
After you party all night and you’re sweaty and you’re still drunk, you will find a doubles vendor to give you that hot [inaudible 00:47:05], and it will remind you of everything that is good in the world. And that was the feeling that I wanted, to relive when I started my cooking journey on YouTube. I am still very shy in doing videos, but I’m getting there, and I am working on it.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I brought my cookbook with me from Trinidad, which is naparima cookbook. I think it’s the book that all Trinidadians learn to cook from. And I am going through that book as though is it… I think there’s a movie called Marie & Marie, where she’s cooking through… Is it Marie? No. Julie & Julia, where she’s cooking through all of the recipes of a Julia child’s cookbook.

Maurice Cherry:
Oh yeah. Amy Adams and Meryl Streep, I think. I know what you’re talking about.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I will definitely be doing that. And I want to bring more recipes to YouTube using Swiss ingredients because I honestly thought I would not find anything that would taste like home in a restaurant, and I haven’t. So this is why I’m cooking online. And for me, it’s also a sense of bridging that gap where people think, especially in Switzerland, that a stranger is somebody who you have to be afraid of.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
But once I share food with you, you can’t be afraid of me anymore. This is me showing you my culture, showing you my side of life. And it involves a lot of flavor and all of… It involves sustainability in ways in which you may not have considered. So we use all of the food. We use all of the vegetable. We use as much parts of it as possible throughout the cooking. And I want to bring that to the university.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. That sustainability part, you mentioned, that’s also something in that documentary that I talked about that I thought was really interesting. So there’s this thing, and I think maybe this exists in other countries, but certainly here in the United States because of slavery and such there’s this notion that goes around that slaves were kind of given the bad cuts of meat or the unpalatable cuts of meat. And we learned how to cook it, use those and in varied ways like pig’s feet or pig ear or something like that.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Pig’s tail, chicken feet.

Maurice Cherry:
But this documentary showed that we’ve always been like that’s not necessarily something that came about because of slavery in America. That’s something that Africans have been doing because when they hunt and they get the animal, they use the entire animal.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. And a lot of indigenous cultures have used these things for centuries. And it’s only because this new tomb has been coined sustainability that people are now looking at how could we use as much of the products that we have as possible? Hey, hello, we’ve been doing this. You are new to the game. Let us show you how to do it.

Maurice Cherry:
Yeah. I first heard about doubles actually because of this show. Back in 2015, I interviewed, I think she might’ve been the first Trinidadian person I had on the show. Her name was Jeunanne Alkins as she has a animation company and a design company called Everything Slight Pepper.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Oh, yes.

Maurice Cherry:
And she was mentioning the name of it came from that’s her doubles order.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Yes. Every Trini you must have slight pepper. If you don’t have slight pepper, I’m not sure if you have a Trinidadian passport. If you have a little sweet sauce too, you have a Trinidad and Tobago passwords we would say for sure.

Maurice Cherry:
And I have to say your videos on YouTube, the food looks amazing. The stew chicken, the macaroni pie, keep it up.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Thank you so much.

Maurice Cherry:
It looks so good.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
It was all done with my iPhone.

Maurice Cherry:
Look, that’s what a lot of people are using. I mean, come on. I just got a new phone last month or so because I’ve been holding onto my old phone. And this thing has three cameras on the back. These phones are getting so sophisticated. Use the phone. That’s where all the good cameras are

Cherry-Ann Davis:
For me I actually had a DSLR. And when I was leaving Trinidad, I realized this is too much for me to carry. I sold my DSLR and the money that I got from it, I put it towards buying the iPhone 11 because I know in the next two to three years, I’ll be a student and I’m not making any money to buy any new phone.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So I wanted the letters and I wanted to make sure that if I do anything with regards to recording or videos of photography, at least I have something that could provide me with good quality. And I am honestly excited to share more cooking videos. And those videos were released as part of my first curatorial project.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
It’s called We Cooking and it was part of a performance festival in Zurich called Zurich Moves and which I curated my thing as 12 other Caribbean designers to present work into a publication, but it tends on a mystery of Zurich Moves. Four curators came together and we produced a publication that is going viral. It’s getting lots of buzz in the arts within Zurich. And my mind is blown. This was the first time I’ve ever done anything like this and I want to do so much more of it.

Maurice Cherry:
Well, if you don’t mind, I would love to link to your YouTube channel in the video so the audience can check them out as well. They’re really good.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Definitely. Thank you.

Maurice Cherry:
Do you feel creatively satisfied?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Right now? Yes, I do. I actually had this conversation a few weeks ago with one of my friends who still works in the bank. And she said to me, Cherry, if you did not leave the bank at the time that you left, I’m not sure you would have been able to survive because, for me, moving to Switzerland was a three-year project in which it involved at least 10 other people.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So 10 of my friends were there just cheering me on and making sure that I made my savings goals and helping me think about ways in order to make additional money to pay for my bills to move to Switzerland. However, it was called vision 2020 and it was not my goal to move to Switzerland. My goal was to move to Germany to go to design school there. When I got rejected, I had to change plans. I had to pivot really quickly.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And the friend who dropped me when I came to Switzerland, he actually came to Trinidad and he was like, “Cherry, this is a really nice school. I think you should come.” And he brought me brochures and I was like, “Hey, if Switzerland accept me, I’ll come.” And I applied and they did.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So that’s how I got here and this is how a lot of my creativity I could see the value in it now because it’s something that I’m doing and I’m doing from my heart and I’m doing the projects that I really feel passionate about. And I really want people to take notice of how passion could collide with purpose and provide inspiration for you to do things and go places that you may not have necessarily thought was within your reach before.

Maurice Cherry:
Where do you see yourself in the next five years? It’s 2026. You’re out of school by this time. What kind of work do you want to be doing?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
I want to be a writer and a lecturer. So the reason that I did my masters was to become a lecturer at the University of Trinidad and Tobago, which is one of the universities that I attended. But I am thinking now that with Zoom and Skype and the accessibility that we have for online learning, I don’t need to limit myself so geography.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I would to continue writing, design politics, and design thinking, and design critique pieces because there’s so many people and it will just react to everything the same things about design. And not looking at the nitty-gritty and the people who are being left out of the design conversations.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
And I want to say, hello, we’re here. Take a look at these with my writing. But I also want to help the next generation of designers see that anything is possible and that they could bring their authentic selves into what they are designing.

Maurice Cherry:
Just to wrap things up here, where can our audience find out more about you and about your work online?

Cherry-Ann Davis:
So online I am at sliceofcherrypye. So it’s pie with a Y. So it’s sliceofcherryP-Y-E.site. And I’m also on Instagram with the same names, sliceofcherrypye, Twitter, TikTok as well where I just make fun out of things on TikTok. Those are the places.

Maurice Cherry:
All right. Sounds good. Well, Cherry-Ann Davis, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you really for sharing your honest look at how your life has been coming from another country and being in Switzerland during this whole lockdown and everything, but also really I can tell you have a lot of deep thoughts behind the work that you do about just kind of these intersections of culture and design and history.

Maurice Cherry:
And I’m excited to see the work that you produce whether it’s through the Futuress or through your studies. I’m excited to see how you bring your culture and all this work that you’re doing into this world that perhaps in Switzerland is not ready for it, but I have a feeling that you’re going to make them ready for it whether want to be or not. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Cherry-Ann Davis:
Thank you very much, Maurice. I just want to say one thing. My project is called Waiting Self and it’s exploration of what design could look like if culture is infused into it. So if I didn’t mention that before.

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Episode 405: Cherry-Ann Davis

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